WP: It’s not just about RGIII, and Redskins’ Scot McCloughan has proven it

[TSO]

How do we know this? Seriously, what are the capital expenditures in these areas vs other teams? Is this a guess or is there numerical data to substantiate this claim?

This was talked about extensively pre-Scot hire. A lot of us really honed in on just how far behind we were to the rest of the league when it came to our facilities and scouts... Redskins Park is a ****hole in comparison to most around the league, that's not even debatable.

As for the scouting department, we were extremely top heavy. To elaborate, we had a ton of execs/officers and a lower amount of local, on the ground, scouts than most teams. So kind of a weird deal there, like the money was being spent as I'm sure those execs were costly, but probably not wisely.

I don't think SkinsHokie is far off base here, fellas.

[thebluefood]

An excellent article! Thank you for posting it.

 

McCloughan's got a good resume and he took over some pretty rough teams on the west coast. We're still a long way away from competing, but I have faith this man - if given the time and resources - will build this team into a winner again.

[chipwhich]

I don't think SkinsHokie is far off base here, fellas.

 

Well we really don't know because we haven't really let a GM run the team, we had coaches that were the GM's for the most part.  I have no idea if our scouting department is good because Vinny, Gibbs, and Shanny weren't known for their drafting of players.

 

Obviously the team needs to get back to building from the draft, but as to who was actually drafted the last 20, well we had drunks at the wheel.

[goskins10]

This was talked about extensively pre-Scot hire. A lot of us really honed in on just how far behind we were to the rest of the league when it came to our facilities and scouts... Redskins Park is a ****hole in comparison to most around the league, that's not even debatable.

As for the scouting department, we were extremely top heavy. To elaborate, we had a ton of execs/officers and a lower amount of local, on the ground, scouts than most teams. So kind of a weird deal there, like the money was being spent as I'm sure those execs were costly, but probably not wisely.

I don't think SkinsHokie is far off base here, fellas.

 

You say it's not debatable yet my understanding is that they just put in a completely new weight room and set of facilities for the team, I believe 2 yrs ago, maybe 3. I know because they made room for more free weights because their last trainer liked machines more. 

 

As for scouting, not spending it wisely is not the same as not spending money which is what was stated - "very little in scouting" was the quote which is just not true.

 

 

SkinsHokieFan, on 26 Jul 2015 - 9:06 PM, said:

I heard about the offices, but its still the usual half ass measure like a bubble is in front of the place

Virginia freakin Tech just opened up a state of the art indoor practice facility this week.

I don't understand with all the resources the team has the most D-1 schools have better weight rooms, S&C and infrastructure then the Washington Redskins do.

A few offices are nice, but when scouting contracts were up in early May I really would have liked to have seen the team go out and grab a few of the best ones from the Pats/Steelers/Ravens/Seahawks and bring them on in. I am hoping that Scot simply will do that in year 2

 

When was the last time Virginia Tech updated their facilities? Do they do it every year? The Redskins just opened a new facility a few years ago because they added a lot of free weights they had not had for a while. Should they do it every year? As for scouting, the fact is they did not get who you wanted. It's already been documented if anything we were top heavy in scouting. But that means danny was spending the money, probably just not wisely.

 

I am really not trying to be a jerk here. I can't stand danny boy either and wish he would sell the team. But I am also interested in the facts. And to be honest the statement that he is not spending money on the team just not true. he may not be spending it wisely, but one of the very few positives about danny is that he is willing to spend money. 

 

Again if there is data to refute that, I would be very interested in seeing it and will be glad to change my position.

[TK]

Here's the thing on the weight room. It doesn't matter how many times it's redone if the confined space stays the same. You can update equipment every year but you're only going to get so much in there.

The Park was outdated when Dan took over. They didn't even have computers in there. Hell, they even found a Championship trophy in a broom closet.

I've even had a player tell me that they've asked free agents when they come in how the facility compared to others in the League & they all were putting it near the bottom.

The Park itself needs to be rebuilt, which will come with a new stadium.

[bedlamVR]

Thie problems that are often attributed to the facilities go back to the last ownership (the cookes) who built an out dated facility very expensivly ( just like any stadium project in the uk) and to that end it is very limited in what can be done to improve it without tearing it down and starting again (something I think would be interesting to see) ...there are only 11 stadiums that are older than ours in the nfl and in that I am counting lambeu field .

I am sure there are things you could do like build traing facilities away from the park but then given most players train away from the park anyway and training camp itself is in Richmond would that actually be a worthwhile investment ?

