The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[mistertim]

56 minutes ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

 

First, that Cousins wants out, at all costs, I don't buy. Nonetheless, Cousins can be tagged again in 2018, if need be. Not ideal, but still an option. 

 

What does the word unless mean? 

 

 

I meant "unless" as in the only way we'd likely keep him past 2017 if he decided to play on a 2017 franchise tag is if we are willing to pay him over $34 million in 2018. And I do not see that happening at all.

 

1 minute ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

 

So, just to point out, the Redskins don't have to necessarily franchise tag Cousins in 2018. There are other designations. 

 

What would the other options be? Honestly curious. If we did a non-exclusive tag and tried to trade him he'd probably just sign it and play again in 2018 for $34 million.

[PortisBetts]

How does everyone feel about McCoy?

[RemoveSnyder]

Just now, CapsSkins said:

You continue to misunderstand. It is not about "vengeance". It is about maximizing dollars.

 

I understand exactly why Cousins is taking the best pay he can get. Not confused one bit at all. 

I'm also well aware of what Cousins did last year by signing the tag less than 24 hours after being tagged. Not confused one bit at all. 

I understand the guaranteed money, the one year Max and the AAV. Not confused one bit at all.

 

I simply pointed out how you were wrong, that the last final date to get something for Cousins is April 27/28th, 2017. It's not.

The Redskins have further options beyond the April 28, 2017 date, more chances to get something for Cousins, if trade is ultimate endgame, 

 

I disagree with you that the Redskins have to make an ultimatum on April 27th. I'd rather continue to hammer away up until July 15. I'd also rather have Cousins play for the Skins in 2017, on the tag if need be, rather than trade him prior to the draft -- particularly with this classes' QBs. If we were getting someone's guaranteed top 3/5 pick for 2018's class, then I could see how replacing Cousins could be do-able. 

 

Whoever it is that you're earmarking for the Skins to have at QB next year after trading Cousins is likely someone I'd be abhorrent to. McCoy for example. 

 

You started this whole scenario with the notion that the Redskins get the sense, at the 11th hour before the draft, that regardless of what they do from there, (April 28 2017), to July 15 of 2017, through the 2017 season, including the 2018 offseason, and possibly all the way to 2019, they can never sign Cousins to a long term contract, that the Redskins need to get something for him.

 

 

I think it goes, non exclusive on March 1st, Cousins signs, and somewhere before July 15, the Redskins overpay Cousins, possibly matching, possibly slightly less, possibly slightly more AAV to the 1-year max franchise tender. 

 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

I just don't get it. Go cheap on a QB that excels In your system so you can find another QB that's cheap and hopefully will one day develop so that they can...excel in your system? ?

[RemoveSnyder]

Another point, the franchise tender amounts are not officially set. Last year they were set on Feb. 28. 

 

I know WaPo is running with the 24 million for QBs in 2017. However, PFT published their guesstimate at 21.01. John Clayton published his guesstimate at 21.58. 

 

Based on precedent from Cousins last year, if he's willing to sign a long term contract where the AAV matches the current year max franchise tender, I personally would like to know whether that amount is 21 or 24 million. 

 

Kind of makes a difference to me ... if it were my money. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

26 minutes ago, PortisBetts said:

How does everyone feel about McCoy?

 

Nice guy, good backup.  If they dump Kirk and he's the starter -- I think he might cost whomever was behind it their job.  Maybe that's the secret plan?  Scot?  Bruce? Jay? 

 

[mistertim]

16 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

I just don't get it. Go cheap on a QB that excels In your system so you can find another QB that's cheap and hopefully will one day develop so that they can...excel in your system? ?

 

Well, it really depends on how much SM and the coaches think it is Kirk and how much they think it is the system and/or supporting cast. As someone said earlier, if SM thinks he can get 80-90% of the production at 10% of the cost wouldn't that be smart to do? Then you could re-sign your other FAs and bolster the rest of the team via FA and the draft...especially if he were able to turn Kirk into high draft picks.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

37 minutes ago, PortisBetts said:

How does everyone feel about McCoy?

