How do you feel about the Receiving corps?

[Dark Acre]

OTOH, Vernon Davis looks like he found the fountain of youth.  Granted he only has 8 catches, but for 160 yds!  I would not be surprised if they go to him more coming out of the bye.

[CTskin]

10 hours ago, XxSpearheadxX said:

He's not soft, anyone who watched him play in college knows that he is a tough SOB getting those catches. He does seem to be fragile recently though as those who haven't been able to watch him in the pros because he has rarely been active  know . 

 

Soft and fragile are different things. I keep waiting for his injuries to be an early career blip like they are for many players. (fingers crossed) 

 

Agreed. He has that slim Djax/RG body type that just doesn't take contact well. So, not surprisingly, it's starting to become apparent that he has a similar proneness to injury. Fragile.

 

I believe you were the one who mentioned the diving catch that he made mid-game, which really wasn't a catch. He dove, was banged up, but had the alertness and toughness to get off the field and go down on the sideline so that the play couldn't be challenged. Not soft.

 

My response to the overall thread is that the WR corp isn't too strong at the moment and I don't think Ds are too scared. Doctson is close but the lack of practice is evident, Crowder has a hammy, Reed hasn't been healthy in a decade, Pryor is a QB, Grant is Grant, and Vernon can get it done, but isn't a premier talent. All that being said, if Crowder and Reed are healthy coming out of the bye and Doctson can take the next step over the next few weeks, then we'll be cooking with grease. 

[NeverSurrender]

Dont give up on Pryor guys, the best thing he has going for him is that Kirk will encourage him everyday at practice.  It will take some more time but I think he will come around. 

[PartyPosse]

21 hours ago, beachboy757 said:

Not sure exactly what happened. This play was mid game like you had mentioned The ball was thrown low and in front of Doc and he dove and got it.  He did not get right back up but since the camera panned away and there was no mention of an injury I figured he was ok. What's interesting is that I did not hear anything about him hurting his shoulder on that play near the end of the game.

The cameras actually did pan to him on the ground on the sidelines being looked at. He also looked like he was in considerable pain.

 

 

[skinny21]

32 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

Dont give up on Pryor guys, the best thing he has going for him is that Kirk will encourage him everyday at practice.  It will take some more time but I think he will come around. 

Which prior guys?

 

Seriously though - Pryor has the physical tools, but there are major flaws to his game right now.  I can think of three easy things that can help him in the short term.  

1) focus - look the ball in and forget about defenders (the incoming variety).  

2) refine routes - worry about your precision, pay attention to your steps and your angle out of breaks.  

3) Cousins needs to make sure he's putting the right touch on balls.  Gunning it to a guy within 10 yards or so yards of you is not usually a recipe for success.  Yes, you got the ball to the right spot, but you've gotta maximize the receiver's chance of catching it.  

 

As as it stands now though (and I've said it before), Pryor is really close to being a liability.  Jay's gotta make sure he's not using kid gloves with Pryor - if he's running routes improperly, put in Grant or Doctson, call up Harris or Davis from the PS, etc.  I'm hopeful Pryor's running routes better in practice than games, because if he's doing it in practice, he isn't earning his PT... and that's an even bigger problem.  

 

I don't want to get too down on Pryor, but he's cost us an easy td and killed multiple drives with drops.  I expect these things to improve as he gets more comfortable, but we're at a point where it might be better to sit him.  

 

With all of that said, if he isn't having these same problems in practice, then I can understand a somewhat longer leash for him.  I would seriously consider pulling him on 3rd downs though.... you can overcome a drop on 1st and 2nd, but he can't be single handily stopping drives.  

 

I don't usually rant about players - I'm generally forgiving - but this offense needs all the help it can get.  

[PartyPosse]

1 hour ago, CTskin said:

believe you were the one who mentioned the diving catch that he made mid-game, which really wasn't a catch. He dove, was banged up, but had the alertness and toughness to get off the field and go down on the sideline so that the play couldn't be challenged. Not soft.

Looked like a catch to me. Ball was in his hands and didn't move when it hit the ground. Had that been challenged the call would have stayed.

[CTskin]

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

Looked like a catch to me. Ball was in his hands and didn't move when it hit the ground. Had that been challenged the call would have stayed.

I like Doctson, but that wasn't a catch. The ball was cradled between his chest, arm and the ground, which is fine, but as he bounces off the ground, the ball clearly moved. 

