The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[Panninho]

6 minutes ago, LetThePointsSoar said:

 

It is what it is, and it's going to change, but one point that drives me crazy is countless articles mention (insert here a number anywhere from 50-90 depending on which survey you believe) percentage of Native Americans that "aren't offended" and leave it at that without addressing what the real underlying issue is. 

 

It's not that we're "not offended", that makes it sound like we're indifferent and it's much deeper than that. IT'S A SOURCE OF PRIDE.  That's why you see so many of us with Native American heritage who are Redskins fans. 

 

So while I'm certain the change is coming, the irony is that we are continuing to strip the history of our heritage, in order to save what we were told by OTHERS we should be offended by. 

 

There is no right answer that will appease all sides, and I'm certain the name change is happening and very soon, and at this point, at least we won't have to talk about it any longer. But I, for one, pray that at least the name continues to have some ties to our Native American heritage (i.e. Warriors, etc) so you at least acknowledge that you're ripping out the identity of us life long fans who are fans BECAUSE we're Native Americans. 

 

Hail. 

But would that pride be reduced if they would still honor that NA heritage just with a different NA themed name that does not offend the other half? Serious question.

[arftech]

20 hours ago, illone said:

 

i like it but too close to the Jets. 😒 

But there were no jets in WW2...so there's that.

[Going Commando]

10 minutes ago, Panninho said:

Well the latest poll shows that at least half of Native Americans are offended by it. So where does this then leave us?

https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/02/04/native-mascots-survey/

 

But even if it would just be 20 or 30%, why wouldn't that 20 or 30% count? I mean that's still a lot of people you would offend with that.

 

I don't know man, that study and set of conclusions feels problematic.  It looks like their methodology involved recruiting a sample of activist and progressive Native Americans who are probably not as representative of more general Native American attitudes as a random sample would be.  But beyond that, it concludes with a pretty thinly veiled argument that the "real" Native Americans are offended by the name.

 

In response to your question, for better or worse, majorities matter.  At a practical level.  It's the reason why we have to change the name now.  The majority has determined that Redskins is a slur and is no longer culturally acceptable.  The meaning and usage of Redskins was changed and redefined by the majority.

[LetThePointsSoar]

1 minute ago, Panninho said:

But would that pride be reduced if they would still honor that NA heritage just with a different NA themed name that does not offend the other half? Serious question.

 

Therein lies the million dollar question, right?  Don't know that answer, but I pray that's the resolution. 

 

And I know this thread is now not supposed to bleed into name suggestions, but if you can at least keep a NA themed name, it is the best direction to appease both sides IMO. 

 

And not that my one single opinion or pocketbook makes ANY difference... But it's also why if we end up with a name that completely separates from NA references completely, I really will have a hard time to continue as a fan.  

[Panninho]

1 minute ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I don't know man, that study and set of conclusions feels problematic.  It looks like their methodology involved recruiting a sample of activist and progressive Native Americans who are probably not as representative of more general Native American attitudes as a random sample would be.  But beyond that, it concludes with a pretty thinly veiled argument that the "real" Native Americans are offended by the name.

 

In response to your question, for better or worse, majorities matter.  At a practical level.  It's the reason why we have to change the name now.  The majority has determined that Redskins is a slur and is no longer culturally acceptable.  The meaning and usage of Redskins was changed and redefined by the majority.

I mean after all they show their methodology and the sampling was good enough to be published in a peer reviewed journal, not something you can claim for the other polls. Also their sampling seems to be quite representative of all political ideologies.

 

 

[Chelsea_Phil]

The Washington ultra-liberals has a nice sound to it, and is most akin to what the team has and will become. 

[skinsmarydu]

Three of my 4 tattoos are tribal. I wear a silver tribal bracelet that my parents gave me for Christmas in '97, I have NEVER removed it since that day, except for when absolutely necessary for medical procedures (and I put up a fight about it then, trust me). 

Being a fan of this team is my identity. It's just hard to imagine a change at my age. 

I'm old. 

[Jumbo]

19 hours ago, MartinC said:

 

Anyone screaming gratuitous insults at ‘Libs’ or ‘MAGATs’ (wether aimed at a specific poster or just in general) with no actual content arguing a point about the name change is going to be on the wrong end of a ban quickly. 

