Kilmer17 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said: I kinda checked out after 4pm EST yesterday, was running around like a crazy person and that EO went up and was tryna read it before coming back. So are we all in agreement it doesn't really fix the problem(s)? My read is: - detain everyone - keep kids with family tho - except the Flores agreement only allows detention of kids for so long - but gotta detain anyway - so Congress should override Flores before we're forced to separate kids again - oh and we have no idea what to do with the current kids...so...shhhhhhhh There is no answer. There hasn’t been one since Reagan. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: There is no answer. There hasn’t been one since Reagan. I mean, we got close twice with comprehensive bills, but, uhhh, certain congressmen with a certain letter in the back half of the alphabet killed them twice in the past 12 years. As for immediate detention issues, the whole "release on summons" strategy was working pretty good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Penta Quote Pentagon sending military lawyers to border to help prosecute immigration cases The lawyers will be appointed as full-time special assistant U.S. attorneys for as long as six months. gon sending military lawyers to border to help prosecute immigrationhttps://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/pentagon-sending-military-lawyers-border-help-prosecute-immigration-cases-n885216 c ases The lawyers will be appointed 25 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said: As for immediate detention issues, the whole "release on summons" strategy was working pretty good. how many ordered deported actually left? can someone give me numbers? especially with the previous administrations policy of non enforcement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD0506 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 2 hours ago, tshile said: You mean our government agencies went about the process of separating these families and shipping people around the country to camps but didn’t keep good track of who belonged with whom? and now are pointing fingers about who’s responsible for reunification? well, that doesn’t sound like federal government at all! I’m shocked we’ve found ourselves in this predicament.... I'm gonna guess that the Trump administration vomited out this policy without doing the necessary groundwork, pre-planning, and coordination with Justice, INS, and HHS to make it happen smoothly. So blame government, but calibrate your target. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 many of the trump cartoons are bad or silly. that one's good. Just now, Dan T. said: I'm gonna guess that the Trump administration vomited out this policy without doing the necessary groundwork, pre-planning, and coordination with Justice, INS, and HHS to make it happen smoothly. So blame government, but calibrate your target. And i'm guessing that people at the relevant agencies knew of this problem but didn't care because it was an issue for someone else. Because that's pretty much how I've seen such things go in government. Trump is bad. Not just for this, but this is definitely on the list. But this issue has required a failure of decency across the board by many people in many forms of government. Given how long this whole thing has been going on, there's even a failure on our part (the citizens) for not demanding more longer ago. I'm tired of trump being the end all be all of crap like this. The is the result of decades of failure across the board. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 1 minute ago, tshile said: many of the trump cartoons are bad or silly. that one's good. I'd give it a Pulitzer. Or a Nobel Peace Prize, because I hear there's one up for grabs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 11 minutes ago, tshile said: many of the trump cartoons are bad or silly. that one's good. And i'm guessing that people at the relevant agencies knew of this problem but didn't care because it was an issue for someone else. Because that's pretty much how I've seen such things go in government. Trump is bad. Not just for this, but this is definitely on the list. But this issue has required a failure of decency across the board by many people in many forms of government. Given how long this whole thing has been going on, there's even a failure on our part (the citizens) for not demanding more longer ago. I'm tired of trump being the end all be all of crap like this. The is the result of decades of failure across the board. Sorry, but for the zero tolerance/separate the children policy, Trump is the "end all be all of this crap." How long was the zero tolerance/separate the children policy in effect? How much planning, coordination, and preparation went into it? Was it sufficient? If not, look at leadership for foisting a devastating policy on agencies without giving them the time and direction to do it right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Just now, Dan T. said: Sorry, but for the zero tolerance/separate the children policy, Trump is the "end all be all of this crap." How long was the zero tolerance/separate the children policy in effect? How much planning, coordination, and preparation went into it? Was it sufficient? If not, look at leadership for foisting a devastating policy on agencies without giving them the time and direction to do it right. I guess i'm just tired of everyone pointing at trump and saying "look at what the monster is doing" while everyone else who has had a hand in this disaster walks free. No one else is receiving criticism. When the politicians retire we talk about how awesome they were and how much they'll be missed. At a time where honest people should be standing in front of a mic saying they ****ed up and dropped the ball, we've got finger pointing and the number of people who care to point out out seems to be almost no one. But yeah, sure. Look at what the monster is doing. He's a bad dude, no question about it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 7 hours ago, Destino said: These stories of abuse should surprise exactly no one. Is there a more ready made group for abuse than illegal children on the verge of deportation, that have been deprived of their freedom, separated from their parents, and hidden behind government agencies with zero transparency? People abuse the vulnerable. Sunday school? