RT: At least 19 shot during Mother's Day Parade

[autoidiodyssey]

The problem with including suicides in the numbers is that you assume that if those people did not have access to guns they would not have killed themselves in other ways. The US and the UK have similar suicide rates. Japan's rate is nearly double the US. Guns are virtually unavailable in those countries yet they still find way to kill themselves in equal or greater numbers than the US.

Expanded background checks might catch some people who have history of mental issues and want to purchase guns to kill themselves. But you can't say they wouldn't leave the gun store, after being declined, and walk in front of a bus. None of the other proposed gun control would impact that stat. All of the focus for gun control is on preventing crime, stopping murder, claims of the police being out gunned, that sort of stuff. This thread is not about a suicide it is about attempted murder. The 30,000 number is used in that context when the number of murders is actually around 8500.

I think that using the 30,000 number to discuss the types of gun control being proposed, assault weapon bans, magazine limits, that sort of thing, is dishonest. None of that type of gun control will reduce the number of gun related suicides or accidents. Has anyone ever heard the 30,000 number used with the qualifier that less than a third of that number is actual murders? Just look at the way it has been used in this thread. Now if you want to propose and support an all out magical ridding of the country of all guns, 100% ban with confiscation, then using the 30,000 number would be appropriate. As long as guns are available there will be suicides and accidents.

[Destino]

Or reported stolen after they were illegally sold by someone that bought them legally

What?

[Prosperity]

What?

Just because someone uses a "stolen" gun in a crime doesn't mean they actually stole a gun or that it was ever actually stolen.

If I wanted to make some money by selling some guns, I'd sell them in the black market and then report them to be stolen.

[Destino]

The problem with including suicides

... Is that its intellectually dishonest. As is much of the gun control debate from both sides.

---------- Post added May-12th-2013 at 09:59 PM ----------

Just because someone uses a "stolen" gun in a crime doesn't mean they actually stole a gun or that it was ever actually stolen.

If I wanted to make some money by selling some guns, I'd sell them in the black market and then report them to be stolen.

I'm failing to see the logic of selling a criminal a gun and then sending the police after the now armed criminal. You could just legally sell the gun and likely get as much if not more for it. I could be wrong though, I don't know the rates going on the black market.

[PeterMP]

Possibly, I don't know the numbers. I think this may have more to do with mental health than anything. Pretty much all the mass shooters of the past few years (VT, Aurora, Sandy Hook...) had documented mental problems.

Depends on how your run the numbers.

The FBI calls mass shootings 4 or more being shot. But that includes robberies that have gone bad. Those numbers are essentially flat.

Somebody at Mother Jones has broken out what most people would call mass shootings , and those numbers aren't flat , but even with that I'm a little dubious because we are coming off a real high year.

[autoidiodyssey]

... Is that its intellectually dishonest. As is much of the gun control debate from both sides.

The same could be said of most politically charged debates.

[Destino]

The same could be said of most politically charged debates.

True. Politics is about extreme positions, not honesty or practical solutions.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

can we get a mod in here???

My Lord, did anyone even read the OP?

[twa]

If I wanted to make some money by selling some guns, I'd sell them in the black market and then report them to be stolen.

isn't that more likely the more guns are restricted?

[nonniey]

Senseless. It is almost becoming normal. Pretty soon someone will come in and say guns aren't a problem in America.

Pretty soon someone will come in and say it was obviously right wing extremists.

[RansomthePasserby]

The problem with including suicides in the numbers is that you assume that if those people did not have access to guns they would not have killed themselves in other ways. The US and the UK have similar suicide rates. Japan's rate is nearly double the US. Guns are virtually unavailable in those countries yet they still find way to kill themselves in equal or greater numbers than the US.

True. When comparing suicide rates, the US is in the bottom half of OECD countries.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/suiciderate.html

---------- Post added May-12th-2013 at 11:40 PM ----------

Somebody at Mother Jones has broken out what most people would call mass shootings , and those numbers aren't flat , but even with that I'm a little dubious because we are coming off a real high year.

Yeah, there were 7 last year, 3 in 2011, 1 in 2010, 4 in 2009, and it goes between 1 and 4 about every year back through to 1982. Except 99, the year Columbine happened, had 5.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map?page=2

[Wrong Direction]

It's disappointing to me that we virtually ignore the roles of sexual promiscuity, marriage, parenting and failing public schools when talking about gun violence. I grew up around a lot of guns, but there wasn't rampant violence. If people spent their political efforts on the root cause, the debate would be much different.

On the other had, while I think the focus on magazine clips and guns that look scary is silly, more requirements to re-register your guns and to re-register guns sold in the secondary market would seem to be reasonable ways to actually slow down the rush of guns toward criminals, particularly from middle men who are probably a big part of the gun trafficking problem.

