The political thread that helps us understand each other

[brandymac27]

I want REAL discussion from ALL parties. I want to try and understand other people's points of view with regards to ALL things politics, specifically: the economy, immigration, entitlement programs (food stamps, medicaid, etc), foreign policy, etc. 

 

I am a very liberal person. I vote democrat because I feel that party seems to help the people who are really needy the most. Even if I don't agree with a candidate's policy on foreign policy or the economy, I will vote for them 9 times out of 10 based off of what their stance is on things like entitlement programs, immigration, and education.

 

I don't want this to turn into an argumentative thread. I want this to be a thread were we can all be honest, voice our opinions, and explain WHY we feel the way we do about political issues. 

 

My hope is that this will help us really understand other people's view points who are different from our own.

 

I'll start by saying that another reason I identify myself as a liberal is because I am pro choice, I don't think the government should intervene in a woman's choice of healthcare of ANY kind. I also think that a person can't be Pro Life, yet NOT be ok with funding programs like food stamps or medicaid. To me, that's completely hypocritical. How can you want to save one life but not another??? Either we save all or none!

 

Now, I'm saying the above only as an example to start honest conversation. I do NOT want this to be an abortion thread. I want this to be a thread about EVERYTHING that people are passionate about that influences them to vote however they choose. 

 

So, why is it you vote the way you do, or what is it that really influences your vote???? Did you grow up with liberal or conservative parents and you've just stuck to that, or are there other issues that mean a lot to you? 

[skinsmarydu]

I'm with her.

[Major Harris]

There is no such thing as a political thread that isn't a argument.  we can always dream i guess.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I've come to realize that both parties, over the years, want to impose their will by telling everyone else what to do.  Both parties claim they're for "freedom" but love to tell people what their beliefs should be and how they should be living their lives.

 

Liberals:  are for pro choice, pro gay marriage, pro weed legalization.  Limit the 2nd amendment.  And higher taxes, because the government knows what's best for your money.  They usually claim to be open minded until the second you disagree with them and then you're a racist or a sexist or some other word to describe you as morally inferior while making themselves feel better.

 

Conservatives:  are anti abortion, anti gay marriage, yet somehow think they're purveying the last bastion of "freedom."  They love to quote the Founding Fathers but when it comes to "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," it has to be on their terms.  They're usually for lower taxes.  They like to wave flags, beat their chests, give thanks to the military a lot and say they're true patriots.  

 

People are going to disagree on a lot of things.  I think I learned this in the first grade and that hasn't changed.  So when I see someone on facebook ranting about how much they love Trump or how Hillary is amazeballs, I just roll my eyes.  I truly think social media has done this society a disservice.  Now everyone has a platform (twitter, facebook, blogs) where they can spout their beliefs and feel good about themselves when people like their post or re-tweet their clever 140 character rant.  They think what they have to share matters.  I don't get involved anymore because at the end of the day I don't care what they have to say and I'm pretty sure they don't care about my opinion either.  I don't have enough energy to care about others who might disagree with me and why their stance is wrong.  You'll never catch me at a protest.

 

That said....  I just want to be left alone and not have to pay a lot of taxes due to the fact that I think the government is wasteful.  I'd be happy to pay "my fair share" if the government was at a surplus and running efficiently but as far as I can tell it's not.  Each year I look at what I paid in taxes and wonder where the **** it went.  The government is like a dumbass 16 year old begging mommy and daddy for 150 bucks for designer jeans.   

 

I'll end it on this:  The older I get, the less of a **** I give.  I don't care who gets married.  I don't care who has an abortion.  I like my guns.  Don't tell me what to do and don't bother me.  

 

We don't get 100% control in life on a lot of things.  Very few things.  But one thing we get to control in life is how we treat each other on a daily basis.  It's probably also one of the hardest things we can do, too.  I try to keep that in mind each day and be respectful of everyone around me, go out of my way to do something nice for a stranger and hope that despite whatever differences we might have that they feel that way, too.  

 

Anyway, feel free to disagree on how I view things but you'll probably understand how I already view your response  

[LD0506]

Article relevant to the topic..........

 

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170131-why-wont-some-people-listen-to-reason

 

Debate is arguing in a civil, logical fashion. I'm a YUGE fan of argument, it's fun, usually productive and instructive, we just all could use a refresher course in the proper manner to do it.

