NFL.com: Cousins outplaying Griffin?

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Let me show you why I'm not totally sold on RG3 and why preseason does matter for a team thats only made the playoffs 3 times in 20 years.

 

This is the game from last week, we drove down and had a 2nd and 10 at the 18 yard line after Morris ran for no gain.

 

This is 3 frames showing how Robert didnt go through his progressions, he starred down the receiver and missed a wide open Jordan Reed for what would have been either a 1st and goal at the 1 or 2 yard line and possibly a touchdown.

 

Pic 1 - Ball is hiked, Robert has a nice pocket and stares down the outside option on the right.

 

 

 

Pic 2 - The O lineman gets pushed back into Robert a bit but he holds his block and Robert is still starring down the same receiver.  The Cb notices this and starts to make his move towards the receiver knowing that Robert is about to throw it to him.

 

Notice the pocket in front of Robert (He didnt step up into it), and notice how open Jordan Reed is (top left of the pic).

 

 

 

Pic 3 - The CB read the play and was in position to possibly pick off the ball if the pass wasnt so bad, once again notice Jordan Reed in the top left of the screen.  Keep in mind Robert was never touched and the pocket was so open for him to step up and hit a receiver.

 

 

 

 

So please give me some more excuses on why I should ignore what I see in preseason.

 

 

I wish I could post the video, Reed was open the entire play.  The db was playing 5 yards off and had no chance to stop the throw and it didnt even need to be a good throw, just a decent throw would have done the trick.

Now break down the drop by Aldrick and the short pass to Helu.

 

K Thanks

And Morris runs a pretty ****ty route as well

And Reed is only that open because RG has already decided to pass to Morris and the CB is going after Morris.

The ****ing ball is out of his hand already in the second pic lol. 

[JSSkinz]

Now break down the drop by Aldrick and the short pass to Helu.

 

K Thanks

And Morris runs a pretty ****ty route as well

And Reed is only that open because RG has already decided to pass to Morris and the CB is going after Morris.

The ****ing ball is out of his hand already in the second pic lol. 

 

Aldrick didnt drop the ball and just came down with his hand out of bounds.

 

Here's the breakdown on that play:

 

Robert snaps the ball and immediatly throws a lob/fade to the endzone, its a brainless play where he only needed to put a nice touch on the pass.  There was no need for read or recognition, just hike and pass.

 

Now you said he already threw the ball, here is a pic with the ball firmly in Roberts hand while he stares down Alfred.  You can see the db bails on Reed and starts to go at Alfred because he notices Robert burning a hole in the back of Alfreds jersey with his eyes.  At that point he has to recognize the defender biting on the short throw, fake pump and then hit Reed.

 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

So please give me some more excuses on why I should ignore what I see in preseason.

I wish I could post the video, Reed was open the entire play. The db was playing 5 yards off and had no chance to stop the throw and it didnt even need to be a good throw, just a decent throw would have done the trick.

The first pic you show, Robert already is halfway through his throwing motion going to Morris and Reed is not open or even looking for the ball at that point.

If Morris was the first read and he was open why wouldn't he throw to him? Morris actually should have taken his route wider in the flat and could have had took to 5-7+ yards easy. The ball was thrown behind him because the corner was playing in on Morris.

Now Griffin could have held onto the ball and waited to see if other WRs were going to break open and go against everything that he has been taught. He held the ball too long last season and now we want to get upset that he made a quick decision and hit his first read to a RB in the flat that was open?

What about the pass to Paulsen and the pass to Helu where he clearly goes through his reads before checking down? What about the decision and pass to Robinson that should have been a TD?

This is one play from 4 total pass attempts in the first preseason game and you have no idea what he was told to do or focus on for that play or game. That's why you should for the most part ignore the what you see in preseason games.

[Mahons21]

The pats are in an obvious cover 2 zone, corner route is the right read, period.

[JSSkinz]

The first pic you show, Robert already is halfway through his throwing motion going to Morris and Reed is not open or even looking for the ball at that point.

If Morris was the first read and he was open why wouldn't he throw to him? Morris actually should have taken his route wider in the flat and could have had took to 5-7+ yards easy. The ball was thrown behind him because the corner was playing in on Morris.

