The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[Peregrine]

I must correct what I said earlier, as the transaction tracker was not accurate, apparently the Jaguars have also re-signed 4 players, 3 backups who saw 1 game last year, and Abry Jones, a DT with 32 tackles, 0 sacks, fumbles, etc etc.

[Cliffmark1]

I don't think the redskins want kirk. They may not even trade him. Just let him walk. 

[jphilly]

15 minutes ago, XtremeFan55 said:

For those thinking that the Redskins have until July 15th to trade Cousins are not thinking straight.  First...when FA season opens the cap money gets spent fast.  No one will keep an extra $25 million of so around just in case Cousins becomes available at the last minute AND would agree to a long term deal to play for them.  Cleveland doesn't haven't a chance.  Second...the longer it drags out espcially if it drags out past the Draft, the less the Redskins will recieve in return.  Before the Draft, the Redskins will know exactly what they are getting and they will receive a return during 2017 season.   Meaning...if the 49ers offer the number 2 pick in this draft then the Redskins get an impact player immediately.   Waiting until after the draft means getting a future pick and not only not knowing where that pick will land since the 49ers could surprise people and make the playoffs...but it also means that the Redskins get no help this year.  I am inclined to agree with David Jeremiah that the 49ers could make a deal during the Combine giving the Redskins their number 2 pick in exchange for Cousins and their number 17 pick.  Whoever trades for Cousins has to know beforehand that Cousins will sign with them or else they end up giving up a high draft pick plus pay $24 million for a one year rental.  That will NEVER happen.  Period.  Only place I can see Cousins going to is the 49ers.   The Rams doesn't seem logical after what they gave up to draft Goff.   49ers..either this year for the number 2 pick...or next year for nothing.  

 

 

Goff for sure gets another 1-2 years before they ditch him . Jeff Fisher is the type of HC that could make Brady , Montanta , Rodgers , look like  Pee Wee leaguers .  He could have the NFC Probowl team and lose to the Browns .   He is a bad coach and never knew how to get a QB going .

[mistertim]

8 minutes ago, Cliffmark1 said:

I don't think the redskins want kirk. They may not even trade him. Just let him walk. 

 

I believe that they do want him. But I'm not sure they're completely convinced by him and possibly still don't think he's worth what he is likely asking. The way he ended the season did not help him. I also don't think SF is going to give up picks and a huge contract for him. I think some of you guys are really overvaluing him. I know most here who are fans see him as a Tier 1 QB but that doesn't seem to be common outside of ES. From what I've read most around the NFL see him as a Tier 3 / borderline Tier 2 guy. But I suppose that can be taken with a grain of salt because the NFL guys who have said that stuff have been anonymous.

[Warhead36]

They want him but McC doesn't want to pay a QB that kind of money unless its a Brady/Rodgers type. I don't really agree but I can understand his reasoning. Since the Ravens paid Flacco(similar tier player as Cousins)they have struggled getting talent around him. But its largely because they haven't drafted as well since then. If you trust your ability to draft and develop talent then you pay your QB when you get him and go from there.

[jphilly]

19 hours ago, rick7423 said:

Yes, I do want to sign him to whatever it takes to keep him here. For once,I want stability at the QB position. Get this done and then fix the damn defense!

 

Essentially, this was KC's 2nd year as a starter, and so many QB's have had sophomore slumps. Look at Cam. His second year was lackluster. 2015 was abysmal for Matt Ryan, but they stuck it out and worked to get better. Now look at both those guys. Class acts in their best years. KC can also be in that category, or at least close.

 

This team has had WAY less cap room and gotten quality players. Cap space is not the issue, it is upper management being cheap, for the first time in recorded history of Dan Snyder.

 

 

Cam has really only had one outstanding year.... he has been maybe average if that . Ryan has been you typical above average QB that is always on the cusp but cant get you over the top . He also only has one amazing year despite always having great weapons . 