 

Right now, passions are inflamed the same way that invasive surgery results in inflammation, you have to treat that first before any further treatments can be efficacious. I am basically sitting it out (aside from entertaining snarkosity) until the swelling goes down.

 

[skinsmarydu]

14 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

I've come to realize that both parties, over the years, want to impose their will by telling everyone else what to do.  Both parties claim they're for "freedom" but love to tell people what their beliefs should be and how they should be living their lives.

 

Liberals:  are for pro choice, pro gay marriage, pro weed legalization.  Limit the 2nd amendment.  And higher taxes, because the government knows what's best for your money.  They usually claim to be open minded until the second you disagree with them and then you're a racist or a sexist or some other word to describe you as morally inferior while making themselves feel better.

 

Conservatives:  are anti abortion, anti gay marriage, yet somehow think they're purveying the last bastion of "freedom."  They love to quote the Founding Fathers but when it comes to "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," it has to be on their terms.  They're usually for lower taxes.  They like to wave flags, beat their chests, give thanks to the military a lot and say they're true patriots.  

 

I can see all of that, despite being a bleeding heart.

[Fergasun]

The left vs. right / liberal vs. conservative argument is a red herring at best.

 

The real political scism is up vs. down, as in rich vs. poor.  I started my political journey on the right, and shifted to the left.  I voted for Bush twice, another GOP (not McCain), and then with Obama and Hillary.

 

Both parties are sold out to the wealthy, the banks are destroying the country with "over financialization" -- and no one is willing to talk about this in mainstream political discussion.

 

Distortions in education, housing, and health care market are killing the "down" segment in America, and it is related to financialization / cheap credit.  

 

Just like our TVs and computers, education and health care should cost less over time --- housing values should be stable.

 

Because banks and financiers have political power, they have baked and forced inflation into all those areas, threatening the stability of the country. 

 

No one in government is talking about this, bur we are sowing disaster with the past 30 years of "debt-sumption"... 

[s0crates]

1 hour ago, Major Harris said:

There is no such thing as a political thread that isn't a argument.  we can always dream i guess.

 

Indeed. Even the OP makes an argument or two and asks for reasoned dialogue. How could it be otherwise? 

 

I think her meaning is she doesn't want it to be acrimonious, which may be a tall order, but I think it is worthwhile to try. In politics, the best we can do is sit down and reason together. 

 

I'll add that I think a thread of this sort fills a niche. For example, I noticed that the immigration thread has a lot of posts that have less to do with immigration and more to do with justifying ones political leanings and voting decisions.

 

 

[Springfield]

Compromise is something that we are sorely missing in today's politics.

[Spaceman Spiff]

21 minutes ago, s0crates said:

 

Indeed. Even the OP makes an argument or two and asks for reasoning. How could it be otherwise? 

 

I think her meaning is she doesn't want it to be acrimonious. 

 

Bernie sucks.

 

 

[LD0506]

22 minutes, how'd it take that long?

[Weganator]

1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

That said....  I just want to be left alone and not have to pay a lot of taxes due to the fact that I think the government is wasteful.  I'd be happy to pay "my fair share" if the government was at a surplus and running efficiently but as far as I can tell it's not.  Each year I look at what I paid in taxes and wonder where the **** it went.  The government is like a dumbass 16 year old begging mommy and daddy for 150 bucks for designer jeans.   

 

I'll end it on this:  The older I get, the less of a **** I give.  I don't care who gets married.  I don't care who has an abortion.  I like my guns.  Don't tell me what to do and don't bother me.  

 

We don't get 100% control in life on a lot of things.  Very few things.  But one thing we get to control in life is how we treat each other on a daily basis.  It's probably also one of the hardest things we can do, too.  I try to keep that in mind each day and be respectful of everyone around me, go out of my way to do something nice for a stranger and hope that despite whatever differences we might have that they feel that way, too.  

 

Anyway, feel free to disagree on how I view things but you'll probably understand how I already view your response  

 Wholeheartedly agree.

 

A point I would like to add to this is that Americans are so used to the quality that is given to them thru the competitive free market that I don't think they truly understand the impact of changing over to a more government-centric approach. There is no competition to the US government inside these borders. What makes someone think that when they are wholly dependent upon the government that its services will be of any quality at all?

 

Why isn't government just as likely to be an even bigger Comcast (insert other semi monopolized, highly unpopular business) that you have no /  little control to change after its competitors are gone? Which program(s) currently in practice today would you point to to alleviate these concerns? 