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedskinsFan44 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 29 minutes ago, tshile said: I guess i'm just tired of everyone pointing at trump and saying "look at what the monster is doing" while everyone else who has had a hand in this disaster walks free. No one else is receiving criticism. When the politicians retire we talk about how awesome they were and how much they'll be missed. At a time where honest people should be standing in front of a mic saying they ****ed up and dropped the ball, we've got finger pointing and the number of people who care to point out out seems to be almost no one. But yeah, sure. Look at what the monster is doing. He's a bad dude, no question about it. Obama got a whole lot of criticism for being weak on immigration. Now we are told that he was nearly as bad as Trump. The truth is in between. I suspect a large part of the problem is endemic to the border patrol / ICE. They are asked to do a thankless job dealing with large numbers of people which probably desensitizes a number of the agents. Having a President who encourages them to think of illegal immigrants as violent criminals doesn't help. Add: https://apnews.com/afc80e51b562462c89907b49ae624e79 Edited June 21, 2018 by RedskinsFan44 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh8686 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, tshile said: I guess i'm just tired of everyone pointing at trump and saying "look at what the monster is doing" while everyone else who has had a hand in this disaster walks free. No one else is receiving criticism. When the politicians retire we talk about how awesome they were and how much they'll be missed. At a time where honest people should be standing in front of a mic saying they ****ed up and dropped the ball, we've got finger pointing and the number of people who care to point out out seems to be almost no one. But yeah, sure. Look at what the monster is doing. He's a bad dude, no question about it. I actually agree with you, but it's human nature to focus on the lightning rod and the whole putting effort into operational discipline to maintain focus on the people setting the fires in the background, rather than the 4 alarm blaze that is trump himself, is hard to come by. People just don't have the training to get over the way this emotional vomit effects their nervous system, especially when they keep getting hit over and over again from one event after another. However, if we do take a breath and pause, we can acknowledge that there are people who are aware and acknowledge the problems before Trump that occurred throughout government that set the stage for someone like Trump to be next threshold breaching event of destruction that he is. That's why I'm happy to see some competent non-establishment democrats running and winning. People who aren't out for political careers, but running because they feel something is wrong and want to fix it. There are people on the conservative side who share this sentiment, but the problem is, most of their non-establishment choices are ****ing lunatics. Regardless of ideology, there needs to be a process that is sacrosanct. A process based on verifiable fact, a healthy expression of humanity and empathy (callousness is weakness), integrity, trust, self-awareness that is reflective and corrective of biases, and a mental competency that affords nuanced analysis, especially when dealing with competing or opposing forces/pressures. Edited June 21, 2018 by Fresh8686 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedskinsFan44 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 A reminder that the Senate overwhelmingly passed an immigration reform bill in 2013 only to have it die in the House: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_reform_in_the_United_States#Border_Security,_Economic_Opportunity,_and_Immigration_Modernization_Act_of_2013,_or_S.744 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 26 minutes ago, RedskinsFan44 said: Obama got a whole lot of criticism for being weak on immigration. Now we are told that he was nearly as bad as Trump. As someone who's spent a few posts pointing out that a lot of the forced-druggings and other things happened mostly, or even started, under Obama... I don't know how much of this is specifically his fault. I honestly blame congress a lot more for our problems than whoever the sitting president is at any given time; unless you can find where the president is refusing to do what congress is passing. I feel like lately (lately being quite a while at this point...) t's definitely been the other way around - congress is just no doing anything of value and is the entity dropping the ball the most often and in the worst ways. edit: but i think i've made my point about the situation. i will drop it. Edited June 21, 2018 by tshile 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 1 hour ago, twa said: Penta ases The lawyers will be appointed how many ordered deported actually left? can someone give me numbers? especially with the previous administrations policy of non enforcement. I think if we examine procedures your question becomes a bit of a non-sequitur. Generally speaking a person is ordered deported by a judge, in an immigration court, which means they are present in court, so while I've tried to find statistics about ordered deportions vs actaul deportions, they don't seem to be popping up easily. Presumably once you're ordered deported you're held until they put you on the plane. Most of the rub seems to be on people deported returning, but that's not what you asked. If you find different information please provide it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said: I think if we examine procedures your question becomes a bit of a non-sequitur. Generally speaking a person is ordered deported by a judge, in an immigration court, which means they are present in court, so while I've tried to find statistics about ordered deportions vs actaul deportions, they don't seem to be popping up easily. Presumably once you're ordered deported you're held until they put you on the plane. Most of the rub seems to be on people deported returning, but that's not what you asked. If you find different information please provide it. Ordered deported does not mean taken into custody and physically deported in the majority of cases from what I have seen....mainly in criminal cases and the expedited ones within the border areas. statistics are indeed hard to come by for some reason Quote ORDER OF REMOVAL If a person is not detained, an immigration judge may either make decisions on the day of the merits hearing or send the decision by mail. If the decision is sent by mail, the individual can stay with his or her family until the written decision is received. Decisions can be appealed. https://www.usatoday.com/pages/interactives/graphics/deportation-explainer/ there is also selecting self deportation for those w/o criminal records that can easily be abused and not enforced unless caught later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD0506 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, twa said: Ordered deported does not mean taken into custody and physically deported in the majority of cases from what I have seen....mainly in criminal cases and the expedited ones within the border areas. statistics are indeed hard to come by for some reason there is also selecting self deportation for those w/o criminal records that can easily be abused and not enforced unless caught later I would suspect that the numbers fit closely in line with absconding rates for appearances in court, which while not the exact same thing, is similar as it goes to compliance with court orders. Those rates sat around 5% in 2015, down from around 11% in 2010. I saw an article I'm trying to find that showed a new program was getting absconding rates as low as 1% before it was ended. So while we can't know for sure, I imagine it's not a massive widespread problem. _________________________________ Interestng change in births. Edited June 21, 2018 by DogofWar1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 So somebody ask Dick Durbin what HIS proposal is? **** that guy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 What a **** show. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Melania is touring a couple of facilities right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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