Going Commando Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 1 hour ago, skinny21 said: Seems like stability (and $ from arms sales) has too often outweighed the desire to advance more moderate (or progressive) parties. Strong man governments are inherently unstable. Promoting them doesn't actually promote political stability, it does the opposite. You can't tie the the strength of a polity's political institutions to one man and have a stability that lasts for more than a generation because the institutions will die when he loses power and conflict is almost inevitable as a result. You have to anchor the institutions in something broader and more enduring. That's why monarchy has been such an unstable form of government in human history, even when it has been grounded in a higher principle like divine hereditary right, despite the advantages of centralization it offers societies. We've been promoting instability in North African and Southwest Asia since the onset of the Cold War, and the European great powers and Russia have been doing so for far longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 I mean, we are going far far back in history right now, but throughout its history, the Ottoman Empire was far more tolerant of minority religions than any European country. Jews and Christians were generally protected as long as they did not proselytize. And western history is not a straight light from the Magna Charta to the Enlightenment. After the English Civil War, the philosopher class in Europe saw the future of government as a strong centralized ruler who can promise order. Our own internal political history goes back and forth on this same constant. The issue at hand in the Muslim world is not it's necessarily incompatible with "liberal democracy." A lot of things may be incompatible with "liberal democracy," especially if you ask our current president. The problem is really how this current switch towards theocratic authoritarianism in overall philosophy shows no real sign of abating. I used to think that the exploding birthrate in the Muslim World would necessarily drive a change towards liberalism - everyone wants blue jeans and the rap music, right? Well, that may not be the case. If anything, the younger generation seems more attracted to theocratic extremes than their parents. (I'm speaking in vast generalities here). I also think there are vast cultural differences between Arabs, Turks, Persians, and Central Asians that we never seem to take into account when we discuss this stuff. Asking SHF to speak for Egyptians is like an Irish immigrant being asked to explain Italians in 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Im POSITIVE we saw this same empathy and understanding from liberals during the Catholic Church pedophilia crisis. "Its strictly an American issue. Its in no way representative of the larger church. Its only the acts of a few men who should be punished but the larger church and congregation are innocent" My ****ing ass. The hypocrisy is vomit inducing. Now, where is Predicto to post a thread with a picture of Jesus on a dogs but? Because that thread exists on ES. Someone from the left, do it with the Prophet. And post your full name when you do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Losing this argument so I better attack Liberals with a counterfactual conditional non sequitur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 57 minutes ago, zoony said: Im POSITIVE we saw this same empathy and understanding from liberals during the Catholic Church pedophilia crisis. "Its strictly an American issue. Its in no way representative of the larger church. Its only the acts of a few men who should be punished but the larger church and congregation are innocent" My ****ing ass. The hypocrisy is vomit inducing. Now, where is Predicto to post a thread with a picture of Jesus on a dogs but? Because that thread exists on ES. Someone from the left, do it with the Prophet. And post your full name when you do it. This is your next move? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 The point I try to make is that what theocratic dictatorships do really has nothing to do with what I do as a tax paying, voting American citizen. If I could get Wahabbism to disappear tomorrow, I would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 I thought this was increcibly pretinent: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/05/sports/football/new-england-patriots-super-bowl-cheating.html?_r=0&referer=http://m.facebook.com Quote “It’s not about the true facts, or about how honest you believe a group is, or what the group’s past behavior is,” he said. “It doesn’t matter what sport it is, or what team it is, or even if it’s sports at all. Just being a part of a group, any group, is enough to excuse moral transgressions because in some way, you’re benefiting from it. Your moral compass shifts.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 10 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Anyway, that's pedantry. It is absolutely true that there is nothing inherently incompatible between Islam and liberalism and progressive thought. For half the history of the religion, the Islamic world was the peaceful, hegemonic, tolerant, and enlightened world. And you're right in linking the rise in fundamentalist Islamic regimes in Southwest Asia to the post-colonial policies of American and European powers. They've had a near constant destabilizing role in the region since the decline of the Ottomans. Political instability and colonial exploitation breeds poverty and stifles development which breeds religious fundamentalism and conflict. Especially in a heavily interconnected world where even people in very poor nations can have a global reach. Alot to ponder there. When would you say this peaceful, tolerant half of Islamic history was occurring? I'm never sure what to think when I see thoughts like "everyone was fine til America - or the Europeans - came along". Not to say America and Europe aren't sinless, of course. Just that the degree to which they are guilty depends on which version of History you are reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I feel like I am the only person who actually enjoyed going to Catholic school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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