 

If they start McCoy week 1 and he is "the plan" or even "the bridge" or "stop gap" basically any reason other than Cousins or another QB was hit by a bus the night prior to week 1....there is a riot. 

 

I'll tie myself to the goalpost and swallow the key to prevent the game from happening. 

 

Mccoy sucks he's ok as a backup. If I have to see his dishrag armed, sack taking, Freddie Muniz looking ass take the field again, I may literally die. 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, rick7423 said:

Yes, I do want to sign him to whatever it takes to keep him here. For once,I want stability at the QB position. Get this done and then fix the damn defense!

 

Essentially, this was KC's 2nd year as a starter, and so many QB's have had sophomore slumps. Look at Cam. His second year was lackluster. 2015 was abysmal for Matt Ryan, but they stuck it out and worked to get better. Now look at both those guys. Class acts in their best years. KC can also be in that category, or at least close.

 

This team has had WAY less cap room and gotten quality players. Cap space is not the issue, it is upper management being cheap, for the first time in recorded history of Dan Snyder.

 

I don't think them being "cheap" has much to do with Dan Snyder nowadays. Most evidence and reports seem to point to him letting SM and Bruce make all the decisions nowadays.

[carex]

14 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I meant "unless" as in the only way we'd likely keep him past 2017 if he decided to play on a 2017 franchise tag is if we are willing to pay him over $34 million in 2018. And I do not see that happening at all.

 

 

What would the other options be? Honestly curious. If we did a non-exclusive tag and tried to trade him he'd probably just sign it and play again in 2018 for $34 million.

 

transition tag gives us right of first refusal, the teams that would both need him and able to pay would have to be pretty lousy

[Taylor 36]

3 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

There's also no reason to believe that Cousins will end up being one of the best to ever play the game, like Brees. In fact, I'd argue that it is pretty damn unlikely seeing as how rare a QB as good as Brees is.

 

Sure there is if you look at it with an unbiased eye, which you seem incapable of doing when it comes to Kirk.  You don't like the guy, I get that.  I'm just not sure why you hold so much vitriol towards him.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Nice guy, good backup.  If they dump Kirk and he's the starter -- I think he might cost whomever was behind it their job.  Maybe that's the secret plan?  Scot?  Bruce? Jay? 

 

 

People around Redskins park will talk 10 years now about Gruden or Scot: "Now THAT guy got canned!" 

12 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Well, it really depends on how much SM and the coaches think it is Kirk and how much they think it is the system and/or supporting cast. As someone said earlier, if SM thinks he can get 80-90% of the production at 10% of the cost wouldn't that be smart to do? Then you could re-sign your other FAs and bolster the rest of the team via FA and the draft...especially if he were able to turn Kirk into high draft picks.

 

I actually think he does believe that. And I think he is extremely foolish but it doesn't surprise me. This guy wants to build a ball control/strong defense team with a game manager at QB. So why would he want to pay for s franchise QB?

[Jumbo]

1 hour ago, markmills67 said:

Is it me or is this thread getting hotter and hotter. 

 

HTTR 

 

 

It's why I dropped that fresh article. I wasn't endorsing or condemning it, just thought it was a feisty take that would generate some new chatter. Sally usually does here. My way of saying hi. 

[mistertim]

10 minutes ago, Taylor 36 said:

Sure there is if you look at it with an unbiased eye, which you seem incapable of doing when it comes to Kirk.  You don't like the guy, I get that.  I'm just not sure why you hold so much vitriol towards him.

 

Can you please explain where anything I said there was "vitriol"? Or even in the past? I've been pretty consistent on my views of Kirk's play. It has nothing to do with me liking or not liking him. I don't know the guy. I think he is a good QB but not great or elite. And I don't see how it is some stretch to say that it isn't especially likely that he'll end up being one of the best to ever play the game because he has generally played pretty well the last couple of years. Guys like Brees are pretty much generational talents. It isn't a slight against Kirk to say he likely won't be as good as Drew Brees. Just like it wouldn't be a slight to say he is unlikely to be as good as Peyton, or Brady, or Rodgers.