 

3 minutes ago, Chelsea_Phil said:

The Washington ultra-liberals has a nice sound to it, and is most akin to what the team has and will become. 

 

 

no-no, temp ban

[dchogs]

i think the fact that we have to have nuanced arguments and heavily researched etymology to defend the Redskins name says enough for me.  I've been a name defender forever, but it's time for change.  i do think it would be different if the team had been worth a crap for the last three decades; fighting to keep the name at this point is just a fight for nostalgia.  i'm not proud to be a Redskins fan (if people ask, I say it with a shrug and a joke about it proving my loyalty), and if the name offends people (correctly or incorrectly), then all the more reason to change. 

 

if it's going to happen, let's fully correct this thing and NOT keep a connection to native name/imagery.   i think 50% of the outrage is the name Redskins and the other 50% is cultural appropriation/native americans not wanting to be a mascot, no matter how nobly presented or revered.  if we go warriors, go military.

[Jumbo]

21 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Just for clarification, stadium thread is for what people would like to see the logo and name to be, but tailgate thread is for what's actually happening and debate around it?

 

I saw this and didn't know where you put it

 

 

Just making sure I'm meeting what you asking for.

  

 

moving forward, anytime you're confused about anything, just don't post it (you post a ton a day already anyway   and it's usually, mostly, good stuff)

 

the above goes for anyone who's been around here more than a month

 

the forum will survive the loss of those few posts

 

i'm not going to keep trying to do multiple individual one-on-one tutoring along with everything else  

 

 

 

[Going Commando]

26 minutes ago, LetThePointsSoar said:

Therein lies the million dollar question, right?  Don't know that answer, but I pray that's the resolution. 

 

And I know this thread is now not supposed to bleed into name suggestions, but if you can at least keep a NA themed name, it is the best direction to appease both sides IMO. 

 

And not that my one single opinion or pocketbook makes ANY difference... But it's also why if we end up with a name that completely separates from NA references completely, I really will have a hard time to continue as a fan.  

 

As a Native American fan, do you think there is a name and mascot out there that could honor Native American culture and heritage in a general way (without necessarily favoring one specific tribe, culture, or region) without it being deemed offensive by broader public opinion?

 

Do you think it would be better for the team to perhaps focus on honoring one specific tribe or group?

 

I agree with you, I don't want to further erase Native American presence from the pageant of American history and pop culture by obliterating the connection of Native Americans to sports teams.  It's part of our American heritage and it's one of the surprising and strange ways that whites have tried to pay homage to Native Americans.  And even if it's awkward and superficial and occasionally problematic, Native American team names do preserve some tradition and awareness of the honorable and complex warrior cultures of Native American civilizations.

 

My idea is to determine that we want to keep our Native American connection and honor Native American culture and history, and then just ask a variety of Native American groups how we can do that.  Conduct extensive and comprehensive surveys and hire Native Americans from a variety of backgrounds to come up with a name and set of traditions that honor without offending.  Hopefully that would work.

[tshile]

2 hours ago, Springfield said:

It's the next best thing to Snyder selling the team.

No....

 

this is a cash injection via rebranding because they’re out of options and can’t create a competitive product to sell. 
 

It’s going to be the same clown show with a different name they’ll just have more money cause plenty of people will buy the new gear (until they realize it’s the same team)

 

just like getting a new stadium is about everything other than trying to win football games. 

[LetThePointsSoar]

4 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

 

My idea is to determine that we want to keep our Native American connection and honor Native American culture and history, and then just ask a variety of Native American groups how we can do that.  Conduct extensive and comprehensive surveys and hire Native Americans from a variety of backgrounds to come up with a name and set of traditions that honor without offending.  Hopefully that would work.

 

If you had the time, I completely agree. But I think because we've pushed off the conversation for so long that the proverbial angry mob is already at the front door with pitchforks, I'm not certain you have enough time to do it properly. At least in terms of picking the new name/mascot. 

 

But in a perfect world (and with great leadership, something that most of us always have doubts that exists in Ashburn) you'd at least continue the conversation after the fact on finding ways to honor and give back to NA culture, or even monetarily give back to organizations that support Native Americans. 

