Is Griffin A Good Enough Pocket Passer?

[The Trashman]

This is not to dispute whether RGIII has pocket passing abilities or whether he is a good enough Read Option QB.  This is just a discussion that can hopefully shed knowledge on his ability to stay in the pocket and pass effectively, if his ability to run the option was stymied.

 

Sure, RGIII has been in situations where he had to stay in the pocket and pass and he had done well when asked to do so BUT what if he didn't have the ability to or the ability to run the option was mitigated?

 

This may seem like a trivial or redundant question but bear in mind we are playing Green Bay this coming week and their game plan against Kaeperkick relagated him to just play in the pocket and not get comfortable doing the Read.  The 49s were fortunate enough that Kaepernick was able to perform better than anticipated as a pocket passer and they won the game.

 

Does RGIII stand the same chance as Kap? Is he as good as or better pocket passer than Kaeperkick or Russell Wilson? These are the so-called Read Option QBs but the knock on RGIII is even though he is a superior Read Option QB he currently may not be as comfortable or effective as a pure pocket passer.

 

This is not a knock on RGIII but hopefully constructive criticism that may led to a positive discussion on his strengths and/or perceived limitations.

 

Thoughts?

[rdskn4eva]

Fact.  RG3 completed 65% pf his passes in the second half agaisnt a heavy blitzing Eagles defense.

 

I think he is fine as a pocket passer.  He's still learing to read NFL defenses but he will be fine.

[DC9]

He showed me something last night.  I enjoyed the hell out of watching him back there in 5 wide (how about that Reed kid, btw?) and he made a lot of the right throws from where I was sitting.

 

He gets that timing and confidence down throughout the game.  But he showed me something last night.

 

A lot of us wanted to see him in 5 wide last year but we never needed it with Morris playing so well.  I say let the kid go.  He looked fantastic once in rhythm.

 

Nice OP.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

He needs to improve his pocket instincts. (Which should come with experience.). At present, he 'feels' little around him and is a sitting duck behind this line for some brutal hits. 

 

This worries me greatly for Sunday. Green Bay sent Matthews constantly against the '9ers. We don't have anything like the line San Francisco has. Is this is their MO to deal with this type of scheme he could well have a lot more than the one sack he got last weekend,

 

Hail. 

[SJValleySkinz]

The worst you can say right now is who the heck knows last year was the first season in his life he came anywhere near a pocket.

[BobGriffin]

If the packers vacate the middle of the field to sell out and stop the run like they did against Kaep (kinda of like what philly did) and if we get 2nd half RG3 we should not have problems moving the ball via pocket passes.

[WinSkinsWin83]

Um lets see. How much time Kap had to make a throw? There was no one around him while making his throws. Then when he did throw it. His Wrs made plays for him. Boldin was a beast. Do have a WR that is going to play with that will and determination and focus?

[The Trashman]

So the consensus is that RG3 is a good enough and developing pocket passer. As it pertains to Kaepernick's effectiveness against the Packers' game plan, even though they locked down the Read Option lanes, Kaep was able to use TIME and his OL was good enough to provide him opportunities to pick apart the secondary.

 

Let's hope our OL protects RG3 better than they did against Philly.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

If he's back to game speed by Sunday (which I doubt), I think he's good enough to win games.

 

But he does have room to improve, Gruden did a good analysis of the pick he threw against Dallas last Thanksgiving. I immediately blamed his lineman for getting pushed back into him but Gruden showed that he had plenty of space to right to step and throw cleanly.

 

He just missed it. As he gets back to game speed in the next few weeks, I expect him to get even better

[TK]

Griff is fine in the pocket. That is, provided the pocket is there. This OL is built to move & roll the QB out, not stand there & hold a pocket for 5-7 step drop backs.

[MariusVT]

All we need is to hit the bye at 2-2 and things will be fine.  I was really impressed with the way he played once things started clicking a in the 2nd half, he just needs to stick to good mechanics and go for it.

