The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[XtremeFan55]

Any economics class will teach you the basics of supply and demand.  In the NFL you have only 32 teams with some talking heads saying there are not even 16 quarterbacks available in the world that can play in the NFL at a high level.  The hardest and most important position to find is quarterback.  The demand for one is extremely high as evidenced by some teams trading away their future like we did for RG3 trying to find one of those rare players.   With the demand high and very limited supply......it doesn't matter what we or any GM or team executive thinks...the market will set Kirks price and it will be way over what everyone thinks he is worth because Kirk has shown for 2 years that he knows how to play quarterback in the NFL at a high level therefore he is a rare talent.  Let Kirk hit free agency and I guarantee there will be a huge bidding war that would make him temporarily the highest paid player in the NFL which will in turn benefit the other few rare quarterbacks out there.   A few years from now $25 million a year will be the norm.  

[Wildbunny]

Owners aren't to blame in any way. Not gonna shed a tears on any of them.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

44 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Watch this thing last all the way into summer tomorrow, and multiple heads explode as a result

 

There...much more accurate.

[DM72]

This is what PISSES me the F off. I'm looking at ESPN and they got UnWise Mike BASHING the Redskins. Particularly the front office. No other GM is talking, but when it's the Redskins, there's turmoil.

 

 

[Warhead36]

16 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

Who was the last non-elite QB to win without an elite defense? Probably Mark Rypien. Point is, you do need a Brees/Rogers type.

The Giants D was actually in the 20s in 2011 when they won it all. In 2007 they were 17th. But they had a great pass rush and Eli(who isn't elite but is good to very good, similar to Cousins)got hot in the playoffs.

 

The Ravens in 2012 ranked 12th on D, but Flacco just played at another level in the playoffs. I don't think anyone considers him "elite" though.

 

I think they key is to have a QB who is, at the very least, in that good to very good level, and has the potential to be elite, if at least for a 3-4 game stretch. Cousins has shown he can do this. He had a red hot streak this past year as well as in 2015. Then its up to the rest of your team to step up. No one guy wins rings on his own.

[Warhead36]

18 minutes ago, XtremeFan55 said:

Any economics class will teach you the basics of supply and demand.  In the NFL you have only 32 teams with some talking heads saying there are not even 16 quarterbacks available in the world that can play in the NFL at a high level.  The hardest and most important position to find is quarterback.  The demand for one is extremely high as evidenced by some teams trading away their future like we did for RG3 trying to find one of those rare players.   With the demand high and very limited supply......it doesn't matter what we or any GM or team executive thinks...the market will set Kirks price and it will be way over what everyone thinks he is worth because Kirk has shown for 2 years that he knows how to play quarterback in the NFL at a high level therefore he is a rare talent.  Let Kirk hit free agency and I guarantee there will be a huge bidding war that would make him temporarily the highest paid player in the NFL which will in turn benefit the other few rare quarterbacks out there.   A few years from now $25 million a year will be the norm.  

Well said.

 

I don't care about the "highest paid player" title. It means nothing. Most contracts don't even pay out half the money they say they will, its all about the bonuses and structure and all that jazz.

 

Cousins would be the highest paid...for about a year. Then Carr will sign his deal, and then after that Winston/Mariotta, and the list goes on and on.

 

The cap is only going to go up and up as time goes on. The NFL makes money up the arse.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

23 minutes ago, zoony said:

 

That Tampa Team struggled for years with first round playoff exits.

 

Are you sure you wanna stick to that? lol...

 

Between 1997 (the four seasons before Johnson joined the team) and 2003 (the last time Johnson was their full time starter), the Bucs only lost in the 1st round of the playoffs twice. Once was without Johnson. The second time was with Johnson as QB...and he **** all over the field: zero TDs, 4 INTs, 36.8 QB rating.

 

And his production in the playoffs the year they made the Super Bowl was mediocre at best. 5 TDs, 3 INTs, a crappy 54% completion rate, and a mediocre 79.9 QB rating.

 

I'm thinking @Taylor703 was pretty accurate in his assessment in the post you quoted.

[onedrop]

45 minutes ago, KokoMike said:

The Mercury News poll of who should be the 49ers QB next year has Cousins in the lead.

and?

