PeterMP Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I don't honestly think either one is much better than the other for it really to be an argument. Wall has more assists than Irving, but he also lead the league in turn overs. The assist/TO ratio is 2.28 to 2.44 in favor of Wall. Wall is a better play maker, but not to the level that just looking at assist would suggest. Irving is a better shooter. I'd say that Wall is a slightly better defender, but neither of them are worth making a big deal for. I would trade Irving for Love before I traded Wiggins. I'd trade Irving for Love and throw in something else. I'd rather have the ball in Lebron's hand than Irving and Irving likes to have the ball in his hand. I think Wiggins' (likely) high impact perimeter and transition D has more value when coupled with Lebron than Irving does. I'd deal with the position issue where Lebron realistically has a lot of flexibility as to what position he plays (and realistically so does Wiggins I suspect). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I'd likely be more willing to trade Irving for Love before I do Wiggins. I think in the modern NBA positions, especially with somebody like Lebron are over rated. Irving is primarily a ball handling play maker and so is Lebron. I'd rather have somebody that I think can be an elite perimeter defender to pair Lebron with than a ball handling player maker. Irving is a quality off ball player too. He's a knockdown shooter, that makes him a much better fit offensively with LeBron. Plus a secondary ball handler of Irving's caliber would be really useful offensively. Perimeter stopper is a pretty well defined role and you can find these kinds of specialists for not too much money. But an offensive player like Kyrie is special and hard/expensive to replace. Also, don't discount what Kyrie can do for LeBron's offense in turn. LeBron is not going to be able to sustain the kind of offensive workload he had in Miami the last two and a half seasons for the next four to five seasons, which about covers the rest of his prime. Having the chance to play with a young All Star PG like Irving will give LeBron the chance to play off the ball and get easier scoring opportunities. He'll get to run the wing on fast breaks and be the roll man on pick and rolls and he'll get to occasionally set his feet and catch and shoot open threes and he'll get more single teams where he can do those blow by perimeter drives against late rotations after Irving collapses the D. And if LeBron gets to play off the ball significantly more, then he'll get to post up more and utilize that part of his arsenal Having two ball handlers of Kyrie and LeBron's caliber is a really really useful set of weapons for their new coach. They're going to have a ton of go to sources of scoring for their half court offense. I think I'd rather have that and go out and sign a 3 and D player down the road. Also, I'd keep in mind that 19 year old rookies like Wiggins very rarely defend well early in their careers. Especially if they've got a fairly substantial offensive role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Irving is a quality off ball player too. He's a knockdown shooter, that makes him a much better fit offensively with LeBron. Plus a secondary ball handler of Irving's caliber would be really useful offensively. Perimeter stopper is a pretty well defined role and you can find these kinds of specialists for not too much money. But an offensive player like Kyrie is special and hard/expensive to replace. I can find off the ball shooters even than I can find good defensive perimeter players. People like Ray Allen and Miller are still FAs. Who is the top perimeter defender FA? And I have an elite shooter at PF (with Love), which diminishes my need for it at other positions. The other thing that is that offensive and defensive work load balance out. If I expect less out of Lebron on the defensive side, then he can do less on the offensive side, and I expect his defense to slip before his offense. How fast (and even if) Wiggins can become a good defender I think is a realistic question, but back to my original point, that's where the Cavs have to have done their work in terms of scouting Wiggins as a person and player. But based on what I know, I'd be more willing to ship Irvings plus something than what I've heard the T-wolves are interested in terms of a Wiggins trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 MP, Wiggins is a pretty good defender now. How that translates...I have no idea. I really think the problem is that Kyrie is not equal with a healthy Rose. I get the feeling that he may have been offered. The Cavs would be putting themselves in a win now situation. I don't think they need to, I think they can wait a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I don't honestly think either one is much better than the other for it really to be an argument. Wall has more assists than Irving, but he also lead the league in turn overs. The assist/TO ratio is 2.28 to 2.44 in favor of Wall. Wall is a better play maker, but not to the level that just looking at assist would suggest. Irving is a better shooter. I'd say that Wall is a slightly better defender, but neither of them are worth making a big deal for. Wall is asked to have the ball