[bradboyd80]

I would say yes also. He definitely has the skill to be a great pocket passer. I can see the same results if GB sells out to stop the run like they did against SF. He might not have as much time as Kaep did, but he is skilled enough to exploit them if they use that approach.

[rdskn4eva]

So the consensus is that RG3 is a good enough and developing pocket passer. As it pertains to Kaepernick's effectiveness against the Packers' game plan, even though they locked down the Read Option lanes, Kaep was able to use TIME and his OL was good enough to provide him opportunities to pick apart the secondary.

 

Let's hope our OL protects RG3 better than they did against Philly.

SF has the best oline in the NFL.  They can run traditional drop backs, power runs AND read option.  We have a decent oline that is good at running and read option but Pass Pro is a work in progress.  We have a great LT and a upper echelon center but the guards and RT are average at best.

[Shanahan's Tan]

Even last year, RG3 had mechanical flaws.  He is good enough to overcome them but he seems more comfortable on the move.  Perhaps it allows him to buy more time and move defenders and get receivers open.  But I think with time he can become a better straight dropback QB.

[The Trashman]

Griff is fine in the pocket. That is, provided the pocket is there. This OL is built to move & roll the QB out, not stand there & hold a pocket for 5-7 step drop backs.

And therein lies the problem. The OL.

 

Not only are they limited in design they are also the weak link in our armor. That is the thinest unit on our team and I pray we don't start losing folks to serrious injuries because our backups are not worth writing home about.

 

Trust me the 49s know all of this and will be doing their best to lock down the Read Option lanes AND will be sending Clay Matthews to RG3 on just about every down.

 

And this brings us to another issue, dealing with another 3-4 defense. It is becoming more apparent that ESTABLISHED 3-4 defenses are the best remedy against the Read Option system. Happened to us against Pittsburgh and Carolina last year and we need to take note of this against Green Bay this coming week.

[PMI]

This is not to dispute whether RGIII has pocket passing abilities or whether he is a good enough Read Option QB.  This is just a discussion that can hopefully shed knowledge on his ability to stay in the pocket and pass effectively, if his ability to run the option was stymied.

 

Sure, RGIII has been in situations where he had to stay in the pocket and pass and he had done well when asked to do so BUT what if he didn't have the ability to or the ability to run the option was mitigated?

 

This may seem like a trivial or redundant question but bear in mind we are playing Green Bay this coming week and their game plan against Kaeperkick relagated him to just play in the pocket and not get comfortable doing the Read.  The 49s were fortunate enough that Kaepernick was able to perform better than anticipated as a pocket passer and they won the game.

 

Does RGIII stand the same chance as Kap? Is he as good as or better pocket passer than Kaeperkick or Russell Wilson? These are the so-called Read Option QBs but the knock on RGIII is even though he is a superior Read Option QB he currently may not be as comfortable or effective as a pure pocket passer.

 

This is not a knock on RGIII but hopefully constructive criticism that may led to a positive discussion on his strengths and/or perceived limitations.

 

Thoughts?

 

RG3 is better than Kaepernick, and much better than Wilson.  He looked bad for three quarters but I think it was mostly due to rust and a lot of pressure due to a bad OL performance.  Robert is the least of my worries right now.

[ZRagone]

This is not to dispute whether RGIII has pocket passing abilities or whether he is a good enough Read Option QB.  This is just a discussion that can hopefully shed knowledge on his ability to stay in the pocket and pass effectively, if his ability to run the option was stymied.

 

Sure, RGIII has been in situations where he had to stay in the pocket and pass and he had done well when asked to do so BUT what if he didn't have the ability to or the ability to run the option was mitigated?

There's a GIANT issue here. It assumes that everything to do with a "pocket passer" has to do with the QB. The QUALITY of ones offensive line along with the STYLE of ones offensive line plays into this as well in large ways.

You specifically mention two QBs: Colin Kaepernick and Russell Wilson

Let's look at Kaep first. The 49ers had two offensive lineman that were both pro bowler starters and First or Second Team ALL PRO. They run a Man/Power running scheme emphasizing large, strong lineman. Their line averages 317.4 lbs.