Now Griffin could have held onto the ball and waited to see if other WRs were going to break open and go against everything that he has been taught. He held the ball too long last season and now we want to get upset that he made a quick decision and hit his first read to a RB in the flat that was open?

What about the pass to Paulsen and the pass to Helu where he clearly goes through his reads before checking down? What about the decision and pass to Robinson that should have been a TD?

This is one play from 4 total pass attempts in the first preseason game and you have no idea what he was told to do or focus on for that play or game. That's why you should for the most part ignore the what you see in preseason games.

 

Look at that last pic, good QB's draw defenders with their eyes.  Robert did this and you can clearly see how the db is leaving Reed and making a b-line toward Morris.  Based on the last pic I posted why would you throw that ball to Morris when his back is turned and the db is clearly making a play towards him, its a recipe for disaster, the ball could have popped in the air off Morris's hand or back, or it could have been picked.

 

Its just an example and food for thought, I support Robert 100% and I'm anxious to see him get more action on Monday.

[RG3Hunna]

Look at that last pic, good QB's draw defenders with their eyes.  Robert did this and you can clearly see how the db is leaving Reed and making a b-line toward Morris.  Based on the last pic I posted why would you throw that ball to Morris when his back is turned and the db is clearly making a play towards him, its a recipe for disaster, the ball could have popped in the air off Morris's hand or back, or it could have been picked.

 

Its just an example and food for thought, I support Robert 100% and I'm anxious to see him get more action on Monday.

He was running a gimmick offense with Kyle only reading half of the field. GIve him some time the kid is trying to learn how to be a pocket passer.

 

There's gonna be plays he goes through progressions and other plays he doesn't go through his progression properly. It's all about developing good habits be patient.

 

By the way on that play you showed earlier, Alfred Morris ran the route completely wrong he was too shallow with his route and was supposed to bend it wide to the sideline more. With that said the route to Jordan Reed was the better of the options he should have took but he'll get better with time. 

[Bang]

that's all nice and such, but if you want to use that as an example of Cousins being more comfortable in the offense, how about break down Cousins pass into double coverage to Robinson that went dead into the hands of Malcolm Butler, saved only by Robinson knocking it out with his tackle.

Was he comfortable there? I don't have any photo breakdowns of it, but he rolled out and stared straight at Robinson before throwing it to Butler. I'm sure somebody can snap up a video of it,, it's about 6:40 in the first qtr

I see robert's mistake that cost us a possible TD or first and goal, he made the wrong read and probably expected the safety to stay deep, BUT,, given the passing distribution of the first half, i'd say it's just as good a chance that he was supposed to throw it to the back regardless. * see below.

I see Cousins make a mistake from a first and ten at the 40 that almost gives the Pats the ball back one play after a punt.

if you can differentiate comfort with the offense from plays like that, i think maybe you're looking too hard into it.

Cousins did have more TIME to get comfortable, namely he had four full drives as opposed to one.

RG3's fade throw was a nice ball, Robinson should have had it but for a body control mistake. Got to get that foot down.

Since you put up the pictures, i pulled up my recording and since this Jaguars Bears game is exactly that, here's some notes on Cousins play.

Aside from the near pick, a busted play (or a designed run that looked like a busted play) that saw him run for his life to the sidelines for a 2 yard gain, and a penalty by a confused offensive lineman.

Threw it away on 3rd and 12, got a first down due to illegal touching penalty.

Nice throw for the TD.. once again to Robinson who made a nice move and got excellent position. Cousins did stare him down, safety made the move, but ball got there first.

Nice throw out of the end zone after play fake to wide open... wait for it.. Robinson

Robinson was the only WR targeted in th rfirst 20+ minutes of the game, the first four drives, six or seven targets ( i didn't count. Might be as many as 9)

the other players targeted by passes by both RG3 and Cousins are Helu, Morris, Young, Thompson.

1 pass was caught by Paulsen that looked to me like it was meant for Morris.

the first pass to any other player besides a running back or Robinson was to Grant with 9:13 left in the half. another to Grant with 2:50 to go..