[XtremeFan55]

When you look at what makes an elite quarterback you can't use Super Bowl wins because Marino never won and he was probably one of the best ever.  Jim Kelly didn't win.  Brett Favre won one in his long career.  Peyton Manning won one with the his second one won by his defense with him being the weakest link on the team at that stage.  Total yards and percentage completions are important.  Touchdowns can be unless you play West Coast and have a running game then the quarterback moves the ball into range and the RB punches it in for the touchdown.  Go look at Joe Montana's career.  Durability has got to be way up there because you can't be that valuable to a team if you are hurt and missing huge chunks of the season.  Romo is hurt all the time.  Cousins hasn't missed a game.  RG3 was a trainwreck waiting to happen and no coach could confidently go into a season depending on him to play all 16 games.  There is more.....but when you look at how efficient the offense looked with Cousins leading even with Reed and DeSean out and not much of a run game....and how durable he is which to me is a big deal because of all positions on the field you need continuity at the quarterback position...he is one of less than eight current quarterbacks that I would pick to builda team around.  I would even prefer him over Luck.  Just rambling FWIW

[Califan007 The Constipated]

5 minutes ago, XtremeFan55 said:

When you look at what makes an elite quarterback you can't use Super Bowl wins because Marino never won and he was probably one of the best ever.  Jim Kelly didn't win....

 

For most people I think it's about getting to the Super Bowl, not really winning it. There are few truly great QBs who never made it to the Super Bowl at least once.

 

That being said, I do agree that using the Super Bowl as the main (or only) barometer for whether or not a QB is worthy of being called a franchise QB is rather weak.

[Skinsinparadise]

52 minutes ago, crabbypatty said:

 

That's why I said LET'S SAY the skins offered that.

Realistically at a MINIMUM if they want to keep him it's gonna have to be at least 100 mil + and 60+ guaranteed, there is no other way around it. Whether they've offered that, who knows. But I do know that the longer this drags out, the worse opinion of KC will get. It's already at rock bottom for the team and front office, so they can't go any lower... unless it comes out that they offered some ridiculous offer like 14 mil a year and won't budge from that.

 

Sure, though I understood you were giving a hypothetical. But I took your premise of "at what point enough is enough" and "Kirk is going to look like a money hungry shark" coupled with your hypothetical of the Redskins offering him a big contract -- that it came off to me like you are thinking that perhaps Kirk is turning down a nice offer and perhaps the dude just doesn't know when to stop as for asking for more.   

 

My point in response is in the sea of rumors and things thrown out there one thing has been consistent no one's hearing of the Redskins offering Kirk a big deal let alone Kirk turning it down.

 

To make my point more succinctly, at present time based on what people are saying I put all of the inaction on the FO.  If the FO is stuck on paying him 20-22 million a year and Kirk is stuck on somewhere between 23.9-25 million which is the vibe that Mike Jones gave a few days back.  Kirk is right IMO because that's the market. The FO is wrong.   And if Kirk bolts because of this IMO its all on the FO not him.  Joe Banner, ex FO guy explains market reality well IMO: 

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/30274/joe-banner-if-free-kirk-cousins-would-become-nfls-highest-paid-qb

 

Here’s why: If the Redskins somehow let Cousins hit the open market, Banner said it would result in a big payday.

“He’d get a huge deal and would become the highest-paid QB by a moderate amount,” he said.

Banner said the options here are clear. The Redskins can let Cousins walk (which he said he doesn’t believe they’re considering), tag him or do a long-term deal.

And that would lead to a deal that will cost quite a bit.

“The only way you get it done is if you pay him,” Banner said. “You probably have to make him the highest paid, at least to this point. Losing him is a terrible option.

 

1 hour ago, crabbypatty said:

We're not even in March yet and I'm already sick of this ****ing contract situation. At what point is enough, enough?

but the longer this drags on the more he's gonna look like a money hungry shark who only cares about that instead of winning games. 

 

 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

 

I'm not really understanding what your disagreement is here.  Yes, they know what they have in Carr.  Yes, they will try their best to get an extension now.  That is basically what I said from the outset.  That still doesn't mean it makes sense for us to pay Kirk more than Carr, who has proven to be the better QB, with more potential, and three years younger.  The fact that they had almost 3 full seasons of watching Carr be a franchise QB and grow each season means they should be paying more for Carr than we pay for Kirk, not less.

 

I think McCloughan will be happy to wait to see what happens with the Carr (and Stafford) situation if he has a strong belief he will be receiving less than what Kirk and his agent are asking for, which I'm postulating could be the case.

 

Kirk will get paid, whether you think he is worth less than Carr or not, it's not the issue and it has nothing to do with his negotiations with the Redskins or potentially other teams.  Carr most likely (pure speculation on my part) will land an extension that pays him 22-24 million/yr.  Kirk most likely will get paid (eventually - and again, speculation) 23-25 million/yr, whether it's with the Redskins or another team.  

 

Doesn't matter what Carr gets, Kirk's camp is going to use the franchise tag price as the base of their negotiations, which is 23.9 million/yr.  That's where it starts and the team will either try to work out a LTD based on that (and other factors as well) and pay Kirk 24 million/yr or let him play under the tag again where he will make 24 million/yr for one year.  Or they will trade him, etc.  Either way, Kirk will be getting more money than most think he is worth, that is the way the market works.  