A smarter discussion is needed.

[MartinC]

The problem with including suicides in the numbers is that you assume that if those people did not have access to guns they would not have killed themselves in other ways. The US and the UK have similar suicide rates. Japan's rate is nearly double the US. Guns are virtually unavailable in those countries yet they still find way to kill themselves in equal or greater numbers than the US.

Your right about suicide rates, but what about homicide rates? I posted most of whats below in the thread on the 5 year old shooting his 2 year old sister dead. It was the last post in the thread - still think its relevant here.

My contention is that the scale of ownership, interest and culture around guns in the US is a problem.

I travel to and stay in the US a lot and obviously am from and live in the UK and I have been to a lot of the US not just the normal tourist or business destinations. I would contend that there are far more similarities between the UK and US than differences though I do accept the UK is more monolithic than the US. We have similar political systems and values, similar education systems and attainment, are exposed to almost identical cultural influences through TV, music and video games etc etc. The main differences in our atitudes in my experience is atitudes to guns and God - the US is a much more religious nation than the UK.

I would argue that your gun culture and the proliferation of guns in private ownership (legal or illegal) is a HUGE problem. The strict gun laws in the UK were brought in after Dunblane in large part in response to that event but shootings still happen as at Cumbria. However in 2011 (last full year stats I could find quoted) there were 8775 murders (homicides) by firearm in the US - so no suicides or accidental deaths in that number. in the UK in 2011 there were 58 murders by firearm. If you adjust for population difference that 58 adjusts to 290.

8,775 murders in the US by firearm compared to 290 in the UK.

I think its worth noting that despite our gun laws which make it almost impossible for a normal citizen to own a firearm legally illegal guns are of course available. These are used almost exclusively by criminals (almost by definition) - and mainly by criminals to shoot other criminals. Armed robbery of domestic/private property is very very rare in the UK, armed robbery tends to happen against commercial targets like Banks or security vans and is also quite rare (our police are normally unarmed as well - we have special armed response teams though). Something to think about in the context of the guns for self defence arguments.

On the correlation between the scale of gun ownership and murder rate see the study below.

http://www.psmag.com/culture/the-correlation-between-gun-ownership-and-homicide-rate-55467/

You have a problem in the US with the scale of ownership of guns and the resultant cost in human life. IMO the culture around gun ownership and use is helping perpetuate that problem and significantly slowing any response to that problem.

[Tarpon75]

Nope, what doesn't make sense is the irresponsibility of some gun owners. Should someone who leaves a loaded rifle lying in the corner so he could shoot his two year old sister own a gun? Should we demand that gun owners keep their weapons in a way that makes it tougher to steal? Maybe. Maybe not, but if what your saying is that criminals have easy and ready access to guns by breaking into gun owners homes than guns aren't really a deterrent or even protective, right.

I believe if someone is to own a gun they should so so responsibly and that includes making it difficult for kids or bad guys to get their hands on them.

Very strong possibility of guns being smuggled into the country by illegals and profiteers.Doubt most guns used in this type of gang violence are stolen from registered gun owners.There may be some but a large amount are coming into this nation illegally.

[Going Commando]

I thought trying to score political points immediately after a tragedy wasn't acceptable around here?

That might have worked a couple tragedies ago.

[NoCalMike]

Isn't Gun ownership declining overall in America?

Aren't most new gun sales being made by folks who already have guns and further by folks who are hoarding guns (for whatever reason)?

[Kosher Ham]

I want that too. I want to make it tougher for irresponsible, unstable, and criminals to murder.

So basically everyone ? I am for a tougher process to attain, but that is not a fix.

Yeah, I think they do this to try to wear people out so they'll give up. I can't believe this is actually theiry logic.

Don't paint yourself in a box. Nor others.

I'm failing to see the logic of selling a criminal a gun and then sending the police after the now armed criminal. You could just legally sell the gun and likely get as much if not more for it. I could be wrong though, I don't know the rates going on the black market.

Black Market weapons are more expensive. They pay for the privacy. The original guy is a criminal also...he buys in bulk, and makes his profit. To save his own butt he throws the buyer under the bus. However it is rare that that even happens.

Isn't Gun ownership declining overall in America?

Aren't most new gun sales being made by folks who already have guns and further by folks who are hoarding guns (for whatever reason)?

From what I understand more people are buying because they can, and fear that they may not have that option in the future. Plenty of new gun owners from what I understand. The hoarding is from people who are already hoarding.

Sometimes I think it is a marketing stategy, that costs all of us a ton of money.