And finally the pass to Grant who is open in the end zone .. the ball is behind him and again was on the hands of Butler, who was beaten.

really,, all I can see with any sort of uncertain certaintyis they looked hard at robinson and they want running backs to learn to catch the ball. Given Gruden's offense does throw to backs, i'd say they were being graded, especially considering most of the passes to the backs were quick flares, one read plays that got them isolated to the outside. One went to helu (incomplete) as a check over the middle by Cousins.

I mean, i really don't want to get all Iverson about it. but we talkin' 'bout practice.

~Bang

[Momma There Goes That Man]

I'm just saying, you're worrying an awful lot over one play in the first preseason game when we don't even know what was supposed to happen.

I'm not sweating it that he made a quick decision to an open guy in the flat that would typically pick up 5-7 yards

[darrelgreenie]

The way the film is being discussed/assessed in this thread is all wrong. So many closed minded assumptions that reveal preconceived notions. You don't breakdown a play with the conclusion already in mind.

Also you need to always keep in mind the relationship between the QB and the coverage, especially in zone when the defenders are reacting to the QB.

On the play where Griffin checks down to Morris the Pats are in Cover-2 and the LCB is taking away Reeds corner route. Griffin decides to check down to Morris. On most pass plays the will have options and many of them may appear open. But in this instance Reed only comes open AFTER the LCB comes up to cover Morris in the flat. I am certain Griffin did not get grades down on the decision to throw the check down. Could he have made another decision? Sure. On any given play there are always other possible throws. Griffin could have tried to look off the LCB and throw the corner route. Griffin could have waited on Roberts running the shallow cross. Both meant holding the ball longer and the emphasis from Grudes has been to take the check down and not hold the ball.

Grading Griffin down for his decision to throw the check down imho displays a lack of understanding in how to look at and grade QB play.

[Voice_of_Reason]

This thread is still going?

Yawn. Everything that can be said has been said.

[darrelgreenie]

I don't sit around and play with metrics. This is football. Not geometry. I can watch a game and tell whether or not a player plays well. You were proven wrong and now you're all bitter about it. And I also never said Cousins was on Griffin's level. I never said that so stop putting words in my mouth. I think Cousins does some things better than Griffin and vice versa. I already said GRIFFIN SHOULD BE THE STARTER.

To me it's ridiculous that people are trying to judge Griffin off 4 throws, one way or the other.

Um yeah, new guy I'm not a stat guy. I used to do a series of threads w/ MartinC that was strictly QB breakdown play-by-play. I also charted DBs for the past 2 seasons in the draft thread. So yeah, once again you are wrong in an assumption.

 

Proven wrong huh? Um okay. I posted the stats from Griffin's games that preceded his 'benching'. You claim was play warranted said benching. It doesn't take an in depth play-by-play breakdown to see that Griffin's play did not warrant the benching of a FRANCHISE QB.

...Here's the breakdown on that play:

 Even though I don't agree with your breakdown nor forming conclusions based on few pass attempts, I will always applaud anyone that takes the time to post vid and discuss positional play based on  film.

[GOSKINS_08]

So did Gruden announce how long the starters will play Monday yet?

[Fred Jones]

~Chuckle

 

I didn't read the article and glanced at some of the posts in this thread, but I did Chuckle when I glanced at the title.  On a side note, I am not really replying to your thread Bang, just commenting in general.  Your "Chuckle" is like a lead in.

 

I think we should immediately trade our next three first round draft picks for the first pick in the draft next year and take the best QB availalbe.  And, we should do this every four years until we find just the right QB to win.

 

That way threads like this are guaranteed to be available for me to post in.  I am excited already.

[Paul Cumberland]

can we just get a bang vid before the season starts already?  haha

[darrelgreenie]

RG3's strengths coming out of college were his arm talent (deep ball accuracy especially),  his mobility, and general ability to make a play.

I would also add his passing ability and efficiency.

Part of the current problem is the undefined term of 'pocket passing'. At Baylor Griffin was a deadly passer and where else did that passing occur then in the pocket? So when people claim Griffin wasn't a pocket passer I really have no clue what heck they're talking about. 

 

 

 

It's very odd though that people get so bent out of shape when there's any mention of RG3's weaknesses.  If his weakness is not his pocket passing then I ask  those of you who so ardently support RG3.  What are his weaknesses and is it okay for them to be discussed?

