Presidential Election: 11/3/20 ---Now the President Elect Joe Biden Thread

[Bozo the kKklown]

5 minutes ago, tshile said:

Unless they think them taking a loan means they should get their money back and the rest of us should screw off. 

Why do you think you are being screwed off? This won't affect you in any way. You actually have a head start on everyone who would take part in this since you have spent years without having debt on your neck while others had to wrestle with it for a long time. Seriously man, this is about bettering society, not the weird slight you feel.

[Llevron]

Just now, tshile said:

 

Both. People are being rewarded for taking loans and the rest of us are told to **** off. We're lucky. Or my favorite, "You must be doing OK without it"

 

Those of us that try to point out it's not fair, get mocked.

 

Just want to point out that no one here is mocking you or telling you to **** off or any of the other stuff. But if you approach every conversation you have about this with this kind of anger right from the jump, maybe the problem is how you are having the conversation. I know, im one to talk. I certainly have my buttons. But, thats how i see it in this case. 

 

Just now, tshile said:

This conversation comes up many of the times when this sort of thing gets mentioned. The results are the same.

 

Like I said, maybe its you. Not that you are wrong or dont have a valid opinion. But you went from 2 to 15 on the 10 point "Im pissed" scale in a newyork ****ing minute. 

[tshile]

7 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Just want to point out that no one here is mocking you or telling you to **** off or any of the other stuff. But if you approach every conversation you have about this with this kind of anger right from the jump, maybe the problem is how you are having the conversation. I know, im one to talk. I certainly have my buttons. But, thats how i see it in this case. 

 

 

Like I said, maybe its you. Not that you are wrong or dont have a valid opinion. But you went from 2 to 15 on the 10 point "Im pissed" scale in a newyork ****ing minute. 

 

This idea of forgiving tuition debt is not new or novel. It's been around for years. I don't know what to tell you. Go back and read the threads. There's articles everywhere. I'm sure you can find plenty of people being assholes about it on twitter. 

 

It's offensive the way the people who support this speak about it. They know damn well what they're saying. I can't think of a topic I'm willing to refuse to vote against a candidate on other than this. I mean I guess super extreme stuff, but I'm really thinking more of normal politics stuff.

 

My anger is built up over years of watching people who took loans and haven't paid them off telling the rest of us that we didn't' sacrifice or don't know what sacrifice is, and that they should get tens of thousands of dollars and rest of us should get nothing. They've said their part and they obviously don't care. All i'm saying is right back at 'em. I will vote against their candidate. If she wins, I will vote against candidates in my area that run on supporting it. We'll see who wins.

 

 

10 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

You actually have a head start on everyone who would take part in this since you have spent years without having debt on your neck while others had to wrestle with it for a long time

This is what i'm talking about.

 

So my position is that I 'have a head start'

 

but everyone else needs tens of thousands of dollars given to them.

 

You obviously think I somehow lucked into free school. Nothing was lost to make it happen.

 

Maybe one day you'll figure it out.

[PleaseBlitz]

Liz Warren has no chance of actually winning.  

[TheGoodBits]

1 minute ago, PleaseBlitz said:

Liz Warren has no chance of actually winning.  

 

Certainly not if tshile has anything to do with it.  

[PleaseBlitz]

@tshile, does it make you mad when people get food stamps?  I mean, those assholes are getting thousands of dollars and here you are working, sacrificing, for your food like a sucker. 😜

[Momma There Goes That Man]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

 

I support lots of ideas for bettering the education system.

 

Giving people free money because they signed up for loans they didn't understand while telling the rest of us 'too bad' is not one of them.

 

If you were going to a universal system then arbitrarily picking a % of the population you were then going to pay back some of their expenses then yeah, you'll probably get some of the same pushback.

 

because this isn't just going to a universal system. it's going to a universal system plus paying a certain % of the population back.

 

I'm sure the people who signed up for loans and still haven't paid them off will be thrilled. They're the same people that tell me too bad. So i'll happily vote against them. Maybe one day they'll figure out that those of us that didn't take loans still had to come up with the money from somewhere. 

 

 

This mindset is one of the reasons why this country is so ****ed. You have something that will greatly benefit millions of people who are being completely screwed but because you don't personally benefit or missed the cutoff to benefit ,you hate the idea.

 

"**** everybody else, what's in it for me?" 

 

oh how far we've fallen from "ask what you can do for your country" 

 

[tshile]

3 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

@tshile, does it make you mad when people get food stamps?  I mean, those assholes are getting thousands of dollars and here you are working, sacrificing, for your food like a sucker. 😜

 

no

 

but it makes me mad that you're mocking me.

1 minute ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

This mindset is one of the reasons why this country is so ****ed. You have something that will greatly benefit millions of people who are being completely screwed but because you don't personally benefit or missed the cutoff to benefit ,you hate the idea.