 

It was nice that Jon Gruden was in the booth and said that it was a catch during the one replay they showed. I think this had a bit of a memory clouding effect. Everyone who I was with thought Doctson was hurt and that it would be challenged, and inevitably overturned, so we couldnt believe that he got off the field and we got the play off.

 

Also, very telling, you don't hustle off the field like that when you're injured if you're sure you caught the ball...

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I definitely didn't think it was a catch either.  I was glad to see them get a play off before it could be challenged.

[PartyPosse]

57 minutes ago, CTskin said:

Also, very telling, you don't hustle off the field like that when you're injured if you're sure you caught the ball...

You do if you get winded. You jog off normally, realize you can't take in air and then it hits you. I'll have to see the play again.

[RandyHolt]

I think the best routes for Pryor and Cousins may be those that do not command the utmost precision and timing. Like the famous slant which they seem to have less than a 50% completion rate. Let Grant run the slants for 5 yards. 

 

Pryor's strength is his aestheticism / size. I think he needs to be able to run to the ball more, to be used effectively. His skills are most visible when you see a tiny DB struggling to keep up with him. In short, the deeper vs short stuff. Use his body to shield defenders.

 

I think Jay needs to purge the bad routes out. Maybe a reverse or screen to him early in the game can help.

 

 

[CTskin]

6 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

You do if you get winded. You jog off normally, realize you can't take in air and then it hits you. I'll have to see the play again.

No offense intended, but I think you're misremembering the play. He was noticeably shaken up/injured immediately and didn't get up after the catch.

[Peregrine]

4 hours ago, dyst said:

Pryor is on pace to have 52 receptions for 744 yards and 4 TDs.

Doctson is on pace to have 12 receptions for 320 yards and 4 TDs.

Crowder is on pace to have 56 receptions for 424 yards for 0 TDS.

 

I assume you were being sarcastic in your reply but if you were being serious, I can't imagine anyone would think this group right now is a successful WR corps. 

I cant imagine anyone would extrapolate stats for 4 games and think that would be any where close to representative for a season.

 

Unless they have a crazy narrative they want to throw out, like Jamison Crowder sucks.  You said it.  It will always be your words. "Crowder sucks".  You know, most of us HAVE been fans for more than 2 months and have watched him play over the years right? But no, you cant get past the really really obvious fact that we have simply run the ball a lot more because its been effective. You dont know how to judge football and football players, so all you have are base stats to tell you what is what.

 

So let me drop the truth: The redskins receiving stats show we are 6th in the league in yards per completion, and we are 4th in the entire NFL in yards per pass attempt. Stats are king right?

[NoCalMike]

The thing about Crowder people forget is that he was drafted to be a PR....he only every got snaps as a WR after impressing coaches.  The absence of D-jax's deep threat and Garcon's reliability are going to hurt his production until Doctson & Pryor fill those rolls more consistently.

 

It's not that Crowder sucks or is great, it's the fact that he was in the perfect role & situation before, and now the situation has changed.  Look at Ryan Grant this season.  As soon as he started holding onto the ball, he suddenly looks like a viable option for Cousins.  That is how quick things can change in the NFL.

[Leonard Washington]

I think they are using Pryor all wrong.  Don't ask him to run precise timing routes. 

 

 

 

[CTskin]

48 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

I cant imagine anyone would extrapolate stats for 4 games and think that would be any where close to representative for a season.

 

Unless they have a crazy narrative they want to throw out, like Jamison Crowder sucks.  You said it.  It will always be your words. "Crowder sucks".  You know, most of us HAVE been fans for more than 2 months and have watched him play over the years right? But no, you cant get past the really really obvious fact that we have simply run the ball a lot more because its been effective. You dont know how to judge football and football players, so all you have are base stats to tell you what is what.

 

So let me drop the truth: The redskins receiving stats show we are 6th in the league in yards per completion, and we are 4th in the entire NFL in yards per pass attempt. Stats are king right?

The thing is that Chris Thompson makes up a good portion of both of those stats... Sure, he catches passes, but he's a running back. I only say this because this thread is about wide receivers.

 

The truth is that we don't have the WR corp that we hoped to have. Pryor may pan out, but clearly isn't there yet. Doctson is in the same boat. The point is that we don't have any premier WRs... and that's okay. After having years of DJax/Garcon, we're not used to this, but it's not a knock on us. We should see only improvement among this bunch over the remainder of the season.