Looking at Wilson, you have two offensive lineman that were starting pro bowlers and one who was first team all pro. Like us they run a Zone Blocking Scheme, but generally are go with slightly larger linemen 309.2.

Looking at our line, we had one guy who was a pro-bowl alternate. We had no All Pro's on our line. Similar to Seattle we run a ZBS that aims at more agile, mobile lineman coming in even lighter than them on average at 304.4 lbs.

Now, here's something interesting to note in terms of the three players in question as well...

In 2012 San Francisco's line gave up 44 sacks and 68 total QB hits. Here's where it gets interesting. In 2011, prior to Kaepernick getting in there, they gave up...44 sacks and 82 QB hits. So the same amount of sacks and a few more QB hits. Read Option, mobile QB, etc...their O-Line pretty much performs in a pretty similar way whether the QB is attempting to be "mobile" or a "pocket passer".

Seattle and Washington are a different story. In 2011 Seattle gave up 114 QB hits (tied for worst in the league) and Washington gave up 108 (second worst in the league). While they both gave up 33 sacks in 2012, Seattle allowed for 50 in 2011 and the Skins allowed for 41.

I can't find game by game stats for offensive lines, but if you'll recall by memory that Russell Wilson didn't explode massively onto the scene until the final half of the season. You'll also note that largely coincided at the point where they started having him do more read option and he was running with the ball far more.

I don't think it's reasonable at this point to say that if Russell Wilson would be forced to be a pocket passer that he'd any better at it than RG3 would be at this moment. Similarly, I don't think you can really make a determination that Kaepernick, behind an offensive line that showed itself to at least be fair in that style of offensive the year before, is somehow a better pocket passer than RG3 would be JUST based on what we see with their respective teams.

WHEN RG3 has actually gotten decent protection he's looked perfectly capable of being a good pocket passer, still showing good accuracy and touch as well as decision making. The problem has been, and will continue to be, that our offensive line is not built to be an elite, or even above average, drop back passing offensive line. We do not have the talent nor skill level on that line to do that right now.

Do I think if Robert Griffin had to run the same offense as John Beck did that Griffin would be better than Beck? Sure thing. But I don't think he'd be anywhere NEAR as good as he was last year. Not simply because of his skill level, but because it's not a scheme that fits the TALENT surrounding us.

I will say this....if you gave Kaepernick, Wilson, and Griffin all the exact same offensive line, specifically took away their ability to scramble any better than Tom Brady can, and told them to play a game I think there's a VERY reasonable case to say that Griffin could quite possibly be the best of the three of them in terms of accuracy and decision making.

The reality is though that all three of those guys can move around and even when they're being somewhat more "pocket passers", as Kaepernick was Sunday, defenses are still respecting their legs and that still opens things up in the passing game that wouldn't be there if they absolutely postiviely couldn't run. So trying to judge Kaepernick as a pocket passer based off something like Sunday and going "Well he passed a lot and he didn't run much and he did well so he must be a good pocket passer" is just completely over simplifying the situation.

[Bacon]

To be honest, I really think the "speed of the game" was a huge problem for Robert. His timing on crossing routes was just awful in spots, and that's nothing like him. Thankfully, he was able to get his rhythm back and made some spectacular throws in the clutch. My wife was watching with me and we both clapped loudly during that second TD. The touch RG3 put on that pass completely eliminated any trepidation I may have about him as a pocket passer coming off of injury. He can still do it.

[big#44]

The fact that this post came AFTER last nights game is mind boggling. 

[The Trashman]

The fact that this post came AFTER last nights game is mind boggling. 

Not really. This post came after a heated debate with a bunch of non-Skins fans who argued which of the 3 QBs mentioned are best suited currently for pocket passing.

 

My observation is as gifted as Kaepernick is, he still has trouble with the touch pass. He has a cannon of an arm but I can see his flaws. Wilson is solid all round but RGIII seems to have the best overall skill package.