[Riggo-toni]

I am quasi-Libertarian. I am a staunch supporter of free trade and curbing the growth of government spending. I am not blanket anti-regulation, but I think regulations should be objectively reviewed for cost effectiveness. For example, I would prefer a straight carbon tax and other green taxes over things like cap and trade. 

 

I am pro-immigration, but all immigrants must learn English, should not be eligible for affirmative action or unemployment benefits, and those that commit even petty crimes should be sent back. In particular, I think those who graduate from advanced science, tech and medical degrees here should be welcome to stay here. The easiest way to avoid the imminent insolvency of entitlement programs of Social Security and Medicare is to bring in young high earners from other countries.

 

I absolutely do not care what consenting adults do in the privacy of their homes. I don't care who gets married. If western civilization can survive Britney Spears reproducing, we can survive two dudes getting hitched.

 

I don't even drink, but I support legalized marijuana. In particular, I am a strong proponent of medical marijuana. Here I will confess something of a personal agenda - my wife is a chronic pain sufferer thanks to the scourge of lupus, but does not want to take opioids. It is mind boggling to me that our government allows prescriptions for synthetic heroin, but won't allow such for non THC cannabis.

 

I am for legalized prostitution. The Dutch have the best solution in this regard. Zone it to certain areas, require a license which requires proof of age and regular medical exams (paid for by a modest tax on such services), and provide counseling/exit services for working girls.

 

Areas where I differ strongly from orthodox libertarian ideology - I support government research. The balance is providing enough money to produce results, without allocating so much money that congressional porkers steer it away from valuable research to bacon for their home districts. I also don't believe for a minute that corporations will self regulate. In particular, the financial industry must have significant oversight. If something is too big to fail, then by definition it is not subject to market forces and requires at least some degree of supervision.

 

I was a Reagan republican, but between father and son, the Bush family destroyed everything I liked about the GOP and turned it into a party of Neo-Nixonian theocrats. My skepticism of government programs is in no small part influenced by the time I spent living in Europe.

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, Weganator said:

Why isn't government just as likely to be an even bigger Comcast (insert other semi monopolized, highly unpopular business) that you have no /  little control to change after its competitors are gone? Which program(s) currently in practice today would you point to to alleviate these concerns? 

 

1.  I think you are misrepresenting the views of many people on a large number of issues.  I don't know anybody that really wants to get rid of all private entities.

 

2.  Right off the bat, most people don't get to vote for the CEO or board controlling Comcast. (stock holders do, and if you are are stock holder in Comcast, they are actually doing well.  I'm not particularly upset with Comcast as a stock holder (indirectly) even though I've cut my cable cord.  For them to see their stock continue to go up and high profits the way they have in the face of more and diverse competition is actually a testament to the quality of their management.  You might not like what you are receiving from them, but the people that REALLY matter do.  Private entities only really care about their consumers happy to the extent that is necessary to keep their stock holders happy.)

 

3.  (Long term) Failure of government is a failure of the people.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.

 

Any system is going to have failure and inefficiency.  People that rail against government inefficiency frequently do not take into account similar inefficiency in private industry. 

[skinny21]

49 minutes ago, Weganator said:

 Wholeheartedly agree.

 

A point I would like to add to this is that Americans are so used to the quality that is given to them thru the competitive free market that I don't think they truly understand the impact of changing over to a more government-centric approach. There is no competition to the US government inside these borders. What makes someone think that when they are wholly dependent upon the government that its services will be of any quality at all?

 

Why isn't government just as likely to be an even bigger Comcast (insert other semi monopolized, highly unpopular business) that you have no /  little control to change after its competitors are gone? Which program(s) currently in practice today would you point to to alleviate these concerns? 

For me, the argument over business vs government comes down to 1) greed, 2) power.  Theoretically, people have a say in both.  In business, consumers get to choose which companies they buy from and can therefore adjust the market (which businesses succeed, etc.).  In Government, people have a say through representation.  

They both have a stake in power.  

The issue I have is with businesses is the bottom line.  Private prisons are going to care more about money than the prison population, for example.  I feel that most government institutions that we see as 'failing' are more often due to budget problems - competition for good teachers in schools, more training for law enforcement officers, more resources for mental health facilities, etc.  

