Renegade7 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 I've seen this come up a couple times today, I think we all have. I believe its fair to put forth the win-lose record to close the argument, but is this really worse then Swinging Gate and "Bingo" Lewis? Remember Osaka? 49ers beat our *** that year. Albert Haynesworth, anyone? Vinny Cerrato Overall: 62-82 Playoffs: 1-2 (Two Playoff Seasons) Bruce Allen Overall: 52-75-1 Playoffs: 0-2 (Two Playoff Season) I used pro-football reference to find the records of the two men's time in their respective positions with the franchise. Here's the thing, because so many of you complained that Allen was really in charge when Scott was here, I added his record here to Allen's. To your delight, I am sure, it's still not better then Vinny's record, he's 35-61 and 0-1 in the playoffs. If Allen goes 10-6 next year, he'll be more or less in a tie with Vinny (depending on how you want to count Vinny having one more playoff game the Bruce). So then I was like "Clearly, we've drafted better", but it wasn't as obvious as I thought. This may be a good thread to really go into the deeper rounds, but just from what I remember from the Vinny years, it looks like we're getting better players overall in Allen's drafts. * = Pro-Bowler Vinny: 2000 LaVar Arrington* Chris Samuels* 2002 Patrick Ramsey 2003 No pick 2004 Sean Taylor * 2005 Carlos Rogers Jason Campbell 2006 No pick 2007 LaRon Landry* 2008 No pick 2009 Brian Orakpo* Five Pro-Bowlers drafted overall counting all rounds Allen: 2010 Trent Williams* 2011 Ryan Kerrigan * 2012 Robert Griffin III* 2013 No pick 2014 No pick 2015 Brandon Scherff* 2016 Josh Doctson 2017 Jonathan Allen Seven Pro-Bowlers drafted overall counting all rounds And for those who want to go back to Scott really was having the finally say on draft picks, he drafted only one of them. Again, I apologize, but I cannot in good conscious say the Vinny era was better then the Allen era right now. I like that we aren't overpaying people because you see us able to lock up our stars (outside Cousins obviously) like Williams, and Moses, and Kerrigan, and Reed. It always seemed like we were chasing after the next best thing instead of what we already had under Vinny, and we've changed that reputation, which I believe is a net positive. Trying to hire an actual football GM in Scott and trading up to top five pick for a franchise QB didn't work, but dammit Vinny never even tried that. I can, however accept that I am wrong and the Vinny era was better if we fail to have a winning record in the 2018 season, and he ends up with a lesser record than Vinny at the same point. I've supported not overpaying Cousins from the beginning, and we're overpaying for it still, so I get the frustration, I really do. Trading for a guy who's going to be 34 on opening day regular season instead of being able to figure out how to sign the guy you drafted will NEVER look good if they don't win football games, I don't care what Allen was thinking or says. You can argue that should be the final straw and I wouldn't try to stop you. Then I found this ****: Vinny was 6-10 against the Cowboys Allen is 5-13 against the Cowboys This is a Public Poll, please keep it classy. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter_R Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 I do not think one can truly be better than the other in this instance. One is simply less garbage than the other. I would also rather stick my dick in a blender and hit frappe than vote for either of these buffoons outside of them being equally terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Poll needs either a "They both suck" option or a "Same dude, better suit" option for Bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsFTW Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 18 minutes ago, TK said: Poll needs either a "They both suck" option or a "Same dude, better suit" option for Bruce. Everyone is going to pick that. How negligible the difference between the two are is truly disturbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 While Vinny was technically in charge for two playoff runs, the first was not really his team. Bruce's two playoff teams were pretty much his. I think Bruce's biggest problem is that he is more scared of making a bad deal than thrilled by the possibility of making a good deal. You also need to consider that from 2010 to 2013, he had a coach he thought could make good decisions which only proved true at all in 2012. In 2014, he had a rookie coach who got a team just raped by its former coach. For all intents and purposes, he is the fourth best GM we've had since I've been a fan. OK, not really saying much since we've really only had three good ones (arguably only 2) during that time. The main thing that Allen should be embarrassed about is the fact that our defense has sucked during his tenure and our special teams have been pretty inconsistent. I mean his daddy would not be proud of him if he knew what about the kind of defense Bruce has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 @TK You're right, I edited the poll, but I'm sticking with my vote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 @Renegade7 Yep, my answer won't change either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Darth Tater said: You also need to consider that from 2010 to 2013, he had a coach he thought could make good decisions which only proved true at all in 2012. That's an excellent point that I forgot about, Shanahan had final say on player personnel when he was here. I didn't think to put that since my source gave Allen credit for the record. I don't think it matters to people who don't like Allen and want him gone, and I haven't seen anywhere that Doug Williams had final say on the Alex Smith trade (nor do I believe he did). Edit: For the record, I believe Allen is personally responsible for our win-lose record since he was hired here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gooseneck Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Shouldn't the poll be who was better at winning the off season? I think Vinnie was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 For this to be an accurate representation, we need to take into account when each person was actually running the show. Vinny Bugeyes was running things from 2000-2003. From 2004 -7 he was little more than an intern, collating lists and film while Gibbs and Williams made decisions. Gibbs kept him around to humor Dannyboy. For example, Vinny is on record as saying he wanted KW2, but we drafted Sean Taylor. He then ran things into the ground in 2008 - 9. Allen was hired because Shamahan wanted him, and Shamu wanted him because Allen was unemployable and would therefore be subservient. Shanahan had full control of personnel contractually guaranteed. Like Cerrato under Gibbs, he just handled grunt work. Allen's only years of actually running the show were 2014 and last year. 2015 and 16 were Scotty Mac, though I suppose one should certainly give credit to Allen for hiring him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiscoBob Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 I'll go with Allen because of the restraint in Free Agency, but their draft record is similar. My frustration with both is the tendency to "get behind" with draft picks, always being down a pick or two every year. That HAS to stop. GMSM looked like he was righting the ship on that, but...wellllllll... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetThePointsSoar Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Bruce IS Vinny with better lipstick on the pig. Still pissed. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 20 minutes ago, Riggo-toni said: For this to be an accurate representation, we need to take into account when each person was actually running the show. Vinny Bugeyes was running things from 2000-2003. From 2004 -7 he was little more than an intern, collating lists and film while Gibbs and Williams made decisions. Gibbs kept him around to humor Dannyboy. For example, Vinny is on record as saying he wanted KW2, but we drafted Sean Taylor. He then ran things into the ground in 2008 - 9. Allen was hired because Shamahan wanted him, and Shamu wanted him because Allen was unemployable and would therefore be subservient. Shanahan had full control of personnel contractually guaranteed. Like Cerrato under Gibbs, he just handled grunt work. Allen's only years of actually running the show were 2014 and last year. 2015 and 16 were Scotty Mac, though I suppose one should certainly give credit to Allen for hiring him. That's fine if you want to do all that, I started this thread to see if people really thought Vinny was better then Allen (which I don't agree with). There are a lot of technicalities when it comes to counting records and draft picks, but they were both the head football executive during their tenures here, the one constant in those time periods outside of Dan. If somebody wants to go on record saying they felt Vinny was better, I'd like to hear why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
celticsalmon Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Vinny and Bruce are merely yesmen and puppets to the Master- Danny Snyder- Little Big Man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 The only real difference between the two is Allen has the last name that's kept him employed. Vinny's run as Dan's puppet cost him any shot at a future in football. I'm not big on judging two terds and picking the shinier one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 I think in every aspect of being in a leadership position, Bruce Allen is less embarrassing. He may be a snake or just a politician but he sits atop an organization much better than Vinny Cerrato. I also think that Vinny was simply doing what Snyder or Gibbs wanted to do for most of his run here. He may have truly led the front office in 2008-2009, but that's probably it. So, when he "hit" on Arrington and Samuels in the 2000 draft, it's tough to give him credit for that since he was essentially just doing what Snyder wanted to do. If you held a gun to my head and asked me which guy would likely do a better job scouting an entire draft, it's probably Cerrato because of his pedigree. But still, I agree with the overall premise here that Allen is a less embarrassing, more competent President of the franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 What, no Casserly option? The guy who secured the team generational talent like...Heath Schuler and Desmond Howard and Michael Westbrook... It's not even 10 a.m. and I need a stiff drink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 VInny wanted to trade two number one picks for Chad Ocho Cinco in 2008. We should've erected a statue of Mike Brown outside Ashburn for declining that trade. Vinny was worse and I'm the biggest Bruce Allen hater on this board Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drowland Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 46 minutes ago, thebluefood said: What, no Casserly option? The guy who secured the team generational talent like...Heath Schuler and Desmond Howard and Michael Westbrook... It's not even 10 a.m. and I need a stiff drink. Casserly had some really bad misses, but he actually left the Redskins and Texans in good shape when he left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOF44 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 I think Vinny was worse. Only thing that saved him a little was Gibbs II. They are both not qualified to be in the NFL though. Bruce is truly abysmal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dissident2 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 It's like asking whether or not you'd prefer to be gut-stabbed by a more typical, boring weapon like a knife (Allen) or a more unorthodox slightly whacky weapon like a trident (Vinny). You're going to meet Satan anyway, so going with the trident at least makes the eulogy more interesting. I go with the trident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 I think the big difference is Vinny had Joe Gibbs. Joe, even though he was out of it, was enough of a motivator and coach to pull out some very strong seasons. Under Allen, Shanny sucked (minus one good RGIII year) and Gruden has been mediocre. The 1987 question was always... what could Gibbs have pulled off using that scab team if he had to go against NFL rosters for 16 games. With Vinny as GM, we kind of found out that answer. Two trips to the playoffs in four years and a playoff win. Hell of an achievement really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 1 minute ago, drowland said: Casserly had some really bad misses, but he actually left the Redskins and Texans in good shape when he left. Well, we did win the NFC East in '99 (albeit in a pretty mediocre year for the division) and almost made it to the NFC Championship Game. Sort of wonder what would have happened if the team stayed on a steadier course in 2000 instead of...well, you remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo#44 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 "Winning Off the Field" vs. "Sacks n' Stuff" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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