[Guild]

Your right about suicide rates, but what about homicide rates? I posted most of whats below in the thread on the 5 year old shooting his 2 year old sister dead. It was the last post in the thread - still think its relevant here.

My contention is that the scale of ownership, interest and culture around guns in the US is a problem.

I travel to and stay in the US a lot and obviously am from and live in the UK and I have been to a lot of the US not just the normal tourist or business destinations. I would contend that there are far more similarities between the UK and US than differences though I do accept the UK is more monolithic than the US. We have similar political systems and values, similar education systems and attainment, are exposed to almost identical cultural influences through TV, music and video games etc etc. The main differences in our atitudes in my experience is atitudes to guns and God - the US is a much more religious nation than the UK.

I would argue that your gun culture and the proliferation of guns in private ownership (legal or illegal) is a HUGE problem. The strict gun laws in the UK were brought in after Dunblane in large part in response to that event but shootings still happen as at Cumbria. However in 2011 (last full year stats I could find quoted) there were 8775 murders (homicides) by firearm in the US - so no suicides or accidental deaths in that number. in the UK in 2011 there were 58 murders by firearm. If you adjust for population difference that 58 adjusts to 290.

8,775 murders in the US by firearm compared to 290 in the UK.

I think its worth noting that despite our gun laws which make it almost impossible for a normal citizen to own a firearm legally illegal guns are of course available. These are used almost exclusively by criminals (almost by definition) - and mainly by criminals to shoot other criminals. Armed robbery of domestic/private property is very very rare in the UK, armed robbery tends to happen against commercial targets like Banks or security vans and is also quite rare (our police are normally unarmed as well - we have special armed response teams though). Something to think about in the context of the guns for self defence arguments.

On the correlation between the scale of gun ownership and murder rate see the study below.

http://www.psmag.com/culture/the-correlation-between-gun-ownership-and-homicide-rate-55467/

You have a problem in the US with the scale of ownership of guns and the resultant cost in human life. IMO the culture around gun ownership and use is helping perpetuate that problem and significantly slowing any response to that problem.

This is a well-written post, with legit data to back it up. Cheers on that.

However, I'm assuming we'd disagree on which path (if any) could be taken towards lowering gun-violence in America.

As a gun-owner and someone who knows tons of other gun owners, we are simply the (mostly good) result of the way the USA was founded as relating to the second amendment.

If I could magically re-create America today, the gun laws would be VASTLY different. I would still allow private ownership, but there would be a lot more involved in the purchase of a firearm (mandatory safety-classes, mandatory lockboxes/safes, yearly or bi-yearly weapon registration, more regulations on private-sales, etc.)

Unfortunately. that's just not how it is, and I don't think there's anything we can really do about it, ESPECIALLY when people propose to "make X illegal or reduce the amount of X you can buy."

It's like trying to take pee out of a pool. You just can't do it. There are so many guns in America (hundreds of millions), and gun-owners as a whole are SO entrenched in their beliefs (and rightfully so, it is in our Constitution) that there doesn't seem to be any sort of definite way to curb these kind of shootings. Magazine bans are a joke. "Assault weapons" bans are a joke. "Gun-control" as a whole, is pretty much a joke.

I think there's obviously a lot of good-intentions on the pro gun-control crowd, but I find that crowd mostly to be grossly misinformed on facts surrounding weapons and gun ownership as a whole. The average "ban guns!!!" person usually has no clue about anything when it comes to having a serious discussion about guns in America.

My opinion is that the solution lies somewhere in improving the collective psyche of America, but who the hell knows how we're actually going to fix that.

[RansomthePasserby]

. in the UK in 2011 there were 58 murders by firearm.

American... mind... does... not... compute...

[MartinC]

However, I'm assuming we'd disagree on which path (if any) could be taken towards lowering gun-violence in America.

I think before you even get to the solutions there needs to be some kind of consensus that there is a problem and agreement on what that problem is - in my view its the culture around gun ownership and the sheer scale of ownership of firearms. I dont think there are any easy or quick solutions though.

Unfortunately. that's just not how it is, and I don't think there's anything we can really do about it

I just don't accept there is nothing that can be done about 8,000 people a year being murdered with firearms. America is a great Country, I love the can do attitude and enthusiasm of the place and its people. I refuse to believe that nothing can be done about this if you set your minds to it.

My opinion is that the solution lies somewhere in improving the collective psyche of America, but who the hell knows how we're actually going to fix that.

I would call it a culture problem and its a very deep rooted cultural problem stemming from the 2nd Amendment and the way your Country was formed and what that has come to mean. Fixing it - assuming people first agree it needs to be fixed - is a generational project. In my experience cultural change needs to be driven from the top and requires vision and leadership from across the political spectrum (and thats the first huge problem right there). Communicate a vision of an America were you get to less than 1000 homicides a year through firearms and then engage in a serious debate about how you get there - 7000 plus lives a year is worth it.