 

Obviously this is an over simplification.  If the leadership of either businesses or governments are decent people, they will want to do what is best for all as best they can.  Neither is necessarily/inherently 'better' than the other, but overall, I like having a say in things, and that leads me to side with government more often.  Get the money out of politics and I think we (the people) can shape our lives in a more positive manner than if we leave it to the businesses.  

 

Honestly though, engagement probably makes the most difference.  If enough people boycott (or buy American/Green/etc.) vote, we can make our will heard.  Unfortunately, we (myself included) spend a disproportionate amount of our time on entertainment rather than engagement.  

 

I really don't like:

the focus on wedge issues (abortion/gun rights/sexual preference)

the power of the media (actually, the fact that the 'news' has skewed to being driven by almost solely by money)

lack of compromise in gov't (too often stubbornness has become a virtue/platform)

power of business (mega corps. and their stranglehold over gov't)

money in government - lobbying, the cushy jobs after service, etc. 

the disproportionate money paid to CEOs

that care for the environment as an us vs them situation

the (still growing?) influence of religion in gov't

 

 

that went a lot longer than I intended, so I'll stop there

 

[Weganator]

14 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

1.  I think you are misrepresenting the views of many people on a large number of issues.  I don't know anybody that really wants to get rid of all private entities.

I vaguely remember talk about some people wanting to push towards single payer healthcare. I am relieved that one of my uncles that is a doctor warned me to go towards programming as opposed to going into medicine. A major system switch there could screw some people over seriously.

 

Quote

Any system is going to have failure and inefficiency.  People that rail against government inefficiency frequently do not take into account similar inefficiency in private industry. 

I will admit that I probably have experienced too drastic of a change at once, but I went from on-site governent contracting work to a tech startup thru its IPO as it now integrates into a major corporation (and continues to merge w/ other acquisitions).. its not even close. The employees were complacent and lazy. Some govt clients would do the whole 'waste a bunch of money at the end of the year to keep funding' thing too.. blew my mind to actully see it.

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, Fergasun said:

Just like our TVs and computers, education and health care should cost less over time --- housing values should be stable.

 

This posts has several issues.  That I'm not going to address completely.  There is a lot of complexity here that I don't have time to deal with completely.

 

Education and healthcare change more than tvs.

 

TVs realistically are still just tvs while computers are computers.  When you only had tvs, the education and health care system could only use tvs.

 

Now that you have computers and tvs, the health care system and education system use both tvs and computers.  Compared to 1985, the education system is saving money on tvs, but they've had to add in the cost of buying computers.

 

A better comparison to the health care system and education system would be a house hold electronic budget.  The price of tvs have come down, but then people started buying computers.  The price of computers came down people started buying more other things.

 

In my house, we have a tv, a lap top, a chrome book, an ipad, and and a an android tablet (and that doesn't even count cell phones, which more fills the traditional role of tv than the old fashion phone).  I strongly suspect that we've spent as much if not more on household electronics than a family in 1980 did.  In health care and the education system, you are getting the true value of their total electronics budget.

 

(I'll also point out that in terms of college, a lot of the increase in costs is associated with reduced funding from states, while enrollments have gone up.  At some places that have looked at their costs, real spending per a student is actually down, while enrollments are up and state funding is down.  The difference then has to come from tuition, which people see as an increase in costs.)

24 minutes ago, Weganator said:

I vaguely remember talk about some people wanting to push towards single payer healthcare. I am relieved that one of my uncles that is a doctor warned me to go towards programming as opposed to going into medicine. A major system switch there could screw some people over seriously.

 

Many countries that run a basic single system still also have additional private health care insurance and facilities.  Canada is just one example.  Most people in Canada are happy with their healthcare and most people on Medicare (a single payer system that also exist in the context of there also being a private health care system) are happy with it.

 

I'm not particularly for a single payer system, but what we are doing know is clearly not working.

[Weganator]

@skinny21 Good points. I can see where you are coming from there.

 

For me, it comes down to this. Whether you are a serf back in the middle ages to a feudal lord, suffering in some work camp somewhere today/in the past, or just an employee at a corporation in a capitalist country you are a serf to some greater entity beyond your control. Its just a matter of semantics in your living conditions.

 

As opposed to relying upon the government to compel others to provide things to me thru force (unpaid taxes = prison), depending upon the fact that the government will remain benevolent towards me and will continue to be able to provide for me in perpetuity. I would rather accumulate enough wealth to ensure cooperation with the people around me through mutually beneficial transactions.