[goskins10]

11 minutes ago, XtremeFan55 said:

For those thinking that the Redskins have until July 15th to trade Cousins are not thinking straight.  First...when FA season opens the cap money gets spent fast.  No one will keep an extra $25 million of so around just in case Cousins becomes available at the last minute AND would agree to a long term deal to play for them.  Cleveland doesn't haven't a chance.  Second...the longer it drags out espcially if it drags out past the Draft, the less the Redskins will recieve in return.  Before the Draft, the Redskins will know exactly what they are getting and they will receive a return during 2017 season.   Meaning...if the 49ers offer the number 2 pick in this draft then the Redskins get an impact player immediately.   Waiting until after the draft means getting a future pick and not only not knowing where that pick will land since the 49ers could surprise people and make the playoffs...but it also means that the Redskins get no help this year.  I am inclined to agree with David Jeremiah that the 49ers could make a deal during the Combine giving the Redskins their number 2 pick in exchange for Cousins and their number 17 pick.  Whoever trades for Cousins has to know beforehand that Cousins will sign with them or else they end up giving up a high draft pick plus pay $24 million for a one year rental.  That will NEVER happen.  Period.  Only place I can see Cousins going to is the 49ers.   The Rams doesn't seem logical after what they gave up to draft Goff.   49ers..either this year for the number 2 pick...or next year for nothing.  

 

First, you are factually incorrect. The FACT is that July 15th is the deadline for a deal to be made. No matter how you might believe people are thinking, you can't change the CBA. And the CBA says the team has until July 15th to made a deal or he plays on the tag - provided they place the tag on him. Since we still have a full week they could actually still sign up before placing any tag on him.

 

The rest of your argument is predicated on assuming that the Redskins want to trade Kirk. Is it not possible the objective is to see what the market actually is before signing him long term. Both sides can better determine what is fair.

 

Did you not see the Von Miller negotiations? I realize he is not a QB. But he is the best player on the team. And what happened? He was signed at the last minute. Why is no unbelievable tat this might happen here?

 

Either way, there is no disputing the FACT that July 15th is the actual deadline no matter what other rationalizations you want to apply.

[Veryoldschool]

Some posters here are optimistic, counsel patience and make rational cases that a LTD will be done, I hope they are right.  My head tells me they are right because the reasons for doing a deal are so overwhelming that the Redskins must give him a top offer and get it done.  Not for a moment do I think Cousins would pass on signing a top 5 offer, I don't give any real credence to the Kirk just wants out of town scenarios in the media. That said, I've already descended into my psychic hidey hole because I expect crushing disappointment from a franchise that has disappointed so often and is infamous for bad decisions and dysfunction. 

[XtremeFan55]

Have you ever asked yourself "what would hurt more"?   Paying Cousins to a LTD at what he wants then seeing him plateau into an average top 20 quarterback and never getting past the first round like Stafford.   Or trading him away and THEN finding out he really is the heir apparent to Brady who gets better every year as he understands the game more.  Which one?  I personally think trading him away then finding out that he is even better than what we thought and he wins a Super Bowl for a different team someday.  That would drive the final nail in the coffin for me as a Redskins fan.  Nothing will win me back after that unless Snyder sold the team.  I would have to find another route to work since I drive by and work next to Redskins Park.

 

[jphilly]

2 minutes ago, XtremeFan55 said:

Have you ever asked yourself "what would hurt more"?   Paying Cousins to a LTD at what he wants then seeing him plateau into an average top 20 quarterback and never getting past the first round like Stafford.   Or trading him away and THEN finding out he really is the heir apparent to Brady who gets better every year as he understands the game more.  Which one?  I personally think trading him away then finding out that he is even better than what we thought and he wins a Super Bowl for a different team someday.  That would drive the final nail in the coffin for me as a Redskins fan.  Nothing will win me back after that unless Snyder sold the team.  I would have to find another route to work since I drive by and work next to Redskins Park.

Read my post again.  

 

 

You cant judge a player by what he does on another team . Thats why its a team sport and more then just one player . Yes QB is the most important player but it takes more then just him . So even if he did go off and win a SB , does not mean it would be the wrong choice or that he would win here . 