[MrSilverMaC]

This article reminded me why I stopped reading most of the articles posted about the Skins. Not because it's trash, but because pretty much every other article written about the Skins the last couple years ISN'T this article. Luckily I decided to click on it. Good writing Mr. Brewer.

 

Griffin is what he is. Either he'll prove his doubters/haters/realists (I'll leave it up to you to label us as you see fit) wrong or he'll vindicate those same people. But regardless of what Griffin does the rest of the team needed to be upgraded. Luckily for Redskins' fans the guy that was coaxed into being the gm for the team is approaching the Redskins' rebuilding as a team project and not just a "fix RG3" job. Hopefully he knows what he's doing. I assuming as much cause it's hard to believe he was just in the right place at the right time for his last few gigs.

[goskins10]

Here's the thing on the weight room. It doesn't matter how many times it's redone if the confined space stays the same. You can update equipment every year but you're only going to get so much in there.

The Park was outdated when Dan took over. They didn't even have computers in there. Hell, they even found a Championship trophy in a broom closet.

I've even had a player tell me that they've asked free agents when they come in how the facility compared to others in the League & they all were putting it near the bottom.

The Park itself needs to be rebuilt, which will come with a new stadium.

 

OK, let's assume this is a ll true - not doubting, just saying of the sake of argument. How is that Dan not spending money on the team? If you say he is limited, the only thing he can do is get a new stadium, which I believe he has been trying to do for several years. MD and DC both have not worked with him. I absolutely do not know the details of those negotiations, but still the statement was made he runs a cheap operation and I just don't think there is data to support that. 

 

Didn't he just spend quite of bit of money with the city of Richmond to build the TC facility? And OK, there is limited space to make changes in the weight room, but he is doing what he can. 

[DJD2]

OK, let's assume this is a ll true - not doubting, just saying of the sake of argument. How is that Dan not spending money on the team? If you say he is limited, the only thing he can do is get a new stadium, which I believe he has been trying to do for several years. MD and DC both have not worked with him. I absolutely do not know the details of those negotiations, but still the statement was made he runs a cheap operation and I just don't think there is data to support that. 

 

Didn't he just spend quite of bit of money with the city of Richmond to build the TC facility? And OK, there is limited space to make changes in the weight room, but he is doing what he can. 

 

Pretty sure the city's economic development authority opened up their pocketbooks to build the facility (and it's becoming clearer every year that whatever the city thought they were going to get in return ain't gonna happen).

[goskins10]

Pretty sure the city's economic development authority opened up their pocketbooks to build the facility (and it's becoming clearer every year that whatever the city thought they were going to get in return ain't gonna happen).

 

 

Considering the 2nd year of the training camp is just now starting, you care to provide any data support your "clearer every year" statement? The city did not do it alone. Danny spent some money to get it done.

 

People keep saying what about this and what about that, but no one has numbers, hard data showing that Danny spends near the bottom of the league on the team outside players.

 

I get everyone hates danny. But blind hate is not useful. There are plenty of real things to hate him for we don't need to just pile and make things up. Again, if someone has any data I would be very interested to see it.

[DJD2]

Considering the 2nd year of the training camp is just now starting, you care to provide any data support your "clearer every year" statement? The city did not do it alone. Danny spent some money to get it done.

 

People keep saying what about this and what about that, but no one has numbers, hard data showing that Danny spends near the bottom of the league on the team outside players.

 

I get everyone hates danny. But blind hate is not useful. There are plenty of real things to hate him for we don't need to just pile and make things up. Again, if someone has any data I would be very interested to see it.

 

This is year 3 in Richmond.

 

I live here and can tell you that there have been many articles written about this subject and that the hard data so far shows what a bad deal it has been for the city (this past weekend's paper had yet another article that can give you the gist).

 

http://www.richmond.com/sports/article_a31a808d-7b6c-5fca-91b8-3a2fcf648ea4.html

 

Snyder didn't pay for the training camp site, the city of Richmond did, while also giving the team a sweetheart deal on incentives.

 

Carry on.

[Burgold]

 

 

Snyder didn't pay for the training camp site, the city of Richmond did, while also giving the team a sweetheart deal on incentives.

 

Carry on.

I think that's pretty typical. The idea is that revenues will be generated by visitors stopping at local restaurants, bars, drug stores, and maybe even hotels. You hope if you're Richmond that the fans linger and enjoy what the city has to offer. It's like the Olympics in that way. Most cities lose money on the Olympics because they invest so much into building infrastructure and developing security, but they do so with the hopes that they'll get it back in PR and tourist bucks.