 

"**** everybody else, what's in it for me?" 

 

oh how far we've fallen from "ask what you can do for your country" 

 

 

You know what? If that's the extent of how you see it then fine. That's exactly how I'll be. I'm in a great spot. I'm not the one asking for help.

 

[Fergasun]

The cost of health care in this country is a scam. The cost of a coellege education in this country is a scam. Big banking is a scam.

Financialization has destroyed the American way of life -- when Congress and the President were about to start paying down the national debt, it scared the bankers and they started overly influencing politics to blow up the national debt in late 90s, early 2000s with the housing bubble.

I want my elected officials loudly proclaiming this. Liz Warren and Bernie Sanders are the only people running who I agree on with these positions -- Warren has always scared the banksters.

When I see posters arguing about this college debt plan and free college, I can't stop but think about how financialization has split the country. We should have a country where we work to decrease the scarcities of health care and education without increased costs.

My parents 40 inch HDTV cost $2500 in 2000s. No one complains that the flat screen 65 inch 4k TV costs $500. Why doesn't that happen in health care or education??

"Pay more for less or the same".

AKA SCAM

[Bozo the kKklown]

 

 

 

27 minutes ago, tshile said:

So my position is that I 'have a head start'

 

but everyone else needs tens of thousands of dollars given to them.

 

You obviously think I somehow lucked into free school. Nothing was lost to make it happen.

That’s Universal Basic Income (which I’ve grown to not support because I see the slippery slope of using that to end funding for social programs).

 

What this is, is clearing out student loan debt. People are told to chase this college dream and have to take out of debt to earn it which in hamstrings them from succeeding in the future. This isn’t good for our society as it leads to less marriages, homeownership, retail spending, etc. That is what drives the American economy. 

 

And who the hell thinks you lucked into free school?  You have told us countless times about the work you had to do to pay for school. No one is dissing you for that. What we are getting on you about is your lack of empathy, which I have always observed about you but I think others are noticing.

 

Your stance is like not abolishing slavery because so many former slaves freed themselves through hard work and sacrifice, so other slaves should do the same. Its nonsense.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

8 minutes ago, tshile said:

You know what? If that's the extent of how you see it then fine. That's exactly how I'll be. I'm in a great spot. I'm not the one asking for help.

 

That is the extent of what you are saying. You're taking this as some perceived slight against you as if you're being told to "**** off" when you aren't. 

 

Just because some people were able to make it through their college debt unscathed and paid it off quickly and efficiently doesn't mean everyone can do it. It doesn't mean the system is just either. This is the whole "bootstraps" crap again. I did it so you should too. 

 

A system is flawed and needs to be corrected. 18 yr olds that can't even drink are allowed to take on hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt without a parental signature or even so much as guidance. As if that wasn't bad enough, tuition is astronomically higher than it needs to be so the college can profit and the interest rates are as well. This is exploitation. 

 

You have to draw the line somewhere and there is no good spot to draw it so just draw it here and now. This is the cutoff. We're sorry you missed it but acknowledge you did it the right way which is the way the unjust system was set up.

 

 

[twa]

29 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

Liz Warren has no chance of actually winning.  

 

 

Maybe if she offers enough free ****.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

Which is another fallacy. You don't get to complain about your taxes going up to pay for socialism while also calling it free **** and handouts. It's being paid for. 

[tshile]

3 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

is your lack of empathy, which I have always observed about you but I think others are noticing.

 

Your stance is like not abolishing slavery because so many former slaves freed themselves through hard work and sacrifice, so other slaves should do the same. Its nonsense.

 

I've been voting against my interest for years. The republicans policies favor me more than the dems. I've been doing it because I thought it was better for the country. So you can say that I have a lack of empathy, but you don't actually know me or know anything about me (you've been wrong countless times trying to sum me up on the boards in the past)

 

But no, that's not my stance. You keep missing the fact that her policy goes back and benefits a very specific group of people while leaving everyone else in the cold.

So it would be like freeing slaves and giving them all a house and a car and saying "hey man, you got screwed over this is the least we can do." and then telling the ones that escaped 6 months before you decided to do this to **** off, you made it out on your own so you must be doing just fine, right?

 

(obligated to note that comparing anything to slavery is cringe-worthy but you forced the issue.)

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

Just because some people were able to make it through their college debt unscathed and paid it off quickly and efficiently doesn't mean everyone can do it.

 

Right.

So you completely discount what the rest of us did to benefit those that didn't.

I'm saying make it even.

You're telling me to **** off then whining that you didn't really say that.

 

7 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

You have to draw the line somewhere and there is no good spot to draw it so just draw it here and now. This is the cutoff. We're sorry you missed it but acknowledge you did it the right way which is the way the unjust system was set up.

Yeah but you don't have to go back and forgive my classmates debt and tell me I must be doing just fine.