I can't speak for anyone else but I don't get bent out of shape with any mention of Griffin's weaknesses. Heck, I think you would know that I'm at the very least objective about position play. I was critical of Griffin's mechanics at the start of last season when everyone on the forum was telling me he was fine.

What I object to are baseless claims like the current Griffin isn't a good pocket passer claim. That's why I keep the sig I have. The idea that Griffin isn't good from the pocket is a fiction that is unsupported by the stats and history.

Here's my view of Griffin's weaknesses all of which I've stated before: (many of these weaknesses are because of his talent)

-better decision making when he scrambles, too reckless, needs to have better awareness about when/where/how to protect himself

 

-needlessly varies his arm slot at times overhead, 3/4 quarters, side-arm; even though throwing from different arm angles is a good skill when needed

 

- doesn't always step into his throws (he can often get away with it because of arm talent), last year wasn't keeping a consistent base and wasn't keeping his front leg down nor forcefully transfering his weight from his back leg to his front leg which would cause him to miss high

 

-doesn't always maintain himself as passer when he begins to scramble, drops his throwing arm and sometimes even cradles the ball as a RB when he begins to scramble/run

 

-doesn't always keep the ball tight to his chest in a throwing position when he drops back, often drops his left arm away and holds the ball near his waist with just his right arm

 

-didn't trust his protection at times and would look to bail early (can you blame him?)

-didn't trust the playcalling would get the primary receiver open at times (especially off of 2-man route read option play-action) This was a major problem last year when combined with not trusting the pass protection. Griff b/c he didn't trust the playcall would come off his primary receiver too early which would throw off the timing of the play THEN he would get nervous about the pass protection and look to make a play, sometimes plays went like this: dropback--rush through the primary read--look at the secondary reads too early/before they got open, get nervous about Tyler then bail from the pocket and try to make a play

(a) tries to be 'thee' man, goes into hero mode to quickly (this is gonna happen when you put Baylor on the map raise the Heisman trophy and win 7 games in a row to make it to the playoffs and win rookie of the year)

 

-thinks the media is his friend and tries to explain things and in general says more then he needs to

 (a) doesn't know how to give an empty soundbite

 

I think that about covers my list.

[darrelgreenie]

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

The one thing I noticed in the first video is that Griffin, at times, felt pressure up the middle and bailed out backwards. There were also times he stepped up well. But I think he got happy feet at times and bailed a little early.

Overall I think he's very under-rated as a passer in general.

I don't care what system you're running, if you have a 100+ passer rating for a season, finishing only behind Peyton and (I think) Rodgers (could have been Brees), in 2012, that says a lot. You don't just luck into that.

2012 snowballed. It happened. It's over. He'll be fine. I really believe he's going to be better than in 2012.

[LoudMouth12thMan]

My advice to everyone is to read all of Bang's posts in this thread and all will be right with the world again.  Apparently Bang is transitioning from being a funny man to the great and powerful Oz.   Too much sense being made in those posts and not enough funny.      

 

 

 

 

~Giggles

[skinny21]

Gotta say, Paulsen is a solid TE.

[Taylorgang21]

 The sport/game of Football is insane. It's funny how single plays can impact the masses on their thoughts when regards to certain players. What   I mean is this. If Aldrick comes down with that TD catch, and Kirk's under thrown ball in double coverage was not dropped this wouldn't even be a discussion. It's very funny to me how quick things can change on only two plays. If Aldrick makes that TD grab headlines would read the following "Griffin looks sharp in debut" Griffin leads the TD drive in his first action" ect.  Now if Kirk Int "give me" was not dropped, but instead held onto by the DB we would hear fans calling for C-Mck over Kirk. Our fan base is way too fickle and emotional to be able to recover from plays like TD passes, and Int's. Now that the Int's are dropped and removed from peoples memory banks we actually believe KC "Check downs and dump offs" all of which that resembled those of the likes of Jason Campbell, John Beck, were quick released throws and pre snap reads and so forth. Phaaaa!!!  One thing I've noticed is that 2013 has ruined the confidence of both our young GREAT QB's. RGIII is still trying to regain that swagger, and Kirk has gone "John Beck" on us. I figured it out too! It's the freaking poor Offensive Line. We have to fix our O-Line. Our Qb's have no trust in our Oline. We need a freaking O line got damn it!!