 

Individuals are only able to invest money that doesn't go towards expenses today, surplus money. Increases in taxes disproportionately affect the ability of an individual to increase their personal wealth because expenses are mostly fixed / growing. By increasing taxes, the time it takes for you to save enough money to become a truly free individual is increased.

[skinny21]

@WeganatorWhat would be your reasoning behind the insanely disproportionate distribution of wealth in this country?  I'm reasonably certain it has little to do with the amount of taxes we serfs pay.  

 

Sidenote - I really wish fiscal responsibility was a focus in our education system.  

 

 

Edit: crud, tried to paste a chart showing tax rate changes over the years...

[Weganator]

4 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Sidenote - I really wish fiscal responsibility was a focus in our education system.

A million times this. I'm in Anacostia now and they are building a community center really close to my place. I have been debating doing something like this, just to do the basics:

 

Budgeting

What Income, Expenses, Assets, and Liabilities are

What inflation is and why its a bad idea to leave lots of money in cash / savings (more of a future problem for them hopefully)

 

edit: didn't want to dodge your first point, just got excited about the 2nd one. I think a change in focus away from a strictly income based tax system could help. There is a big difference between some 1%'er making $250k plus a year off of dividends and investments (the wealth is generating more wealth) and me working 2 jobs to try and help pay off my rental properties faster because I don't need a fortune, just looking to get enough to be comfortable and independent.

[twa]

I am a libertarian leaning conservative, and support controlled immigration and the integration of them into our society(which allowing illegals prevents)

I see fetuses as people and think taking life should be a last resort(and discouraged by govt)  and have no problem with birth control(though believe giving my minor child it w/o my knowledge is subversive to parental rights)

Family is the basic structure of both my life and society imo and govt policy should strengthen it rather than divide(as we see with some welfare  restrictions)

Helping those in need is both a personal and govt obligation, yet feel enabling self support thru right to work and lowering barriers such as over regulation/licensing is preferable to aid programs w/o incentive to be self sufficient.

Education needs to focus on a strong foundation in the early years and efforts directed to empower students despite their circumstances.

I believe we can all rise beyond where we are.

The SSM marriage mess would have been best addressed by allowing legal unions for all if we truly believe in freedom of association.

 

I believe limited govt provides more opportunity though security,safety and freedoms require govt oversight to achieve.

Taxation is best limited to the minimum and govt waste held to a minimum.

 

Oh and politicians suck.  they are like dentists...a necessary evil.

[Bang]

Most people do not listen to learn, they listen to comment.

This is as true a fact as i've ever heard, and is a large part of my frustration with the whole system.

Unfortunately, i think this is the nature of man, who individually can be terrific, but as a group we tend to be violent, immature, and more prone to gut reaction than considered thought. Easily manipulated, ignorant and proud to be so.

 

i'm a cynic, as if it isn't obvious, and I have yet to see anything to sway me away from it. Right, left,, these concepts don't mean much to me in terms of who i am, because if you talkedto me ten years agfo, lefties thought i was a rightie, and now righties swear i'm a lefty.
I'm what i've always been, but the lines keep moving, and labels keep becoming more and more severe. (Tell someone you're a right winger now, and to anyone not there you're a lunatic. Tell someone you're a left winger now, and to the right, you're everything wrong with the world.).

 

There are occasional politicians who i think have the best interests of the people they represent at heart, but they are usually washed out or snowed under pretty quickly. If they do rise, they are fought mercilessly.

 

In my adult life, i have watched as we have shut down avenues of communication, steadily refuse to accept any responsibility at all for anything that happens to us, and become increasingly more and more angry towards each other, because no matter what, whatever my problem is, it's your fault. "Personal responsibility" and "civic duty" are, in my mind, one in the same. If i maintain personal responsibility for myself and my actions, then I am also following through on my civic duty, which in my mind is to live my life my way without putting undue burden on others trying to live life their way. 

Used to be such a thing as the "social contract" in which we all live under the same rules and we all accept responsibility to our part in society.

That's gone. "Society" now means YOU, and **** YOU.
"Us"..  "We"..  these are concepts that are losing ground. the notion we are all in this together is lost, because if something is wrong, it's YOUR FAULT, and not mine or anyone who believes like me. The social construct breaking is YOUR FAULT< even though that attitude is exactly what breaks it.