 

Heck, I think the Raven's pay the state of Maryland one dollar a year to rent the football stadium and then keep all monies generated by it. It was a horrific deal for Baltimore and Maryland, but it kind of works because of the spillover into the Inner Harbor. Fed Ex Field doesn't work as well even though Cooke paid for the stadium and owns it because there's very little in sight before and after the games. So, fans just come and go.

 

If Richmond isn't reaping they need to look at themselves, not the Redskins.

[SkinsGuy]

This is year 3 in Richmond.

 

I live here and can tell you that there have been many articles written about this subject and that the hard data so far shows what a bad deal it has been for the city (this past weekend's paper had yet another article that can give you the gist).

 

http://www.richmond.com/sports/article_a31a808d-7b6c-5fca-91b8-3a2fcf648ea4.html

 

Snyder didn't pay for the training camp site, the city of Richmond did, while also giving the team a sweetheart deal on incentives.

 

Carry on.

I read that article. God forbid, Snyder should be a shrewd negotiator and get the best deal for the team.

From what I read, it seems Richmond not making out on this TC deal yet, is less about Snyder's "greed", and more about typical government mis-management. Since when has any government run anything properly (besides collecting tax money), and was in the black?

Even food vendors that work with the government groups won't be back because "they never make money with them no matter what the event is".

Yet the vendors (food and merchandise) that partnered with the Redskins are doing great. Why? Because they are a private business that knows how to do such things and the government does not.

Believe me, I live in Richmond. I know what a bunch of ****s are running this city. They can't even figure out where to put a baseball stadium.

As goskins10 said, Snyder deserves criticism for a good deal of things, but acting like he is some ultra tightwad, stingily iron-fisting his funds as Redskin Park falls down around him while greedily sucking in every dollar he can get his hands on is sheer nonsense and comes from the lamest and oldest stereotypes of corporate CEOs.

If that was Snyder, he wouldn't be planning to build a new stadium now. He'd just stay in Fed Ex and keep it as it is until it crumbled down around him.

[pjfootballer]

The current Reskins Park was built when George Allen was the head coach.  Sometime in the early 70s.  The facility DOES need to be replaced and I think most are in agreement with that fact.  Didn't we read a year or two ago that Dan is looking to either rebuild or relocate Redskins Park, but is having a hard time dealing with Virginia and their regulations?  Or something to that effect? 

 

I'm sure Dan wants the best, but unfortunately these things take time.

Hell, look at DC United. It took them FOREVER to "just" finally get approval for a new stadium. I'm not sure they have broken ground yet and they've been wanting/needing a new stadium for about 10 years.  Meanwhile, just about every MLS team has a new stadium.  Something about the DMV that slows the process down.

 

Fed Ex is up in 2027, I believe.  I think we'll need the whole 12 years just to find a place to put a new stadium.  Meanwhile, in Atlanta, they are now on their 2nd new stadium in about the same amount of time.

[SkinsHokieFan]

 

 

Do you have access to data showing that as compared to rest of the league the Redskins are at the bottom of the league?

 

 

 

There is quite a bit of data I have read, recent and over the years. Trying to pull it all up now, so give me a few hours and I'll have it

[Peregrine]

Good article, and I think it speaks to the fact that if the play of your QB is THE determining factor of whether you make the playoffs or not, you have a bad team.  

 

A good team with a poor QB should always make the playoffs.  Its just going deep in the playoffs is where you, in MOST cases, need good QB play as well.

[DJD2]

 Didn't we read a year or two ago that Dan is looking to either rebuild or relocate Redskins Park, but is having a hard time dealing with Virginia and their regulations?  Or something to that effect? 

 

I think keeping the facility in Ashburn was part of the Richmond TC deal. If I'm not mistaken the team got $ 4M from the state for that part (I'm assuming to help with upgrades to the facility, etc.).

[TD_washingtonredskins]

The reality is, its going to take 2-3 years worth of draft and FA classes before McC can really put his imprint on this team.

 

I'm thinking this year will be another struggle year(5-11/6-10 ish). Next year we finish around 8-8. 2017 we become a fringe playoff team(maybe make it depending on the strength of the rest of the division).

 

McC is building this the right way which means it'll take time. The truth is this franchise has never really committed to a true rebuild.

 

I would be elated with this timeline, but also believe we have to accept a non-linear version of it. With only 16 games, our team could easily have double-digit wins each of the next two years without it being an indictment of McCloughan. I think the goal should be that we see SOME level of improvement by 2017. 