 

Im getting a feeling he wants to be the Top paid QB not just top 5  . Even top 12 is not far off from the top 5.   top 12 range is 20 - 24 million. So which side is the one fighting over a couple million ? Or is it just the guaranteed.  Kirk is smart enough " you hope " to know that the team needs money to build around him .

 

Maybe they come to a agreement and sign a shorter term deal to satisfy both .  Because  If he gets tagged again , no way in hell he stays for 2018 , its like a slap in face to offer a tag instead of a LTD after a prove it year

[mistertim]

13 minutes ago, XtremeFan55 said:

Have you ever asked yourself "what would hurt more"?   Paying Cousins to a LTD at what he wants then seeing him plateau into an average top 20 quarterback and never getting past the first round like Stafford.   Or trading him away and THEN finding out he really is the heir apparent to Brady who gets better every year as he understands the game more.  Which one?  I personally think trading him away then finding out that he is even better than what we thought and he wins a Super Bowl for a different team someday.  That would drive the final nail in the coffin for me as a Redskins fan.  Nothing will win me back after that unless Snyder sold the team.  I would have to find another route to work since I drive by and work next to Redskins Park.

 

 

The only place I have read or heard Kirk's name even in the same breath as guys like Brees and Brady is on ES, even just talking about "potential". If you're banking on him becoming one of the greatest to ever play the game you're very likely setting yourself up for disappointment. There are only a handful of guys like Brady and Brees and Rodgers and Peyton in the history of the NFL. The chances of us having one is very slim. That being said, he doesn't necessarily need to be on that level. He can be a "good" QB (which he is) but not elite or HOF level and likely still get the job done with the right supporting cast.

 

But seriously, EVERY fan base with a decent QB thinks/hopes their guy is the next Brady or Rodgers and will come up with comparisons.

[wit33]

When people say kirk is smart in relation to contract negotiations, what does this mean? 

 

Just not sure where all this privilege is coming from. 

[SkinsGuy]

49 minutes ago, Cliffmark1 said:

I don't think the redskins want kirk. They may not even trade him. Just let him walk. 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Do you feel the Skins feel in control now?  Unless the discussions behind closed doors between the Skins and Kirk's agent are a lot more cordial and productive with an agreement with in reach I doubt the Skins feel in control.  Cousins called their bluff last year and won and clearly is in the drivers seat today.

 

Absolutely. Kirk only gains control once he hits free agency, which right now the Redskins control whether or not that happens. They know this. Fan rhetoric and media speculation offers zero control over anything. I'm guessing that's why they don't put forth much (if any) effort in squelching it. There's only one way the Skins end up losers, and that's if they just let him go to free agency. No way in hell that happens.

[CTskin]

21 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

Some posters here are optimistic, counsel patience and make rational cases that a LTD will be done, I hope they are right.  My head tells me they are right because the reasons for doing a deal are so overwhelming that the Redskins must give him a top offer and get it done.  Not for a moment do I think Cousins would pass on signing a top 5 offer, I don't give any real credence to the Kirk just wants out of town scenarios in the media. That said, I've already descended into my psychic hidey hole because I expect crushing disappointment from a franchise that has disappointed so often and is infamous for bad decisions and dysfunction. 

Top 5 money would be fair market value, but you don't settle for fair market value when you have your opponent against the ropes. If he signs a LTD this off-season, it'll be for #1 money. All things considered, that's not really that big of a deal, it'll only be a couple million more than the top 5 average. 

 

At this point, I don't believe the struggle is the money as much as it is the idea of paying a top 12 QB, #1 money and thinking about if that money could be used more wisely elsewhere.  

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

10 minutes ago, wit33 said:

When people say kirk is smart in relation to contract negotiations, what does this mean? 

 

Just not sure where all this privilege is coming from. 

 

From a business stance, it is very smart because he can play under the FT two years and make 44 million fully guaranteed.  Then sign a LTD that will yield another huge payday (most likely).  He is maximizing his earnings by playing under the tag.  And it's not privilege, it's an option available to him via the FT rules agreed upon by both the owners and players association in the CBA.