[Warhead36]

Before Brees signed in New Orleans, nobody thought he'd be one of the best ever either. He had one really good year in San Diego and then got hurt. He was mediocre at best his first few years.

 

QBs often get even better post age 30. I actually feel Cousins's best years are ahead of him.

[Warhead36]

If we start McCoy its a sign we're punting the season. Of course nobody in the organization will admit that publicly, but get ready for 5-11.

 

It also likely means Gruden is gone at year's end even though it wouldn't be his fault.

[Mr. Sinister]

47 minutes ago, PortisBetts said:

How does everyone feel about McCoy?

 

He's a winner

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Before Brees signed in New Orleans, nobody thought he'd be one of the best ever either. He had one really good year in San Diego and then got hurt. He was mediocre at best his first few years.

 

QBs often get even better post age 30. I actually feel Cousins's best years are ahead of him.

 

That's fine. But not likely just based on the statistics of it. As I said, you're talking about a generational QB in Brees. I think you may be setting yourself up for disappointment if you are expecting Kirk to be that good.

[elkabong82]

10 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

@elkabong82the dead cap number you quote for Luck is incorrect. It's only 12.8mil with two years left on his deal.

 

Its very easy to front load, reduced signing bonus with higher roster bonus and base salary guaranteed in the first 3 year. Give him a 15mil SB with 2017 base of 20mil and he's getting 35 cash now, the cap hit in 2017 is 23 on a five year deal, plus dead cap after year3 is only 6 mil. Plenty of variations off that, easy done.

 

You sure? His 2nd to last year it is $12.8 mil and his last year it is $6.4 mil. I was under the impression if released with 2 years left that you would add together the dead cap years, so 12.8 plus 6.4 to make $19.2 mil. 

 

If that's not then case, then previous position changes in that releasing in the final 2 years is indeed not a big cap hit typically.

 

However, that's 3 years of less resources to go elsewhere on the team and also would greatly impact player retention, and we have some big contracts coming up in 3 years as well. Plus a failure at QB can lead to an entire regime change. The impact of a wrong choice is so much more significant than just the contract and it's flawed thinking from poster MTGTM to not consider that impact at all IMO.

[amm0409]

If anyone knows here I was a big time supporter of RG3; tried to find any stat to help him over the likes of Cousins...

 

Even at the end of Cousins first starting season (You like that year) I was a supporter of not signing Cousins long term.  I like the idea of seeing... "let him prove it" deal.

 

Now Fast Forward to the end of this season;  How do I feel?

 

He definitely racked up the yards, records etc…  He gave us chances, he looked Elite at times, other times I covered my eyes…  Biggest negative I saw this year is capitalizing (points)  The biggest concern I have with Cousins today is; Is he going to win games from behind on the biggest of stages?  I realize its only two starting seasons and if you compare his two year stats to other ELITE QB's his def. comparable.

 

I think thats one of  the issues and its a gamble.  If we sign Cousins long term and he doesn't succeed then we screwed the pooch.  If we trade him and he goes off we screwed the pooch.

 

its one of two scenarios;

 

A: sign him to LONG TERM deal (if you Tag him again, and he has the exact same year his price goes up and were doing this again)

 

B: Trade him for example: 2nd Overall Pick in draft (trade down, pick up more picks).  Draft your top QB in 2018.  QB won't be a concern in 2017 (build and draft the QB next year).  No other FA QB is significant enough to bring in, not even Taylor or Romo or Garap....

 

For me; Im willing to gamble on option A at this point, because B is riskier and if Romo is coming to town, I don't even want to express my feelings on that matter Id break too many rules;)  Other FA's are wanting to come play for KC

[RemoveSnyder]

 

14 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

It's why I dropped that fresh article. I wasn't endorsing or condemning it, just thought it was a feisty take that would generate some new chatter. Sally usually does here. My way of saying hi. 