in his hands more than any other player in the league. If you have the ball that long, you are going to have some turnovers. Steve Nash is one of the greatest point guards ever, led the league in turnovers twice. Magic led the league in turnovers in '91. In top 10 all-time, Stockton, Kidd, Isiah, Kobe, Magic is #11. You handle the ball that much, it happens. One of Wall's things to work is slowing the game down when need be. And the series vs. Chicago showed he is improving. Everyone thought we'd lose because the Bulls half court D would stifle our offense. Not the case. Again, Wall created 109 corner 3s this past season, 20 more than the next best player. And for some reassurance that it was Wall not the other way around. Ariza's 3FG% dropped from 42% to 31% when Wall was out of the lineup the year he only played 49 games. Wall is a much more gifted floor general than Kyrie and to say their defense is close is just untrue. When Irving plays, the Cavaliers allow 8.4 more points per 100 possessions than when he sits; when Wall plays, the Wizards allow 2.5 fewer. The only decided advantage Kyrie has as of June 21, 2014 is mid-range shooting. He is a much better mid-range jump shooter than Wall. But again, shooting is the easiest thing to improve on. Much easier than defense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Wall is asked to have the ball in his hands more than any other player in the league. If you have the ball that long, you are going to have some turnovers. Steve Nash is one of the greatest point guards ever, led the league in turnovers twice. Magic led the league in turnovers in '91. In top 10 all-time, Stockton, Kidd, Isiah, Kobe, Magic is #11. You handle the ball that much, it happens.Yes, and if you have the ball in your hand that much, you are going to make some assists. That's the reason you look at the ratio. And if you look, at the ratios, you'd see the difference between those guys and Wall. For example, in both years that Nash lead the league in TOs, he had almost 900 assists and had an assist/TO of over 3 (compared to 2.44 for Wall). But I generally agree, Wall is a better floor general than Irving. The difference just isn't as large as you get by looking only at assist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Yes, and if you have the ball in your hand that much, you are going to make some assists. That's the reason you look at the ratio. And if you look, at the ratios, you'd see the difference between those guys and Wall. For example, in both years that Nash lead the league in TOs, he had almost 900 assists and had an assist/TO of over 3 (compared to 2.44 for Wall). But I generally agree, Wall is a better floor general than Irving. The difference just isn't as large as you get by looking only at assist. I don't think as of now, the gap between them offensively is that big. But the gap defensively is sizable. Very sizable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I don't understand why you're all arguing about Irving vs. Wall. Boston has three guys better than both of em! Smart, Bradley and Rondo! They're going to run a three point guard system. Fear it. FEAR IT! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkeyBoy Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/avg48AssistsKyrie is 29th in assists per 48. One slot ahead of Kemba Walker.Bubble's love just keeps on making more and more sense. Edited July 22, 2014 by EvilMonkeyBoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) Here's a statline that I view as very realistic for Boston next year with their 3 PG system: Rondo: 45 assists, 2 points Bradley: 47 points, 1 assist Smart: 7 points, 3 assists, 2 harassing fans shoved Write it down. Edited July 22, 2014 by KDawg 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveakl Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Here's a statline that I view as very realistic for Boston next year with their 3 PG system: Rondo: 45 assists, 2 points Bradley: 47 points, 1 assist Smart: 7 points, 3 assists, 2 harassing fans shoved Write it down. What about Evan Turner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 What about Evan Turner? 3 fistfights with teammates? deadspin had an article today about there being nothing less disgusting in sports than the thought of Turner and Boston teamed up. Thank God the Wiz didn't take him over Wall. WJFK was pushing that Wall or Turner "debate" hard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 LeBron in China now Cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 3 fistfights with teammates? deadspin had an article today about there being nothing less disgusting in sports than the thought of Turner and Boston teamed up. Thank God the Wiz didn't take him over Wall. WJFK was pushing that Wall or Turner "debate" hard article is pretty funny.http://deadspin.com/boston-celtics-sign-evan-turner-because-not-enough-peo-1608610277 also has a video of bubble screens favorite player knocking Turners hopes and dreams away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybrant Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 A friend posted this on Facebook. Apparently it's an excerpt from Shaq's book about Rajon Rondo. Pretty interesting. "In early March some of the guys went to the Museum of Fine Arts for a fund-raiser and got