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Some More Cops Who Need to Be Fired


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this basically says what I said, except that in Virginia it's a county by county/city by city ordinance thing. not a statewide thing. my personal instance was in newport news, which i know all about some of their special ordinances. and my conversations with law enforcement people were in a handful of very specific counties/cities.

 

so, your mileage may vary

https://tingenwilliams.com/2019/stop-and-identify-virginia/30747

 

(also it's a blog post on a law firm's site and I know nothing about that law firm so idk)

 

also, there are states with a state-wide law that requires you to identify yourself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes

Edited by tshile
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NFL player breaks ranks with team on victim they chose to honor. The NFL needs to relook the victims of police shootings that they have on their list to honor. I would have refused to put the name of the guy chosen by the team on my helmet as well (team decision or not). 
 
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43 minutes ago, tshile said:

Because the first thing they want to know is who you are. And there’s reasons for that. 
 

I do not know where the line in an interaction is that police can require an ID. My understanding is that if you’re in a vehicle that’s been pulled over, they absolutely may demand everyone’s ID. 
 

now, from the people I know, they didn’t beat you for it. They just arrested you and took you to booking until they could find out who you are.  Detained might be the 'correct' term here.
 

they also did the same thing with people who try the “no speak English” card. It is amazing how some learn English very quickly when they realize they’re going to be hauled off to the jail for ID and that simply saying “no speak English” isn’t a free pass to get the police to leave you alone. (Mentioning it cause I think it fits with the ID issue)

 

Some things I've at least been told.  (By criminal lawyers.)  

 

1)  The famous "They can only hold you for 24 hours" rule?  The clock doesn't start until you've been identified.  It's also an exception to the "You have the right to remain silent".  Yes, you must identify yourself.  (And that doesn't mean just your name.)  

 

2)  Decades ago, friend told me he got pulled over for driving in the bus lane on Columbia Pike.  Tried to pull the "No speak English" on the officer.  Kept repeating "Boose lin"

 

Cop let him do it like three times and said "Look, you can get the ticket.  Or I can arrest you, take you to booking, and they can hold you until we call the state department and ask them to send a translator for whatever mumbo jumbo language you claim to speak."  

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44 minutes ago, nonniey said:
NFL player breaks ranks with team on victim they chose to honor. The NFL needs to relook the victims of police shootings that they have on their list to honor. I would have refused to put the name of the guy chosen by the team on my helmet as well (team decision or not). 
 


.

Quote

Rose was 17 years old when he died.[7] He had worked as a community volunteer and was a student at Woodland Hills High School, where he took Advanced Placementclasses.[8] Rose had no significant criminal record prior to his death.[9] His mother had been a clerk for another police department.[9]
 

 

 

Rosfeld had been sworn in to the East Pittsburgh Police Department only a few hours before the shooting, and trained with the department for three weeks prior. He had seven years experience with other police departments, including those in the Pennsylvania towns of Oakmont and Harmar, and the University of Pittsburgh.[10] Rosfeld left the University of Pittsburgh “after discrepancies were found between one of his sworn statements and evidence in an arrest.

 

why not @nonniey

 

???

Edited by CousinsCowgirl84
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32 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

why not @nonniey

 

???

For this part - 

"There was a drive-by shooting in North Braddock around 8:30 p.m. Just 10 minutes later, police stopped a car matching witness descriptions of the silver Chevrolet Cruze used in the drive-by shooting. The police observed bullet holes on the side of the car.[12]

A video recording taken by a bystander shows police ordering the driver to step out from the car.[12] While the driver was being handcuffed, Rose and the third occupant, Zaijuan Hester, ran from the car."

 

He was suspected of an attempted murder 10 minutes prior and yes they got the right car and he was part of that attempted murder (in other words an active threat to the community).  I just want to point out don't make heroes out of those that were killed with good justification and certainly don't criticize those that refuse to go along with it when you do. There are plenty of examples (plenty) of non justified killings by the police the NFL can use - this wasn't one of them.