[PokerPacker]

Um lets see. How much time Kap had to make a throw? There was no one around him while making his throws. Then when he did throw it. His Wrs made plays for him. Boldin was a beast. Do have a WR that is going to play with that will and determination and focus?

I think you touched on a better question here. It didn't seem, to me, that it was Kaep that beat the Packers (not that he didn't do his job) as much as it was Boldin coming into the slot. We didn't have our nickel CB in Hayward to cover the slot, nor our top safety in Burnett to support up top, and as a result there was a mismatch at the slot position. We had to choose between a 5th round rookie who's got a nose for the ball, but not really a cover corner at this point, a CB who showed promise last year, but coming off injury was really bad in preseason, and a career special-teamer in hopes to cover him. It was too much to ask of Hyde at this juncture, too soon for House, and Bush will never be that guy. So the question is, who do you have that will we can't cover from the slot, and will Morgan Burnett be back in time to provide help over the top?

[NoCalMike]

Yeah lets be honest, Kap had all day to throw and wasn't exactly "accurate" with a lot of his throws.  He managed to get them in the general area of the WR, but half of the passes Boldin caught he would have been justified dropping them because they were either over his head, behind him, or way out in front of him, but he was in beast mode on Sunday. How many times was he leaping, diving, tipping passes back into his hands.  Now, this was just Week 1 so I don't want to be overly critical of Kaepenick right now either. I am just pointing this out because I knew this comparison was going to eventually come up.

 

Look, there is way too much conjecture being based on Week 1 of the season.  Everyone seems to be ignoring all of 2012 and basing everything off 1 game in 2013, actually no one HALF of the game in 2013.

 

If the Redskins had WRs that laid out for passes and were better at catching the "close but not exactly in the numbers" passes, RGIII who is already considered an accurate passer, would be even more accurate.  Pierre Garcon was pretty great in 2012 at catching these sort of passes, he often bailed out RGIII on throws he had to make due to pressure getting to him quickly.  That was called trusting your playmakers to make plays.

 

I refuse to be over-critical of a QB and/or compare him to two healthy QBs that play behind much better O-lines.  It is just silly.

 

Give RGIII the 49ers O-line and we will see how he looks.

[RandyHolt]

If we had a pocket I think the OP would see that they did not have to pursue creation of this thread. 

 

Our OL has been and remains very shaky in pass pro. As soon as I see its going to be a long day, I grow concerned when Kyle does not change up the play calling. Its dangerous. 

 

I remember Cousins in the first few series versus Cleveland sitting in the pocket under heavy pressure. By the end the quarter, he rolled and booted him, and he did great.   I exhaled. 

 

RGIII took a lot of shots yesterday standing in the pocket.   It may become imperative to spread out more, roll him out, and be more dynamic in our formations. You worry about him not sliding, I worry about repeated plays calling for him standing in our "pocket".

 

Expect more blitzing until Kyle figures out how to make them pay.  And to learn the OL is not good in pass pro; to not use them to their weaknesses. Its mind boggling we run the OL all over the place on run plays, but never on passing plays where he could roll out the pocket. 

[Geoff_K]

Fact.  RG3 completed 65% pf his passes in the second half agaisnt a heavy blitzing Eagles defense.

 

I think he is fine as a pocket passer.  He's still learing to read NFL defenses but he will be fine.

when the eagles dialed it back and looked to be in prevent mode ?  trash stats

[paloosa]

I believe that RGIII is a good pocket passer. Last night was the rust of not playing and trying to get the bugs in his play worked out. Unfortunately he made too many mistakes early. The first INT was a bad read on his part. The second INT was just a great diving catch by the CB. In the second half he looked like his usual self. He started to trust himself again and was planting his foot to throw the ball instead of throwing flat footed. Kapernick and Wilson aren't any better. When you win and everything goes well then you will look good. Everyone has a bad game, even Peyton Manning and Tom Brady have bad days.