 

And Bruce will be the one handling the negotiations/contracts, not GMSM anyhow.  And say Carr gets 20 million/yr and the Redskins throw that into Kirks face, they believe that another team will be willing to pay him closer to what he wants, so he will just play under the tag anyhow and make that 24 million for one year and hit a pay day in 2018.  The majority of power in these negotiations is in favor of Kirk's side.  

 

It's a win, win or win situation for him:

 

1.  win - if he gets the LTD he wants around 24 mil/yr

2.  win - if he signs and plays under the tag for another year and gets 24 million

3.  win - if he gets traded (this year) or walks in 2018 and another team is willing to pay him what he wants

[bobandweave]

27 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't care about the "highest paid player" title. It means nothing. Most contracts don't even pay out half the money they say they will, its all about the bonuses and structure and all that jazz. - I agree with you here

 

Cousins would be the highest paid...for about a year - Completely disagree with you here. The moment that Carr or Stafford get extensions which will come in the Summer they will be the highest paid in the league. No way Kirk makes it a year

 

The cap is only going to go up and up as time goes on. The NFL makes money up the arse. - Disagree with you here as well. Why does the cap go up? TV contracts. Ad revenue. What we saw last year was the viewership for the league go down. The Superbowl didn't generate the money in Ads that it has in the past. The NFL is watered down, not saying that plenty of people don't watch it but this is what drives the cap going up. We incorrectly think that the cap will always rise but one day that won't happen and part of me thinks that days coming sooner rather then later

 

[XtremeFan55]

The only solution to all this would have been for the Redskins taking the plunge and showing Kirk the love by offering a contract that would blow him away.  $130 million...5 years...$80 million guaranteed.  They have made worst mistakes in the past.  If Cousins turns into a giant bust (highly unlikely) or has a career-ending injury (again...highly unlikely) then it would really only cost $56 million if you subtract the FT for 2017 which he is at least guaranteed to get.  How much did Fat Albert walk away with for minimum effort?

[Momma There Goes That Man]

3 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

So, I don't think that's the question. 

 

To me, the only way you struggle with this decision is if you believe that the system trumps the QB. So, in short, you can plug and play with several guys to get similar production. If you are just bridging the gap from Cousins to some undefined next QB, then just pay Cousins. 

 

Again, I think it's possible that McCloughan (or someone) believes that they can get 80% of the production for 10% of the cost. If (HUGE "if") that's actually true, then playing McCoy and letting Cousins walk is clearly the correct choice. It's also very consistent with McCloughan's mentality in Seattle and San Francisco. 

 

It's a great point and also reminds me of the report during the season that our FO believes they can fairly easily replace Cousins with a draft pick and not lose much while saving a lot of money. 

 

Which of course people here just stuck their heads in the sand and said it was made up for clicks and all that other nonsense that comes out any time a report releases about the team they don't like 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

1 minute ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

It's a great point and also reminds me of the report during the season that our FO believes they can fairly easily replace Cousins with a draft pick and not lose much while saving a lot of money. 

 

Which of course people here just stuck their heads in the sand and said it was made up for clicks and all that other nonsense that comes out any time a report releases about the team they don't like 

 

I don't think they will find a replacement in this years draft, extremely weak for QBs, where as last year it was loaded.

[HOF44]

4 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

It's a great point and also reminds me of the report during the season that our FO believes they can fairly easily replace Cousins with a draft pick and not lose much while saving a lot of money. 

 

 

If our front office really believes that they are idiots.  Could it be a remote possibility?? Sure, but the odds are highly stacked against it. 

[HTTRDynasty]

10 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

Kirk will get paid, whether you think he is worth less than Carr or not, it's not the issue and it has nothing to do with his negotiations with the Redskins or potentially other teams.

 

...

 

Doesn't matter what Carr gets, Kirk's camp is going to use the franchise tag price as the base of their negotiations, which is 23.9 million/yr.  

 

 

Carr, Stafford, and Ryan's contracts will be extremely relevant to what deal Kirk will get if Kirk's deal happens after.  Those contracts will set the market for this off-season.  Kirk is not valued higher than any of these guys around the league.  If these guys get less than what Kirk is demanding, he will have a reality check and either A) lower his demands, or B ) play out the season (risking a long term injury and/or poor play) and hope he can reset the market next season.  Either way, if the Redskins have a good sense of what Carr, Stafford, Ryan will get this off-season, and it is lower than what Kirk is demanding, it makes a lot of sense to wait for those guys to set the market and make Kirk look like a greedy fool for demanding more.  And if we don't give in to his demands, the narrative switches from incompetent front office that won't pay Kirk market value to greedy player asking for more than he is worth.