 

If that's what you want to do then fine, but you'll be doing it while I actively vote against you.

 

[nonniey]

What is the objective/end state? Expanding access to graduate and post graduate education or eliminating students saddled with debt?  Fairly certain making college free would severely  restrict access to college education. The the primary driver for education cost increases has been the flood of money into the system - wouldn't making college free exponentially increase the flood of money into the system with government money?  Government would have to instill price controls which would have significant impact on the supply side of the equation (Opportunities to go would be constrained).  So yes students wouldn't be straddled with debt but many (most?) would no longer be able to go at all  (Probably all those that currently can't get scholarships in lieu of loans). 

[Bozo the kKklown]

7 minutes ago, tshile said:

You keep missing the fact that her policy goes back and benefits a very specific group of people while leaving everyone else in the cold.

 

You voted for Republican party interests that did just that for the wealthy.

 

I would love to see an expansion on welfare and food stamps despite me not being poor. (was on food stamps a little when I was a child)

 

I like my current insurance plan, but I would love to see healthcare go to everyone. I would also love to see more hospitals, even if government ran, in rural communities despite me being a city dweller.

 

And more importantly, clearing student loan debt actually helps all of society because people now have money to contribute to our economy and get things rolling. People can take jobs that matches their educational background. Your house may go up in value because more people are able to afford homes, etc. This is all a good thing that helps us all, even if it is indirectly helping some.

[PeterMP]

9 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

The cost of health care in this country is a scam. The cost of a coellege education in this country is a scam. Big banking is a scam.

Financialization has destroyed the American way of life -- when Congress and the President were about to start paying down the national debt, it scared the bankers and they started overly influencing politics to blow up the national debt in late 90s, early 2000s with the housing bubble.

I want my elected officials loudly proclaiming this. Liz Warren and Bernie Sanders are the only people running who I agree on with these positions -- Warren has always scared the banksters.

When I see posters arguing about this college debt plan and free college, I can't stop but think about how financialization has split the country. We should have a country where we work to decrease the scarcities of health care and education without increased costs.

My parents 40 inch HDTV cost $2500 in 2000s. No one complains that the flat screen 65 inch 4k TV costs $500. Why doesn't that happen in health care or education??

"Pay more for less or the same".

AKA SCAM

 

It doesn't happen in both cases broadly because both cases are not generally governed by free market principles.  Not enough people pick their college bases on costs/benefit analysis (and doing so is very hard to do), and then you see the same with healthcare.  Even figuring out if a doctor is actually a "good" doctor is very difficult.

 

To sort of echo tshile's point, I went to college along time ago when it was much more affordable, but even then I knew people that were taking out loans to go out of state.  For the most part (for most states), I don't have a lot of sympathy for people that took out big loans to go to an out of state or non-state school.

 

Then for both of them there are specific issues:

 

It doesn't happen in education because education costs are tied to taxes and state funding for higher education, even when corrected for inflation is going down.  And it has gone down as the number of people going to college have gone up.  By and large, colleges are being asked to do more (teach more students) with less money (from the state).  The money then has to come from somewhere to fill the gap.

 

I will point out since the end of the recession in state college tuition increases haven't been that bad on average.

 

https://trends.collegeboard.org/college-pricing/figures-tables/2018-19-state-tuition-and-fees-public-four-year-institutions-state-and-five-year-percentage

 

7% increase over 5 years on average and even negative for some states.

 

It doesn't happen with health care because for 2 reasons:

 

1.  There  are barriers associated with safety in getting into the generic (non-patent protected) market more so then other industries.  Even generic drugs have to go through an FDA approval process that makes it difficult, time consuming, and costly to bring a new generic to the market.  This then stifles the number of generics brought to the market and competition.

 

2.  Unlike tvs, that all broadly do the same thing (entertain us), new different drugs do new different things.  Yes the tv I have is bigger than what my parents had when I was a teenager, but other than that, it does pretty much the same thing.  I have family members that likely would be dead if they had to use the same drugs/medical practices that existed when I was a teenager.

 

[tshile]

5 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

You voted for Republican party interests that did just that for the wealthy.

I voted republican once i think. I was away in college in 2004 and didn't care at all and didn't vote for Bush. I identified as a republican, but I didn't vote. I voted for McCain in 2008. I don't know that I've voted for a republican since.  Maybe Vogel. I'd have to go check.

 

This is one of those things I was talking about where you try to sum me on up the boards and you're wrong. I've voted for democrats far more often than republicans.

 

 

Quote

I would love to see an expansion on welfare and food stamps despite me not being poor. (was on food stamps a little when I was a child)

Same here. Though I was never on food stamps. Although we might have been when I was really young and they just never told me, my parents are private like that and we were absolutely very poor at one point. Like sleeping on the floor of a trailer poor. I don't think we were but i suppose it's possible.