[goskins10]

Posted Today, 11:23 AM

Warhead36, on 26 Jul 2015 - 7:50 PM, said:

The reality is, its going to take 2-3 years worth of draft and FA classes before McC can really put his imprint on this team.

 

I'm thinking this year will be another struggle year(5-11/6-10 ish). Next year we finish around 8-8. 2017 we become a fringe playoff team(maybe make it depending on the strength of the rest of the division).

 

McC is building this the right way which means it'll take time. The truth is this franchise has never really committed to a true rebuild.

 

TD_washingtonredskins response:

 

I would be elated with this timeline, but also believe we have to accept a non-linear version of it. With only 16 games, our team could easily have double-digit wins each of the next two years without it being an indictment of McCloughan. I think the goal should be that we see SOME level of improvement by 2017. 

 

 

 

 

I totally agree with both. Here is what I wonder though (I am not the first to pose this question but I plan to pose it anyway): Just how much patience does this fan-base really have? Do we (yes I include myself) have enough patience to let Scot M. see this project through? I wish I had thought of it earlier, but I would like to have a copy of every person who said some variation of: "We need to be patient and let the plan work. We are not going to be very good". "1st year. etc.....".  Then check in mid-season when we are 3-6 and our of it yet again. I wonder how many will still be OK with the 2 to 3 yr plan. Just curious.

[grego]

Well we really don't know because we haven't really let a GM run the team, we had coaches that were the GM's for the most part.  I have no idea if our scouting department is good because Vinny, Gibbs, and Shanny weren't known for their drafting of players.

 

Obviously the team needs to get back to building from the draft, but as to who was actually drafted the last 20, well we had drunks at the wheel.

 

 

winner, winner.

 

if youre looking for the reason we've stunk for nearly two decades (minus a year or two here and there), this is it.

 

digging a bit deeper that simply 'dan being the owner'- specifically, dans decision to not have a bona fide GM (vinny/gibbs/shanahan/bruce are not) has cost this team dearly. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

2010: New QB, New HC, New OC, New DC

2011: New QB

2012: New QB

2013: Familiar Disfunction

2014: New HC, new GM

2015: New GM, New DC

2016: New QB

2017: New Coach

 

and so it goes...

This was more along the lines of my thoughts.  I'm mostly excited to see what the next "big thing" will be.  Will the Skins reach back to their old tricks (new QB?) or something else that is actually new that we don't see coming (new stadium)?  It's sad that becoming an actual winning football team doesn't even cross my mind anymore.  But it seems the way this team operates is to do something big every few years and the majority of the fans will think all is well.  (I know no one on ES was ever tricked before I get yelled at by someone saying they KNEW X or Y was a bad idea.)

 

Look how it always has happened though. 

 

Yay we got Gibbs back.  The chosen one is home.  We will return to glory!

Zorn:  Okay most knew that was bad.

Shanny:  Finally a proven winner with rings.  All is well again!

Gruden: Yay a real up and comer instead of a retread.

RG3:  Finally a franchise QB to take us to the promised land.

Bruce Allen: Yay someone who bleeds B&G.  He will make it all right.

 

Etc, etc, etc.

 

Alas, we end up being the same ole Skins.

[Jumbo]

I was going to put a shorter this in the twitter thread due to relevant posts, but we try to keep anything rg3 related to a minimum there, and given the title/content of this thread it fits here.

 

I note part of a predicted still-forming trend where folks find comfort in the idea that Scot is building this team as a whole for long term success and an established consistent identity, and is not "just trying to fix rg3."

 

That's logical and should even be "in the Capt Obvious" realm in what we should expect from a competent GM. But that doesn't mean logic and what should be obvious are regularly recognized on a message board. And he's arguably the first really competent GM we've had in a long long time.

 

The comfort (attraction) this theme provides should be obvious too. It gives hope (actually reasonable and rational) that even if rg3 doesn't come through, the future is still brighter than it's been in a long time.

 

Now seeing Scot being pretty "untied" from having critiques of his job performance too heavily influenced by rg3's play this next season is both welcome and rational to me.

 

Which brings me to the HC. The role of a HC is different than a GM of course, but I have always seen the HC as a guy who also needs to be looking at the team as a whole--and not just a guy to "save the qb"  for instance.

 

Jay was very heavily cast in that specific role, primarily by media and fans here and was held hugely accountable to that notion as featured in endless blame/arguing/spinning stuff.