[Bacon]

We have a really good starting QB in Washington, guys. Deal with it.

[bedlamVR]

 

- doesn't always step into his throws (he can often get away with it because of arm talent), last year wasn't keeping a consistent base and wasn't keeping his front leg down nor forcefully transfering his weight from his back leg to his front leg which would cause him to miss high

 

-doesn't always maintain himself as passer when he begins to scramble, drops his throwing arm and sometimes even cradles the ball as a RB when he begins to scramble/run

 

-doesn't always keep the ball tight to his chest in a throwing position when he drops back, often drops his left arm away and holds the ball near his waist with just his right arm

 

 

I think that about covers my list.

 

 

I really like when you start talking about technical aspects of the game, because I find it really interesting. I agree with everything in the post I have just quoted (and butchered) but I wanted to specifically ask about these three points.

 

 

 

I rememeber in one of his pre draft promo videos (for want of a better word) he was talking about how he would hold the ball high so he could get the ball out quicker. He also seemed to be in a high (narrow) stance almost bouncing back rather than stepping - I am guessing this might be better to shift for a runner but I understand . But that was based on the pre NFL . Now the narrow stance I understand needs to change because it is a less consistant base (typically), but I thought the mentality of holding the ball high and tight was sound.. personal preference really...

 

The question I had were the deficiencies in Roberts stance, drop backs and consistancy more or less pronouced last year or have they always been about the same.

 

  One thing I thought the Shanahans handled badly in 2013 offseason was trying to change fundemental physical things in Roberts game specifically his base and how and where he held the ball and his stance and it was too much to ask someone comming off such a serious injury . IMO if they wanted to make changes they should have treaded them in as Robert got more comfortable with his post injury self... however if things didn't really change in his fundementals then I may well have been off on that...

[Koolblue13]

I think we're in pretty good shape at TE. If Paul could just catch that giant football, with those tiny, tiny hands, he could push into the second TE spot.

 

That said, this thread is preposterous. Of course RGIII is the better QB and our starter, future.

 

This coming from someone who thinks KC1 is a starter in this league.

 

Remember when Jay Schraider (sp) was our golden child and got benched for some unknown back up, in Doug Williams? I'm half in jest, but if RGIII gets injured and KC1 lights it up, it'll be pretty similar.

[Alexa]

Well Jay S. was a complete jackass who really didn't get along with a lot of players, where Williams was well liked by everyone.  I don't think that's the case here. Both guys seem to be liked by everyone.

[skinny21]

I really like when you start talking about technical aspects of the game, because I find it really interesting. I agree with everything in the post I have just quoted (and butchered) but I wanted to specifically ask about these three points.

I rememeber in one of his pre draft promo videos (for want of a better word) he was talking about how he would hold the ball high so he could get the ball out quicker. He also seemed to be in a high (narrow) stance almost bouncing back rather than stepping - I am guessing this might be better to shift for a runner but I understand . But that was based on the pre NFL . Now the narrow stance I understand needs to change because it is a less consistant base (typically), but I thought the mentality of holding the ball high and tight was sound.. personal preference really...

The question I had were the deficiencies in Roberts stance, drop backs and consistancy more or less pronouced last year or have they always been about the same.

One thing I thought the Shanahans handled badly in 2013 offseason was trying to change fundemental physical things in Roberts game specifically his base and how and where he held the ball and his stance and it was too much to ask someone comming off such a serious injury . IMO if they wanted to make changes they should have treaded them in as Robert got more comfortable with his post injury self... however if things didn't really change in his fundementals then I may well have been off on that...

Here's an interesting read on Griffin's mechanics from last year. Also talks about his work when reuniting with QB guru Terry Shea this offseason. Shea also apparently came out to AZ when Griffin hosted the wrs. Also discovered that Shea comes from the Walsh tree.

http://httr24-7.com/blog/we-can-re-build-him-fixing-robert-griffin-iiis-throwing-mechanics/

And another one

http://www.thewarpath.net/nfl-draft-central/47235-q-and-a-with-terry-shea.html