 

Just because no other QB has taken this approach doesn't make Kirk a bad guy or privileged.  He's playing by the rules in place, nothing more and nothing less.  

[Wildbunny]

5 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

From a business stance, it is very smart because he can play under the FT two years and make 44 million fully guaranteed.  Then sign a LTD that will yield another huge payday (most likely).  He is maximizing his earnings by playing under the tag.  And it's not privilege, it's an option available to him via the FT rules agreed upon by both the owners and players association in the CBA.

 

Just because no other QB has taken this approach doesn't make Kirk a bad guy or privileged.  He's playing by the rules in place, nothing more and nothing less.  

Exactly. Which is interesting, because players generally don't like playing under the tag.

It will be interesting down the road to watch this evolve. If players starts to play too much on the tag to earn more money, I'm pretty sure it'll be high on the owners list of things to change when the CBA will come to an end.

[rick7423]

5 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

From a business stance, it is very smart because he can play under the FT two years and make 44 million fully guaranteed.  Then sign a LTD that will yield another huge payday (most likely).  He is maximizing his earnings by playing under the tag.  And it's not privilege, it's an option available to him via the FT rules agreed upon by both the owners and players association in the CBA.

 

Just because no other QB has taken this approach doesn't make Kirk a bad guy or privileged.  He's playing by the rules in place, nothing more and nothing less.  

Well said!

 

Kirk is the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time, and having performed good enough to gain interest and the respect of the NFL community.

 

If it were me, I would think I would do EXACTLY the same thing. In this modern age of the NFL, hometown discounts are only given if you already have many millions in the bank, have a supermodel wife, who makes more than you, and have multiple SB rings.

 

He will get what the market and the demand bears, I wish I were in his shoes.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

15 minutes ago, CTskin said:

Top 5 money would be fair market value, but you don't settle for fair market value when you have your opponent against the ropes. If he signs a LTD this off-season, it'll be for #1 money. All things considered, that's not really that big of a deal, it'll only be a couple million more than the top 5 average. 

 

At this point, I don't believe the struggle is the money as much as it is the idea of paying a top 12 QB, #1 money and thinking about if that money could be used more wisely elsewhere.  

 

No one ever is actually the highest paid player in the league lol...remember when Archuleta was the "highest paid safety in the NFL"?...it was more realistically a 4 year deal for $12 mil.

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

By the way, how did this become extremeskins' "greatest myth"?...

[lavar1156]

I'm ready for this to be over. Trade him for some picks. Draft a QB or even trade for a guy like AJ Mac, and let him compete with Colt and Suds.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

32 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

Absolutely. Kirk only gains control once he hits free agency, which right now the Redskins control whether or not that happens. They know this. Fan rhetoric and media speculation offers zero control over anything. I'm guessing that's why they don't put forth much (if any) effort in squelching it. There's only one way the Skins end up losers, and that's if they just let him go to free agency. No way in hell that happens.

 

Clinging to him for on more year thru another tag is not really being in control 

[GhostofAlvinWalton]

9 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Exactly. Which is interesting, because players generally don't like playing under the tag.

It will be interesting down the road to watch this evolve. If players starts to play too much on the tag to earn more money, I'm pretty sure it'll be high on the owners list of things to change when the CBA will come to an end.

 

"Players" don't like it because their careers could end (or be greatly damaged) at any moment on the field.  QBs don't face that same danger. Hell, I think more kickers have had career ending injuries than QBs the last ten years    

 

I don't think it will ever make sense for a player (other than QB) to want to play on the tag.  The guaranteed money on a "just ok" 3 year deal will always be more than a 1 yr tag...and if they get hurt they are protected.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

6 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

Clinging to him for on more year thru another tag is not really being in control 

 

Until they are in a situation in which they do not control where Cousins plays and how much he plays, the Redskins are in control. They would still control whether or not they want to franchise him again next year, what type of tag they want to place on him, whether they want to meet his salary demands, whether they want to release him outright, whether they want to bench him, etc, etc.

[mistertim]

24 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

By the way, how did this become extremeskins' "greatest myth"?...

 

Because the OP said so