[Burgold]

The problem with including suicides in the numbers is that you assume that if those people did not have access to guns they would not have killed themselves in other ways. The US and the UK have similar suicide rates. Japan's rate is nearly double the US. Guns are virtually unavailable in those countries yet they still find way to kill themselves in equal or greater numbers than the US.

The problem I have iwth this logic is that you are arguing something we can't know. Would 100% have attempted suicide if they had no access to guns? Would it have been 70%, 30%? We can't know. Of that number, how many would have been successful compared to those who killed themselves via gun? All I know is what happened and how it happened. I don't think it's unfair to say that suicide rates are equivalent and that guns aren't therefore a more significant contributor, but I do think the numbers would have to be different.

Guns are not the cause of suicide, I agree, but I don't quite get the logic of counting gun deaths and deciding that accidental deaths, suicides, and the like shouldn't count. After all, were it not for that gun who can say what might have happened esp. in the accidental cases.

[skinsmarydu]

No, but the NRA wants responsible gun owners on the front line taking bullets for them so they can prevent laws from being passed that will take guns away from the mentally ill, and make sure their pockets remain full. If you're a responsible gun owner, more gun control laws shouldn't change a thing.

Truth.

I'm all for preventing the mentally ill from getting their hands on firearms, with that said, there isn't a single law that would have prevented the maniac in Newtown from going on a shooting spree.

But we can at least have some LOGICAL discussions in Congress. Oh that's right, we can't. Some members are hooked to the NRA.

True. Politics is about extreme positions, not honesty or practical solutions.

But where does that leave those of us who want our politics practiced honestly and practically? We literally have no one to represent us. The crazies get to do all the talking, and that has been proven to help no one.

Isn't Gun ownership declining overall in America?

Aren't most new gun sales being made by folks who already have guns and further by folks who are hoarding guns (for whatever reason)?

Yes, and there's a problem with that, too, with the "folks" who want to kill their POTUS just because he's black. For no other reason.

My contention is that the scale of ownership, interest and culture around guns in the US is a problem.

8,775 murders in the US by firearm compared to 290 in the UK.

I think its worth noting that despite our gun laws which make it almost impossible for a normal citizen to own a firearm legally illegal guns are of course available. These are used almost exclusively by criminals (almost by definition) - and mainly by criminals to shoot other criminals. Armed robbery of domestic/private property is very very rare in the UK, armed robbery tends to happen against commercial targets like Banks or security vans and is also quite rare (our police are normally unarmed as well - we have special armed response teams though). Something to think about in the context of the guns for self defence arguments.

On the correlation between the scale of gun ownership and murder rate see the study below.

http://www.psmag.com/culture/the-correlation-between-gun-ownership-and-homicide-rate-55467/

You have a problem in the US with the scale of ownership of guns and the resultant cost in human life. IMO the culture around gun ownership and use is helping perpetuate that problem and significantly slowing any response to that problem.

So well said I can't think of anything to add. Thanks.

[Bang]

Too much to ask to let the injured get out of surgery before we turn to our political agenda? Should we try to find out if the shooters were muslim? Illegals? Minorities? It is New Orleans afterall

Why?

I truly don't get this.

Why do we have to pretend we have some sort of human respect for these statistics?

we do NOTHING to protect anyone from this happening. They're just the latest victims.

we just hope it doesn't, and then when it does, we're all supposed to put on this false concern for all the people we didn't care enough about to do anything for beforehand?

Makes no sense, all this "compassion".

Words mean nothing. Action.. it doesn't exist. So why bother playing at being shocked and upset?

We're clearly not shocked or upset enough to take any steps to try and prevent it other than to clasp our hands together and pray.

~Bang

[DM72]

I don't know why we need to pretend to give a crap about the victims,, our lack of action on any issue surrounding this problem sort of proves that it's only lip service.

~Bang

I totally agree.

---------- Post added May-13th-2013 at 08:33 AM ----------

Ahh, so us law abiding citizens who take gun ownership seriously need to hand in our guns HOPING the criminals decide not to shoot up a mothers day parade.

Doesn't make sense to me, but I can see how it makes sense to someone who has never owned or probably even fired a "gun".

Let me ask this. What's the real reason you guys need guns so bad. I can almost see a point in owning a gun if live in a dangerous area, but the vast majority of us will NEVER need a gun. As far as I'm concerned, something bad is more likely to happen to you or someone in your family than you actually saving them from a threat.

[SkinInsite]

Can we just link back to the Sandy Hook thread, seems insane to argue the same thing over and over again.