 

And yes, Kirk's camp will use $23.9 million as their base, but that doesn't mean the Redskins have to accept that base if they see better QBs being paid less in the same off-season.  They can accept that as part of the guaranteed portion of his contract, but it doesn't have to automatically be $23.9 mil per year just because that is what he is guaranteed to make this year.

[Warhead36]

40 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

Cousins being the highest paid player lasting only until the summer actually strengthens the argument that its a nothing title.

 

I'm not so sure about the cap going down any time soon. All I hear every year is how much money the league is raking in. They still have monster TV deals and the Super Bowl alone brings in tons and tons of cash.

 

Within 10 years you'll probably see $50 Mil/year deals being handed out.

[KokoMike]

50 minutes ago, onedrop said:

and?

From that article:  Multiple reports suggest the 49ers could be on the verge of acquiring their next quarterback. Depending on which report you believe, San Francisco will either be trading for Washington’s Kirk Cousins or Chicago’s Jay Cutler.

 

NFL Network analyst Dan Jeremiah suggested the 49ers could pull off a trade for Cousins as early as next week at the NFL Combine.

[NoCalMike]

At this point I almost want to say I am fine paying Cousins whatever, as long as there is some kind of clause in the contract that allows the 'Skins to make a clean break after 2018 should Cousins regress, not improve, or for whatever reason doesn't do enough to justify the "long term" part of the long term contract.  So it is almost like a "long term, prove it" type of contract.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

11 minutes ago, KokoMike said:

From that article:  Multiple reports suggest the 49ers could be on the verge of acquiring their next quarterback. Depending on which report you believe, San Francisco will either be trading for Washington’s Kirk Cousins or Chicago’s Jay Cutler.

 

NFL Network analyst Dan Jeremiah suggested the 49ers could pull off a trade for Cousins as early as next week at the NFL Combine.

If they are truly "on the verge" then it can't be us. Cousins isn't "tradeable" until he's under contract. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

9 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

  So it is almost like a "long term, prove it" type of contract.

He'll never sign one of those because he doesn't have to. 

We just have to come to grips with either being stuck with him and his salary or replacing him with the chips traded for him.

[mistertim]

20 minutes ago, KokoMike said:

From that article:  Multiple reports suggest the 49ers could be on the verge of acquiring their next quarterback. Depending on which report you believe, San Francisco will either be trading for Washington’s Kirk Cousins or Chicago’s Jay Cutler.

 

NFL Network analyst Dan Jeremiah suggested the 49ers could pull off a trade for Cousins as early as next week at the NFL Combine.

 

Why would Kirk even want to go to SF? The only reason I can see is Kyle. They are in complete rebuilding mode and have pretty much zero receiving talent, a crappy OL, and one of the absolute worst defenses in the league....seriously, they were ranked 32nd in at least 3 categories IIRC. I think they're at least a couple of years away from being contenders again and that is IF they are able to draft well. Giving up high picks (including possibly #2 overall) and paying out the ass for Cousins is an insanely risky move for a rebuilding franchise as they aren't anywhere in the vicinity of "win now" mode, not to mention a huge risk for Cousins as the offensive talent around him will be pretty abysmal.

 

Only other things I could think of is:

 

He truly only cares about the money (which is what it is, sometimes that's just how things are).

He truly believes that he is the reason for the offensive success and doesn't need top talent to throw to.

[a0tmike21]

I really want Kirk to stay with us.  But after all this talk about him not wanting to be here, and the amount of money (cap space) it will take to keep him.  What does anybody think of tagging him, and trading him to SF or whoever wants him.  Letting Colt McCoy start (I personally think he has played very well every time he has been on the field for us).  Let Nate Sudfield develop, b/c that's the reason you drafted him right...  Finally with the money and cap room we will save and the draft picks we could get for Cousins, we could potentially draft players like Dalvin Cook (who could become a workhorse RB and a star), re-sign DeSean Jackson AND Pierre Garcon and still draft and sign players in free agency to make our defense good.  We could probably go after guys like Dontari Poe, Calais Campbell, Duron Harmon (one of my favorites), even look at a few big name free agents like Terrell Pryor or whoever the organization likes.  Basically I think we could turn our team into a very very good team with tons of weapons on offense and a very good defense.  We would obviously be missing that franchise quarterback but I will say it again, I think McCoy has played well the few times he has started for us.  Remember the Dallas game (NO means NO!) and wasn't there a game he replaced Cousins a year or two ago and played well when Cousins was struggling.  Nate Sudfield looked good in preseason last year, maybe he is gonna be a good one too.