I am a cynic. Show me why i shouldn't be, and i'll gladly listen. Unfortunately, more often than not, the bull**** i smell is there in heaping piles.

I'm willing to listen, up until the bull****. and unfortunately, it seems to be nothing but bull****. "Leadership" does not exist, not because we have any shortage of great leaders,. they are just far outnumbered by the thick-skulled morons who will never follow because it makes them feel like their dick is smaller, and there's no way anyone but their pre-approved propagandists can tell them anything, and all the propagandists do is fan the flames of their ignorance.

 

I'm tired, fed up, and practically convinced we are beyond hope. I firmly believe we are headed for violence.

And so far, nothing is showing me otherwise. I am willing to listen. Just don't bull**** me.

 

~Bang

[LD0506]

Another classic Bang rant, they alone are worth the price of admission.

 

 

If you're not cynical you just aren't paying attention

[Burgold]

Having been raised by a Holocaust survivor, I think my first thoughts tend towards social justice. I really do believe that the ultimate purpose of government is to defend the little guy from the bully. Sometimes, that means defending me from the mugger or crook, the polluter or the con man, or the terrorist or the foreign army. There are other versions of bullies, but fundamentally, I think the reason we unite into a pack, a community, a nation is to defend ourselves from predators. 

 

I like to view myself as a scatter plot. I definitely lean liberal, much more so these days given the current incarnation of conservatism, but the reason is largely based on the above. He's going to stand up for the poor, for the minority, for the voiceless? Who's going to act with forethought for the economy, for the environment, for health care? That's how I make my determination and why I take my stand.

 

Throughout my lifetime, it's also the reason I have grown more and more distant from the GOP.

[TheGreatBuzz]

the economy: I think the economy, up to and including the global economy, is really just one big bubble.  The fact that it really isn’t based on anything other than faith bothers me.  The fact that I don’t really know anything about economics makes me understand that I really shouldn’t even have an opinion on this though.  And I figure if it ever bursts, everyone else will be equally as screwed so I don’t sweat it too much.  I do have an issue with such a large portion of our economy, and the people getting wealthy off it, is just gambling.  I think there is way too much focus on stocks and futures and such, and way too much money being thrown around dealing with those things, and not enough money on actual “stuff” be it tangibles or services.  But again, I also admit I am stupid on things economic.

Immigration: I’m a little torn here.  I do want people to be able to immigrate here.  But I also feel like it shouldn’t be TOO easy.  They should have to work to want it.  That said, I think the system now is overly cumbersome.  Too much focus on paperwork and not enough on requiring people to speak English.   I think English should be the national language and everyone coming here should have to learn it.  I like the idea of there being some sort of test that requires them to show they know basics about our country and how it operates.  Though I would also like that test to be required before you can vote.  The number of idiots is what has gotten us where we are.  I also think “what can you do for us” should be heavily weighed.  Scientists and professors should move to the front of the line.  Laborers should be towards the bottom.  Now before you point out that we need the laborers to perform menial functions because Americans don’t want to do them, keep reading.

entitlement programs (food stamps, medicaid, etc):  I have no problem helping someone up when they are down.  But those people should also be helping themselves up.  Now my opinion is based on personal experience but I have yet to see someone who honestly COULDN’T get SOME job if they wanted.  Now it may not be in their preferred field or making as much as they wanted, but they can find something.  I also see too much (my brother is a perfect example of this) of people abusing the system.  My brother has an $80k SUV but gets WIC.  Know I don’t know all the in’s and out’s of how they do it but to me, that is abuse.  Things like that need to be cracked down on which will save money to help those that actually need it.  Another example that always sticks out to me is from back in 2010-ish.  A was back in Maryland on leave and ran into a guy I used to work with at an auto shop before I joined the military.  I would guess he was about 15 years older than me.  I asked him if he was still working at that same place and he said he had been laid off a while ago (I think it was like a year earlier).  I asked him where he was working now and he said he was still getting unemployment.  I asked how come he couldn’t find a job and told him I could make some calls for him.  He said “Why would I want a job?  I get paid almost as much as I was before and I’ll I do is sit on my couch smoking pot.  I don’t have to do a lick of work.  The trick is finding a job ad that has already been filled and apply for that so it looks like you are trying.”  I was floored!  Issues in the system like that need to be fixed and honestly, they make me less likely to want to help others.  I know that probably isn’t right but it’s how I feel.  I think after drawing a certain amount of benefits without finding employment, you should be “given” a job.  These would probably be many of the laborer jobs from above.  You may have been a mechanic and now you are cleaning toilets for half of what you made, but if you can’t find a job we will arrange one for you.  If you don’t want it, you lose your free ride.  There are obviously details to work out but I don’t want to make the whole thread about the details of this.  It’s more just a way to describe how I feel.