to hang with President Barack Obama. Everyone was a little bit in awe. The president turns to Ray, points at Rondo, and says, “Hey Ray, why don’t you teach this kid how to shoot?” Everyone starts laughing, and Ray says, “Nah, that’s why he’s got to give the ball to me. I’ll take care of the shooting.”KG told me he saw the look on Rondo’s face and the kid was devastated, embarrassed. Dissed by the president, even though I’m sure Obama didn’t mean any harm. Rondo smiled and went along with all of it, but KG told me he could see it in his eyes. It bothered Rondo. It killed him.The next day Rondo shot the ball horribly. He stopped taking shots after that. He’s so sensitive. I think it was a real jolt to hear the outside perception of a basketball fan who happens to be the president of the United States. It messed with his mind. I’m sure of it."-Shaq Uncut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Damnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubble Screen Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Rondo should have replied: "really? you of all people, are going to critique someone else's job performance?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Yeah, damn. That was cold Obama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 That's my point! Before last year, NO ONE felt Wall was better. No, before Wall became a more confident shooter, forcing defenders to defend him honestly, SOME people thought Irving was better. You don't watch the games if you don't know this. When Wall started forcing teams to deal with his outside shooting, it opened the floor up and let his superior ballhandling, passing, and speed allow this offense to take off. Previously, defenders would stand so far off Wall to negate his ability to drive past them at will. This hindered his game, and our half-court offense. When Wall started developing his jumpshot, which everyone should expect he's working on and improving even more this off-season, it changed everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I just can't take Bubble Screen seriously. When talking about Charlotte vs Washington for the past few months, he keeps saying the Bobcats beat the Wizards 2 out of 3. Seriously? Any serious NBA fan first of all knows that division rivals play each other 4 times a year. Second, he doesn't even realize the Bobcats won 3 of 4. Seen him say it many times in here. Here are the results: Jan 7- Wizards 97-93 Mar 12- Bobcats 98-85 Mar 31- Bobcats 100-94 Apr 9- Bobcats 94-88 (OT) I've never seen one person in all of my life so desperate to prove himself to a bunch of strangers on a message board. BS, you gotta stop trying so damn hard. It's OK to be wrong once in a while. It's called bring human. You told me to chill in the other thread, but I think you should take some of your own advice. The internets aren't that serious bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeWolf990 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 3 fistfights with teammates? deadspin had an article today about there being nothing less disgusting in sports than the thought of Turner and Boston teamed up. Thank God the Wiz didn't take him over Wall. WJFK was pushing that Wall or Turner "debate" hard they were the only ones. There was no debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubble Screen Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) I just can't take Bubble Screen seriously. When talking about Charlotte vs Washington for the past few months, he keeps saying the Bobcats beat the Wizards 2 out of 3. Seriously? Any serious NBA fan first of all knows that division rivals play each other 4 times a year. Second, he doesn't even realize the Bobcats won 3 of 4. Seen him say it many times in here. Here are the results: Jan 7- Wizards 97-93 Mar 12- Bobcats 98-85 Mar 31- Bobcats 100-94 Apr 9- Bobcats 94-88 (OT) I've never seen one person in all of my life so desperate to prove himself to a bunch of strangers on a message board. BS, you gotta stop trying so damn hard. It's OK to be wrong once in a while. It's called bring human. You told me to chill in the other thread, but I think you should take some of your own advice. The internets aren't that serious bro. I was going off of espn's stats when I first posted that, months ago. Believe it or not, they only had 3 box scores listed. And I was assuming they were correct, forgetting they played 4 times. So how about you run along and stop making these same stupid responses in every thread.Think about it. Don't you think if I had known (didn't trust espn stats) we had beaten the Wiz 3 out of 4, and not 2 of 3, that I would have posted it? C'mon. Edited July 22, 2014 by Bubble Screen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 At what point do we just start a Wizards-Hornetcats thread to isolate this madness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 At what point do we just start a Wizards-Hornetcats thread to isolate this madness? Exactly! This thread is supposed to be about Michael Jordan 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubble Screen Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Exactly! This thread is supposed to be about Michael Jordanlol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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