[RandyHolt]

We already know, but Vernon Davis dominates in the open field. Let's try him out wide at least a few times a game, perhaps until a wideout can assert themselves. Maybe his snaps are managed... sigh.

 

 

[dyst]

3 hours ago, Peregrine said:

I cant imagine anyone would extrapolate stats for 4 games and think that would be any where close to representative for a season.

 

Unless they have a crazy narrative they want to throw out, like Jamison Crowder sucks.  You said it.  It will always be your words. "Crowder sucks".  You know, most of us HAVE been fans for more than 2 months and have watched him play over the years right? But no, you cant get past the really really obvious fact that we have simply run the ball a lot more because its been effective. You dont know how to judge football and football players, so all you have are base stats to tell you what is what.

 

So let me drop the truth: The redskins receiving stats show we are 6th in the league in yards per completion, and we are 4th in the entire NFL in yards per pass attempt. Stats are king right?

Had a long reply but I went ahead and revised it to just say “if you are happy about their production so far, not much I can say”.

 

[LaxBuddy21]

I think everyone needs to relax a bit. Let's see if they have the kinks worked out by midseason before we start worrying about who is good and who isn't. I want to see improvement as well but willing to give it some time to develop. I think Kirk can make both Pryor and Doctson into weapons the more they work together. 

[PartyPosse]

6 hours ago, CTskin said:

No offense intended, but I think you're misremembering the play. He was noticeably shaken up/injured immediately and didn't get up after the catch.

You're right. I thought he grabbed it, looked a little dazed but jogged off. Didn't realize he went down after the catch.

5 hours ago, Peregrine said:

cant imagine anyone would extrapolate stats for 4 games and think that would be any where close to representative for a season.

Agreed. I doubt OBJ ends up with 800 receiving yards and Amari Cooper 420

[RandyHolt]

Winston just threw a slant to Brate, and it was a soft touch pass and an easy convert. I would like to see Kirk try that to Pryor, make it so that no one would drop it. Yes including us fans. The color guy was beside himself, saying why make it have to be a circus catch, its only an 8 yard pass.

[skinny21]

31 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Winston just threw a slant to Brate, and it was a soft touch pass and an easy convert. I would like to see Kirk try that to Pryor, make it so that no one would drop it. Yes including us fans. The color guy was beside himself, saying why make it have to be a circus catch, its only an 8 yard pass.

My initial reaction was "yes, exactly"... then I started wondering why Kirk is throwing some of the lasers he is when it isn't warranted (as in, gunning it on some shorter throws).  If we assume that Kirk knows this (he does) and that he can (he can), why is he doing it?  Only explanation I can come up with beyond brain freeze is that he's not satisfied with the way the route was run.  I could see it as his way to beat the coverage that the route itself should have beat.  I have no idea though, just spitballing.  

[TSO]

18 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

My initial reaction was "yes, exactly"... then I started wondering why Kirk is throwing some of the lasers he is when it isn't warranted (as in, gunning it on some shorter throws).  If we assume that Kirk knows this (he does) and that he can (he can), why is he doing it?  Only explanation I can come up with beyond brain freeze is that he's not satisfied with the way the route was run.  I could see it as his way to beat the coverage that the route itself should have beat.  I have no idea though, just spitballing.  

 

Or he was throwing it into traffic and he didn’t want to give anyone a chance to break on it, especially not the aggressive and opportunistic KC DBs? Honestly, that’s what you normally do on slants. It’s extremely dangerous not to rocket those in there unless the receiver just got major separation and isn’t running into other defender’s zones in the middle of the field. Which is rare on those routes. 

 

And I know I don’t have to tell you this, skinny, as you’ve always been on top of it, but Kirk is known for throwing “catchable balls”, it’s one of his best attributes. So much so that there have been many who question his arm strength because they assume his throws that come out soft are him trying his hardest. I honestly don’t think this is a legit criticism.  

 

Receivers at the pro level should be able to make those catches in their sleep. Pryor constantly practices on a jugs machine that’s shooting the ball at him even harder and at closer range than that. It’s on him that it isn’t translating to the games. YET. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

7 hours ago, Leonard Washington said:

I think they are using Pryor all wrong.  Don't ask him to run precise timing routes. 

 

 

I agree with this. They know he's raw. Let him take over the DJax role. Send him deep and let his athleticism take over. Get him on screens. Send him on deep drags where he gets the ball after he's thru the middle and can be dynamic in space   

[DC Lumber Co.]

8 hours ago, Leonard Washington said:

I think they are using Pryor all wrong.  Don't ask him to run precise timing routes. 