[dchogs]

6 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

 

 

I agree with you, I don't want to further erase Native American presence from the pageant of American history and pop culture by obliterating the connection of Native Americans to sports teams.  It's part of our American heritage and it's one of the surprising and strange ways that whites have tried to pay homage to Native Americans.  And even if it's awkward and occasionally problematic, Native American team names do preserve tradition and awareness of the honorable and complex warrior cultures of Native American civilizations.

 

the history of america and native americans ain't a good thing from the native POV.  WE-- i.e. non-natives-- have romanticized the wild west.  thinking that the native americans WANT or NEED us white folk to preserve their tradition for them is very patronizing. 

[China]

27 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

  

i'm not going to keep trying to do multiple individual one-on-one tutoring along with everything else  

 

 

 

 

Oh, but Jumbo...I love our one-on-ones!

 

[Ashburn Dave]

<mod edit--goes in stadium thread>

 

[Going Commando]

24 minutes ago, dchogs said:

the history of america and native americans ain't a good thing from the native POV.  WE-- i.e. non-natives-- have romanticized the wild west.  thinking that the native americans WANT or NEED us white folk to preserve their tradition for them is very patronizing. 

 

History is history, making a determination of it being good or bad is a function of an agenda that is usually political, i.e. using history to push a contemporary political sensibility.  Romanticizing westward expansion is kind of the opposite agenda of trying to pay homage to Native American warrior traditions.  Do you really think Native Americans want to be erased from pop culture?  Do you really think it's a bad thing to want to honor some of their history and traditions if it could be done in a way that wouldn't offend majority public opinion?

[mistertim]

I certainly wouldn't mind something that (legit) honors Native Americans but I feel like that's potentially still stepping into a minefield for us at this point given the history, how long we resisted even considering a change, and how loud the chorus has grown about getting rid of a name that most consider to be a slur.

 

To me that would be a bit like if you had a team called the Negros and for decades refused to change the name in defiance of a rising public sentiment that it was a slur against African Americans and then one day (and only when your profits were threatened) said "OK, fine. Can we be the Black Panthers then? Cause we still want to be associated with African American culture". I think most people would probably say "I mean, I suppose it's theoretically ok that you'd want to honor that...but seriously, just drop it, my guys."

 

I don't think that's a direct correlation necessarily, as you'd probably be pretty hard pressed to find anyone nowadays who wouldn't immediately consider the word negro a slur without having to think or debate about it, but you get the gist of what I'm saying. 

[DCSaints_fan]

If Redskins change their name, Chiefs need to be next.   I don't see how one is offensive but not the other, when associated with Native Americans.

[RansomthePasserby]

With all the name change talk, I haven’t heard a lot about empathy for us fans. We grew up rooting for the Redskins because the name, colors, and logo represents our favorite football team and players. For me, I didn’t associate the team name with Native Americans when I started rotting for the Redskins as a kid. It was just the name of my team. 
 

It should be changed, but I hope they do it with dignity. The past few years, as a fan, it feels like people who don’t understand our connection to the team are treating us like some evil to be destroyed without acknowledging that us fans will be losing something we have loved for a long time.

[88Comrade2000]

10 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

It was a great name.  It had a historic connection to Baltimore and Pollin changed the name to a dorky joke on a lark.  But at this point, we're stuck with it.  Pollin felt so strongly about the change to Wizards that changing it back to the Bullets would be pissing on his grave.  He was a good man and doesn't deserve that.

 

The Wizards are a pretty good example of why the Redskins shouldn't change their name.

I thought the assassination of Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin in 1995 is what spurred him to change the name?

[PokerPacker]

4 hours ago, sempre_victrix said:

Now you're just trolling 

 

Do we have any helmets with a W on them?

I'm thinking something like this on the helmets:

[Simmsy]

If I were Snyder, I would agree with the name change, but I would point out that the Chiefs need to change their name as well or it will all be for nothing.

[88Comrade2000]

nm.  Just saw the new thread for name suggestions.

[Kosher Ham]

Wrong thread. Geez. ^^^^