 

I read it on the wapo page and read the comments section. This kept playing in my brain: 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

37 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

People around Redskins park will talk 10 years now about Gruden or Scot: "Now THAT guy got canned!" 

 

It almost does remind me of the George episode where he was trying to get canned by the Yankees -- what outrageous thing can you think up, next? 

 

A.  OK, we will dump Kirk Cousins, one of the more accurate and prolific passers in the NFL in the last 2 seasons.  And replace with a 30 something journeyman QB with a poor career QBR rating, history of injury, 60% career accuracy, almost 1:1 ratio of TDs and INTs.  And will sell it like heck its just about apples to apples.  

 

B.  Will say look Colt will have the weapons.  At the same time, the beat reporters are saying they are letting D. Jax and Garcon both leave.

 

C.  We will upgrade the D line but lets get that going by letting our best D lineman go in Baker.

 

I am just not buying it -- its too preposterous.  That's what I am holding faith in which is that all the craziness is just media speculation run wild.   We keep hearing the Redskins like to do their business during the combine.  I am assuming that its going down that way for real.  But heck maybe Scot, Jay or whomever is pulling a George?   If so, what's next are they trading Jordan Reed to Dallas for a 5th round pick?     John Beck returning to the fold to compete against Colt?  Scot or Jay streak down the field in the opener -- and are now being called body suitman? 

[Taylor 36]

8 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Can you please explain where anything I said there was "vitriol"? Or even in the past? I've been pretty consistent on my views of Kirk's play. It has nothing to do with me liking or not liking him. I don't know the guy. I think he is a good QB but not great or elite. And I don't see how it is some stretch to say that it isn't especially likely that he'll end up being one of the best to ever play the game because he has generally played pretty well the last couple of years. Guys like Brees are pretty much generational talents. It isn't a slight against Kirk to say he likely won't be as good as Drew Brees. Just like it wouldn't be a slight to say he is unlikely to be as good as Peyton, or Brady, or Rodgers.

Maybe I've been reading you wrong, and if so, I apologize.  It just seems like when you respond to anyone saying something positive about Kirk you attempt to counter by trying to be overly negative about him.  For me, I think Kirk has shown a lot of growth and skill and leadership comparable to many great QB's at the same point in their careers. I think he has shown that he is on an upward trajectory, and there is nothing to say he can't eventually get to be as good as some of the greats.  

[Gibbit]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It almost does remind me of the George episode where he was trying to canned by the Yankees -- what outrageous thing can you think up, next? 

 

A.  OK, we will dump Kirk Cousins, one of the more accurate and prolific passers in the NFL in the last 2 seasons.  And replace with a 30 something journeyman QB with a poor career QBR rating, history of injury, 60% career accuracy, almost 1:1 ratio of TDs and INTs.  And will sell it like heck its just about apples to apples.  

 

B.  Will say look Colt will have the weapons.  At the same time, the beat reporters are saying they are letting D. Jax and Garcon both leave.

 

C.  We will upgrade the D line but lets get that going by letting our best D lineman go in Baker.

 

I am just not buying it -- its too preposterous.  That's what I am holding faith in which that all the craziness to me is just media speculation run wild.   We keep hearing the Redskins like to do their business during the combine.  I am assuming that its going down that way for real.  But heck maybe Scot, Jay or whomever is pulling a George?   If so, what's next are they trading Jordan Reed to Dallas for a 5th round pick?     John Beck returning to the fold to compete against Colt?  

of course its all speculation

All we've heard from Skins is, Kirk is our QB and Kirk basically saying pay me fair, show me you want me here.

 

that's it basically

 

doesn't make good radio though

[jphilly]

FO should of never let this get to this point . Should not of let 2 Wrs hit FA while last years draft pick hurt all year . You start to see why cooley said what he did .