foreign policy: I like to be tough.  I think we should get much more in return for our foreign aid and when we don’t, it should get shut off.  No free money, we are buying your cooperation.  If we don’t get it, you don’t get paid.  I also don’t think we should **** foot around.  If we decide we are going to go in somewhere, it should be fire and brimstone.  I do like that Trump is at least talking tough towards wanting the UN and NATO to do more.  I think he is right on that (not saying I’m pro-trump, just like the general thought.  Please don’t make this a trump debate.  Just tell me why I’m wrong on my position on the issue).  I also think that one of the biggest mistakes is allowing the media to cover warzones.  It ties our hands too much.  Ugly things will happen and when they get blasted on TV, they lose context.  Then we end up not being able to go in to win, we go in to try not to look bad.  Innocents will die.  It’s a fact of war.  But if we allow that concern to affect our decisions TOO MUCH, it hurts us and negates our reason for being there in the first place.

Guns:  I’m probably one of, if not the most, pro-gun person here.  I think all of my positions have been spelled out enough in the gun control thread that I won’t go into them here.  I am just listing guns to highlight that it is important to me.

same sex marriage:  I don’t care who does what.  And I think more people need that mind set about a lot more things.  To me, the best way to get out of the argument would have been for the government to take the word “marriage” out of their vocabulary.  Make some sort of “Most important person to me” status that people can designate someone else as that would essentially have all the same legal ramifications of being married.  Other than that, leave the word marriage in church.  Problem solved.

Abortion:  As a personal matter, I’m pro-life.  I don’t like abortion and can’t see if I were in a relationship, advocating for an abortion in cases where the life of the mother wasn’t at risk.  That said, I realize that is MY moral stance.  I also don’t think it is right for me to force that belief on others.  If someone feels differently, then they should be able to go get an abortion.  That is why politically, I’m pro-choice.

 health care:  I have no clue how to fix that cluster ****.  The only thing I can say is that I think the issue has become it being for-profit.  Costs are beyond out of control.  I think if the government is going to step in and cover large portions of the costs, they need to do more to control those costs.  I also think we spend a little too much money and effort trying to prevent the inevitable.  I do believe there are times when it is more reasonable to let a person die.  (I’m sure that will get dragged up if I run for office someday.)

kids:  I hate kids.  I don’t have them.  I don’t want them.  I get stressed even being around them.  I cannot be in the same room with a crying kid for more than a few minutes with starting to feel like I’m having a panic attack.  So that may color my opinion here.  But I HATE the tax breaks that people get for having kids.  If you can’t afford a kid without the tax break, don’t have a kid.  It’s not like we are on the brink of some crisis of dwindling population or anything. 

Misc: 

-I think personal responsibility has gone out the window in today’s world.

- I think people feel entitled to too much. 

-I think too many people have become whiny ****es. 

-I think people want to act like they are inclusive and understanding but then only if your way/opinion match theirs.  If it doesn’t, you are pretty much the devil. 

-I’m for smaller government and more states-rights (in the non-racist way).  I think if you don’t like the way your state is you should vote more, write your representatives/newspaper, get more involved, or move.  I think the Feds do too much telling the states how to handle their business.

-I think there is a serious issue with the cost to produce something here vs. somewhere else.  I think we should be requiring countries that import to us to meet certain minimum standards or get slapped with a huge tax.  I am aware that would increase costs here but it's also important to realize that not everyone is entitled to an IPhone and Jordan's.  I also see, having traveled the world more than pretty much anyone I have known, how much cheaper that same phone or shoes or whatever are in many other places.  That says to me that we are being manipulated.  I think a lot of other people think that also and I think it's one of the big things they expect trump to fix.

That’s what I have right now.  I hastily wrote this in about 10 minutes on my lunch.  Some of it is probably contradictory.  Some of it may not make sense.  Some of it I could probably have worded better.  So before you completely flame me on a topic, give me an opportunity to clarify if you aren’t sure.

I really hope this thread goes the way I, and I think Brandy, hope it will go.  Could be interesting.