Edited by nonniey
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1 hour ago, Larry said:

Cop let him do it like three times and said "Look, you can get the ticket.  Or I can arrest you, take you to booking, and they can hold you until we call the state department and ask them to send a translator for whatever mumbo jumbo language you claim to speak."  

Yup.

 

story i know - the back page of their notebook had a drawing of a stickman behind bars. show the picture "you no hable englis now?" they always managed to speak english after that.

 

it's very easy to get lost in the brutality aspect. what we see is, many times, outrageous. and the response from the police is unacceptable, and that's putting it mildly (it's so unacceptable I've recently gotten a die-hard pro-law-enforcement retired LE member to finally admit "yeah, there's a problem here" although it came with the "but we shouldn't be burning things down" qualifier, of course.) and when that happens it's easy to forget, especially if you're not personally aware of it (worked the field, or have loved ones you trust that work the field and tell you about it), what it is these people are dealing with on a day to day basis. it's mostly uncooperative, 'bad' people who do awful things like assault officers, spit on officers. people who have diseases. people who are legitimately hurting other people. people that are drug dealers. that carry guns or other weapons illegally. people who keep pointy things in their pockets (needles for example), and don't tell the officers. and all of them lie about everything - that they didn't do anything, that they don't have anything on them that's illegal, that they haven't hurt anyone, that they don't have warrants, that they don't have needles in their pocket. and they lie about who they are. constantly.

 

just like it's easy to forget that the police have a job to protect the communities when rioting starts. and that rioting uses protesting as a disguise, and therefore protests have to be dealt with on some level. and that there are members of these communities that do not want their community trashed, burned up, and looted; even if they also agree there is a problem with the police.

 

none of that excuses the brutality. none of it. but i think a productive conversation requires being honest about all sides here. and i think we're not seeing a lot of honesty about the whole situation.

Edited by tshile
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42 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

Considering the Burough of East Pittsburgh paid the Rose family $2 mil to settle, I'm not sure justified killing fits this one. 

 

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/crime-courts/2019/10/29/antwon-rose-michael-rosfeld-civil-rights-suit-settlement-east-pittsburgh/stories/201910290094

 

 

That was a political decision (As was the prosecution of the police officer - think about that - that is scary)  they decided not to fight it even though they likely would have won.

 

Edited by nonniey
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1 hour ago, nonniey said:

That was a political decision (As was the prosecution of the police officer - think about that - that is scary)  they decided not to fight it even though they likely would have won.

 

 

You know, Egon?  This reminds me of that time you tried to drill a hole through your head.  

 

That would have worked if you hadn't stopped me.  

 

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I don't understand what the Steelers stuff has to do with the topic of this thread.

 

Re: ID, my understanding is that in some states police can walk up to you and ask your for your name and you must give it. This does not mean that you are required to present ID. In other states you are not even required to give your name.

 

However, if police have suspicion of a crime of some kind, they can require you to present ID at that point. There isn't much restriction on this and they use it liberally. So in practice, they can easily strongarm most people into presenting ID.

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Yanno.....this is probably just my morning getting coffe'd up phase talkin, but to me it is not about the technical legalese covering showing ID, etc., it is the inconsistency of so many interactions the police have with the public. One gets talked n walked, another gets a baton shampoo, the real world application of so many of these things belies the underlying law.

 

I know I date myself talking about it, but I actually remember when the police were part of the community. You knew them by name, they knew you, they were your buddy's dad or went to school with your older brothers and it was not the aggressively oppositional occupying army standoff we so often see today. I am cynical enough to believe on some level this has been brought about intentionally.

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51 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

but to me it is not about the technical legalese covering showing ID

But it is. We clearly have police that think you are required and will go to lengths to enforce the requirement, and a lot of people who think it’s their right to not identify themselves and are willing to fight for it. 
 

We need less confusions and less points for confrontation right now. 
 

Reducing it to “all that matters is they beat people” sounds great but it’s counter productive, at best. 

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1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

What is a good reason for not giving a police officer your ID?

 

Wanna get your ass kicked. 

 

My mother raised me scared ****less that if I was ever caught without an ID I would be arrested lol. And im still not sure if its true or not but I literally have no reason to test it. Ill never understand not giving it to them. Even if you have a warrant. Its easier to not get your ass kicked. If they ask you, they aint taking no for an answer. Thats no how any of this works. 