I get the desperation to get our receivers going... But, no.

Pryor is a 1 year wonder at this point, Jay Gruden's offense is not. Not only that, but we have no shortage of weapons to lean on in the interim while waiting for Pryor or Doctson to emerge.

It would be different if our offense was struggling, or we had no wins to force our hand and be impatient with Pryor/Doctson.

You don't just scrap a proven, potent offensive scheme and the west-coast route concepts within it to get a receiver and his stat sheet a jump-start. Pryor showed in the off-season that he appears to have the drive and work ethic to become an effective receiver within this scheme. Even Kirk seems to be behind him due to this aspect of his personality. The QB is pushing him, making a concerted effort to support him and his development in any way he can, and has been outspoken in said support. That gives me confidence that he will eventually blossom into what we hoped he could be when we signed him. It's just taking longer than we expected for him to put it all together, which honestly should have been more expected for how new he is to the position. He's really about equal to Doctson in development at this point if you think about it. It was easy to treat him like most other wideouts coming off a 1k yard season and expect him to repeat the performance if not exceed it, but Pryor is about as unique of a situation as it gets. He has 1st round natural talent with 6th round/small school/UDFA-level experience & knowledge of his position (and that's being generous). He’s one of maybe a half dozen players to make the position switch he did with any success, and amongst those peers of his, he's the only one that didn't make the switch immediately following their respective college careers, a considerable disadvantage for a position change that is rarely successful, if attempted at all to begin with.

I honestly think he was the beneficiary of opposing defenses disrespecting any QB that was under center for the Browns, and Pryor was surprising defensive backs with his speed and athleticism to get behind them for big plays.

What he did show was that he is an insane height/weight/speed - wide receiver prototype, in the vein of Calvin Johnson. That alone is enough to warrant the 1 year deal he received, but they were largely playing sandlot football over there in Cleveland last year.

This year, I think we all bought into the off-season hype too hard when it came to Pryor in-particular. He no longer has the element of surprise working in his favor as an unknown at the position last year. He's a Raw physical specimen that is the most raw in his route-running which is magnified in Jay's offense that's so predicated on timing. In hindsight, his soft market makes a ton more sense than Zach Brown's (which remains inexplicable).

I truly believe that the game hasn't slowed down for him yet. It explains the concentration drops we are seeing in-game that have been a surprise considering all the attention his acrobatic grabs received in training camp. It makes sense to me at least. This summer the catches we saw came with zero pressure, and often times were in 1-on-1 drills where he was guaranteed to be targeted regardless if his route gave him separation/was run correctly/etc. Once he gets the timing, depth, and speed of the routes down to being second nature, him and Kirk will really begin to click and the drops will go down immediately, IMO. It's the type of situation that when it all does come together, he's just going to go OFF one game near the middle of the year.

I'm the most curious as to who will emerge as the #1 when it's all said and done. Will it be Pryor with his better top end spend for the big play? Or will it be Doctson due to his knack for the tough catches that move the chains coupled with his elite ability to come down with red zone opportunity-balls? Or will we get lucky for once and have them both hit their respective potential? If they do, my money would be on Pryor finishing with better YPC but Doctson having more TDs.

It really could go either way. They both possess immense potential in their own unique ways and I'm excited to see who steps up.....OR.... They both bust and we're back to the drawing board this off-season at outside receiver. For some reason I'm confident at least one of the two will pan out this time though.

[RandyHolt]

I don't expect anyone to emerge as Kirk's top target.  It sure makes game planning for us a real pickle. Jay tried to make Pryor it in week 1 with the 11 targets, but he was forced to dial back (4, 4, 5).  We are by committee. Learn it. Live it. Know it. Don't start any of our wideouts in fantasy.

 

Maybe in time for Kirk and Pryor to bolt at year end, they will find a rhythm and chemistry, but our receiver core is Jekyll and Hyde right now and see no reason for that to change any time soon. They all pitch in enough for Kirk to post good numbers. Maybe Crowder has been injured for his last 10 games, and comes out of the bye healthy and steals the top dog WR slot. I just dumped Crowder from my fantasy team in case you wonder why he breaks out.

 

The game plan seems to be that everyone gets 2-4 targets, with Pryor our lead dog a few more here and there.

 

How many years after the making of Jekyll and Hyde will it be easier to stop using that expression. Talk about withstanding the test of time. The expression still stands up 132 years later.

 

That pickle?