 

Many of ES often said (wrongly enough, particularly in its exaggerated simplicity) "that's why he was hired!" And then followed such with a one-year review of "he sucks! he's stupid!" This was mostly (often neurotically) embodied in the mega-repetition mantras of the devout rg3 fanboys.

 

Jay has a lot to prove here, beyond the QB situation. His competence as a HC across the board is quite open to challenge. He arrived well-respected in the profession, if still "new" and having peaked at the OC position in the nfl to that point. But now he's HC and that's a whole 'nother gig. 

 

The HC is a different deal than GM (or OC) in their impact on QB play, but I think that Jay should be evaluated this next year with more separation from Rg3.

 

In his rookie year, Jay had the same ****ty defense, 0-line, and overall ****ed-up environment Robert had, that serves as so many excuses (legitimate and not) for Robert's struggles. Plus Jay was trying to bring in a new system in little pieces with 3 qbs who varied wildly---which many here actually blamed Jay for, e.g."regressing" them all---during the season. This, all the while being sure some of his staff would be departing. Kind of a lot of stuff.

 

I don't think "saving rg3" should be some primary litmus test to his worth, and don't think it should have been last year. I think Jay is accountable for putting players into a position to succeed. I think he did that a lot last year and the players just often sucked too hard too often. And I think it's fairly argued that Jay failed often enough. The truth is even "genius" play-callers lose games and have many fails, though I can't see anyone intelligently arguing Jay is a genius (or a bum ) at this point.  

 

I know Scot separates these matters in his evaluation, and I'd state he thinks the HC role is more vital than the QB role in his view of ideal team structure, without ignoring the importance of the connection between the two.

[RedBeast]

I dont read a lot of long posts. But when I do? I am glad some are well thought out and articulated; also with paragraphs.

Stay thirsty my friends (kudos Jumbo)

[Burgold]

It's not that Jay needs to "save" RGIII, Jumbo. It's that (in my opinion,) he needs to prove by some metric that he can be a successful head coach. I'm not completely sure how we quantify it, but the most common way is wins, the other way is rankings. His hand picked successor to Haslett, who no one else in the entire NFL would have likely picked, has to shore up the defense. We've seen tremendous one year turnarounds on D, think Gregg Williams first year with Gibbs, so it is possible.

 

We also need to see the team just play better, smarter, faster, and all other things bionic.

 

The reason I do tie his fate to RGIII is that if the QB fails usually the team fails. That may not be fair and McCloughan may be looking at a more complex set of variables, but I'd guess that Jay can't afford to fail in his second year after failing so badly in his first. The other thing I wonder about is whether they are a philosophical fit. The number one complaint about Jay in Cincinnati is that he strayed from the run too often. Here too, that complaint followed him. McCloughan's success were with old school, beat you up, sock you in the face running teams.

Jay says he will run more, but will he? If he doesn't and this QB struggles, the team struggles, etc. I'd expect McCloughan will feel an urge to get his guy to build the team.

 

All that said, I suspect McCloughan wants Jay to succeed. It's easier and continuity is best for a team as long as bad habits and losing aren't the thing being continually taught. I know my preference is to see Jay improve this team enough that his leaving isn't a part of the conversation. For that to happen though, I really do think one of our QBs will have to step up.

[chipwhich]

 

In his rookie year, Jay had the same ****ty defense, 0-line, and overall ****ed-up environment Robert had, that serves as so many excuses (legitimate and not) for Robert's struggles. Plus Jay was trying to bring in a new system in little pieces with 3 qbs who varied wildly---which many here actually blamed Jay for, e.g."regressing" them all---during the season. This, all the while being sure some of his staff would be departing. Kind of a lot of stuff.

 

I don't think "saving rg3" should be some primary litmus test to his worth, and don't think it should have been last year. I think Jay is accountable for putting players into a position to succeed. I think he did that a lot last year and the players just often sucked too hard too often. And I think it's fairly argued that Jay failed often enough. The truth is even "genius" play-callers lose games and have many fails, though I can't see anyone intelligently arguing Jay is a genius (or a bum ) at this point. 

 

 

As I have posted on here before, I love Jay.  I thank him for us finally getting a GM.  Jay recognized immediately that this franchise was a hot mess, and he decided he wasn't going out like Jim Zorn.  He fully exposed the franchise for the circus show it was (not that everyone didn't already know but he took it to rock bottom). 

 

He shed more embarrassment on the team by opening the kimono and calling out stuff that just wasn't kosher.

 

This year we can judge Jay the coach, unlike last year when Jay was running the daycare center.

Great post.