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1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

What is a good reason for not giving a police officer your ID?

 

Is there a law that I am unaware of that says you must have an ID? 

 

To me it would go...require one first, then you can require it to be shown. 

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1 hour ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

Is there a law that I am unaware of that says you must have an ID? 

 

To me it would go...require one first, then you can require it to be shown. 


So, then, what you are saying is that you aren’t doing it cause you know your rights. Sounds a lot like anti maskers to me lol....

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19 hours ago, The Evil Genius said:

Considering the Burough of East Pittsburgh paid the Rose family $2 mil to settle, I'm not sure justified killing fits this one. 

 

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/crime-courts/2019/10/29/antwon-rose-michael-rosfeld-civil-rights-suit-settlement-east-pittsburgh/stories/201910290094

 

 


It’s possible that a person was shot wrongly, that also participated in a drive by shooting.  This appears to be the case with Rose.  I’m still onboard with holding police accountable, but I wouldn’t want to wear an attempted murderers name on my helmet.  Not ever story has a hero and a villain.  

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4 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

What is a good reason for not giving a police officer your ID?


The fact that the constitution says they can't demand it?  
 

Historical triggers, from "You. Give me your papers." to "What you doing in this neighborhood, boy?"  
 

37 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:


So, then, what you are saying is that you aren’t doing it cause you know your rights. Sounds a lot like anti maskers to me lol....


Analogies are like farts. 
 

If you have to force it, it's probably crap. 

Edited by Larry
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1 hour ago, Destino said:


It’s possible that a person was shot wrongly, that also participated in a drive by shooting.  This appears to be the case with Rose.  I’m still onboard with holding police accountable, but I wouldn’t want to wear an attempted murderers name on my helmet.  Not ever story has a hero and a villain.  

 

I get that Des but I'd bet that some people passing on knowledge of the case only from Wikipedia is dangerous too. From what I have read, Rose was a honors student (even at the time of the shooting) who, according to his Mother, had a good relationship with the police (even got rides home with them in the past) until he turned 16 and then had a negative experience when he and his sister were pulled over and had guns pulled on them. I'm not sure if that played into his running or the question of whether he was in the car at the time of the shooting did. I do know the driver of the car was later arrested and what I don't know is if Rose was ever convicted after his death (or do they even do that?).

 

I would hope that we can all agree that shooting an unarmed teenager in the back, head, and arm while running from a car isn't normal. Even ones thought of as being part of a drive by.

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Ahem.

 

https://www.pghcitypaper.com/pittsburgh/antwon-roses-wikipedia-page-edited-to-imply-he-was-a-criminal-after-two-steelers-players-broke-away-from-roses-tribute/Content?oid=18020988&media=AMP+HTML

 

Quote

After that, right-wing media started to spread incomplete and outdated information about the incidents that preceded Rose’s death, and all of the same attacks that were lobbied against in 2018-19 were repeated, like the false assertion that Rose carried out a drive-by shooting shortly before his encounter with East Pittsburgh Police. All these rehashed and inaccurate attacks against Rose occurred, even though Allegheny County District Attorney absolved Rose of any criminal wrongdoing last year.

But that didn’t stop users from editing Rose’s Wikipedia page in the aftermath of Villanueva’s and Pouncey’s actions. On Sept. 16, one user edited Rose’s page to say that Rose “fled officers attempting to apprehend him after the shooting, stashing a weapon under his seat. Gunshot residue was later found on his hand.” This edit implying that Rose was the shooter in a drive-by shooting that occurred on June 19, 2018 shortly before Rose was shot by police is false.

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

What is a good reason for not giving a police officer your ID?

You've done nothing to warrant being IDed and it is a violation of your privacy.

 

10 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:


So, then, what you are saying is that you aren’t doing it cause you know your rights. Sounds a lot like anti maskers to me lol....

No, because one is actually about personal freedom, and the other is literally killing people.  Personal freedom becomes less personal when it kills others.  What's the old saying?  Your right to swing your fist ends at my face?

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