 

Quote

I like my current insurance plan, but I would love to see healthcare go to everyone. I would also love to see more hospitals, even if government ran, in rural communities despite me being a city dweller.

Same here.

 

Quote

 

And more importantly, clearing student loan debt actually helps all of society because people now have money to contribute to our economy and get things rolling. People can take jobs that matches their educational background. Your house may go up in value because more people are able to afford homes, etc. This is all a good thing that helps us all, even if it is indirectly helping some.

 

I'm cool with it. I'm just not cool with completely neglecting everyone else that paid a **** ton for school too just because they *gasp* found a way to pay for it aside from loans.

 

 

[PeterMP]

53 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

This isn’t good for our society as it leads to less marriages, homeownership, retail spending, etc. That is what drives the American economy. 

 

I think that it has a net benefit on the US economy is extremely unlikely.

 

It isn't like the people that have the money that is going to be used to pay off the debt are hiding it under their mattress.

 

It is in the economy doing something.  Let's say they put it in the bank.  This means that banks now have more money to lend, which means that can (should) lower interest rates, which means it is easier to buy a house, which means in fact we propping up home ownership.

 

I think income inequality is an issue so I'm not overly going to complain about the idea of taking money from the most wealthy Americans to do much of anything else, but I don't find this a very appealing approach, and think your general argument of the benefits to everybody is likely false.

[Fergasun]

My TV now has an internet jack or wi-fi, can stream different file types, has apps, and a bunch more input types.

Did math or engineering or writing history papers change much?

My point is more of a generic pissy one... i think it is finacialization that has screwed up education, health care...

[PeterMP]

8 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

My TV now has an internet jack or wi-fi, can stream different file types, has apps, and a bunch more input types.

Did math or engineering or writing history papers change much?

My point is more of a generic pissy one... i think it is finacialization that has screwed up education, health care...

 

If you read what I posted, you would have noticed that I didn't mention new benefits when talking about college.  Just health care.

 

Though, I will point out that engineering and math have been significantly altered by the advent of the internet, wi-fi, and etc.

 

Engineering students today not only have to learn the basics of engineering still, but also learn how to make aps.

[Springfield]

Hello?  College dropout over here!

 

Dont you think that giving everyone a free college education will devalue the importance of a college education?  Or further put people who don’t attend college at a disadvantage and maybe simply just drive those people to military service instead?

 

Dont you think that this will create an America where basic administrative assistant jobs and sales jobs will require a college degree instead of a high school diploma?  

 

What about vocational learning and skilled trades?  Will you eventually need a college degree to be a plumber or electrician?

 

Will the market be so saturated with college grads that it’s simply just another notch in the educational rung?

 

What happens to non-college educated people?

 

I don’t like the idea of just giving it out, especially if they are of working age and they should be paying into taxes and or public health care system.

 

Lastly, I think this is just a ploy by Warren to get young people and 20 somethings to vote for her.  Of course it’ll never pass Congress but it’ll definitely get these people who are upside down on their loans in her corner.

[Renegade7]

Free education can't actually be free, see free healthcare.

 

It would benefit me a lot to forgive all student loan debt, but what would be better is caping the growth from interest and stop trying make everyone pay it back on some 10 year plan.  The payments should be made realistic while tackling the costs for people coming behind us.

 

If we go this route, why not just forgive all credit card debt for certain income brackets for having to play catch up?  Why not just forgive all nation state debt around the world period and start over?  That's what forgiving all student debt sounds like to me, admirable but not really addressing why they feel behind to begin with.

[tshile]

16 minutes ago, Springfield said:

Will the market be so saturated with college grads that it’s simply just another notch in the educational rung?

 

 

 

It already is in some fields. Like mine. Where having a degree now means nothing. It’ll get you in the door for an interview but so many people have degrees that don’t have the actual education they’re supposed to, that you have to grill candidates to see if they actually learned anything in college.  Because a lot of them didn’t. 

 

And to be fair some that is likely on bad teachers and such; things out of the students control (how is a 20 year old supposed to know the teacher isn’t doing a good job anyways?)

 

i share your concerns with the rest of your post. Not against the idea but have the same  concerns. 

[Renegade7]

23 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

It already is in some fields. Like mine. Where having a degree now means nothing. It’ll get you in the door for an interview but so many people have degrees that don’t have the actual education they’re supposed to, that you have to grill candidates to see if they actually learned anything in college.  Because a lot of them didn’t. 

 

And to be fair some that is likely on bad teachers and such; things out of the students control (how is a 20 year old supposed to know the teacher isn’t doing a good job anyways?)

 

i share your concerns with the rest of your post. Not against the idea but have the same  concerns. 

 

Agreed.  I wish more fields had the amount of certifications IT does to help separate from just having degrees and help specialize.  Some can argue that's gotten out of hand as well, but it's better then just having a degree.