2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[Voice_of_Reason]

57 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I wish it was just the Junks flinging poo against the wall.  It’s not really the hosts, it’s everyone they have on that’s been present at camp, observing the OL.  

None of them know what they are looking at.  Not one of the media people really knows. None of them 1. know what the OL is supposed to, 2. what they are working on, or 3. if it's succesful.  The one thing I heard from a bunch of folks is in the 1:1 drills, the OL has actually looked fairly good.  Cosmi has beaten Payne, Leno and Wylie are holding their own, etc.  But as a unit with 4 new starters, they are working it out.  

 

But that level of nuance is completely lost on the media.  

 

Again, it REALLY COULD BE they are awful.  But with 3 days of padded practices, it's just absolutely too early to have an opinion.  And what frustrates me is it's almost unprofessional to keep pushing this narrative without the context.  

 

We'll be able to tell by actions of the team over the next couple of weeks if the team thinks it's going to be a problem.  After the Raven's practices, if they think they need to make a move, that's when you'll start seeing some activity.

[Conn]

28 minutes ago, burgngold fan said:

So daniels having a bad camp on a team that has a bad ol.  But everyone is worried he gets snatched up and not make the practice squad!  Not sure I understand that logic!  

We spent a 4th round pick on a developmental guy who needed to work his way into an NFL body. Obviously would not play year 1. If he is a cut then that is an immense failure. Because you knew he wasn’t going to be roster worthy year 1 but decided to make the long term upside pick anyways, projecting his upside as a reason to roster him when he can’t play. I will be shocked if he’s cut and it would be an indictment of the mindset of that entire draft strategy that we’ve already been questioning. 
 

Meanwhile Darnell Washington, who fell and fell, is having a great camp, seems to be basically a 3rd OT as a blocker, and is even impressing as a receiver and moving well for his immense size. Dawand Jones, who fell and fell, is having a good camp and can obviously play and has an NFL body already. Stromberg? Taken before him, would be a disaster if he sees the field bc he also doesn’t have an NFL ready body. 
 

There’s a lot riding on this OL not being ass for Rivera & Co. to not look like absolute fools with the way their draft strategy played out, and the guys they passed on in favor of further improving the defense. 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Conn

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Don't know about 'people".  But speaking for myself, I've acknowleged it repeatedly even recently

Wasn't referring to you at all. 

[SkinsFTW]

8 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I think OL play might be one of the hardest things to predict.  It's one of the units where individual talent is important, but how the group works together is as important.  And there are 4 new players in starting positions on the line in a new scheme. 

 

 

Exactly the point. New QB, new scheme, new OC, 4 new starters on an OL that was garbage last year. It looks like garbage so far as well. The schedule going from easiest to one of the toughest also, with a bunch of better defenses.

 

Odds are, it is going to once again stink. 

Edited August 5, 2023 by SkinsFTW

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I've debated this point previously including if I recall versus you when I referenced Dan's cash flow before the point became cool when all the articles started flooding about it.  

Dan's cash flow issue had nothing to do with signing/not signing FAs.  They had the cap room to do more, and you have to spend to the cap floor.  The question is, while the sale was pending, what could they do?  Well, they managed to sign Daron Payne to a big money extension.  They could have done more this off season.  Dan's cash flow problems prevented him from paying back a huge chunk of debt and building a new stadium.  It had zero, zilch, zada, nada impact on signing another starting LT.  Especially when he knew he was selling the team.  

[SkinsFTW]

4 minutes ago, Conn said:

Her spent a 4th round pick on a developmental guy who needed to work his way into an NFL body. Obviously would not play year 1. If he is a cut then that is an immense failure. Because you knew he wasn’t going to be roster worthy year 1 but decided to make the long term upside pick anyways, projecting his upside as a reason to roster him when he can’t play. I will be shocked if he’s cut and it would be an indictment of the mindset of that entire draft strategy that we’ve already been questioning. 
 

Meanwhile Darnell Washington, who fell and fell, is having a great camp, seems to be basically a 3rd OT as a blocker, and is even impressing as a receiver and moving well for his immense size. Dawand Jones, who fell and fell, is having a good camp and can obviously play and has an NFL body already. Stromberg? Taken before him, would be a disaster if he sees the field bc he also doesn’t have an NFL ready body. 
 

There’s a lot riding on this OL not being ass for Rivera & Co. to not look like absolute fools with the way their draft strategy played out, and the guys they passed on in favor of further improving the defense. 

 

Well after reading your post they already sound like absolute fools for using 3rd and 4th rounders on players who can't play right now. They didn't pick them as UDFA's but actual mid round picks when usually they'd get actual players with those picks, like other teams apparently are doing. Ron is looking more and more gone as each day passes. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Exactly the point. New QB, new scheme, new OC, 4 new starters on an OL that was garbage last year. It looks like garbage so far as well. The schedule going from easiest to one of the toughest also, with a bunch of better defenses.

 

Odds are, it is going to once again stink. 

I mean, after 3 or 4 padded practices, I think it's a bit early to make any judgement whatsoever in either direction on just about anything.  

 

You point out it was garbage last year.  Well, it was.  But several of the members of last year's OL aren't on the team anymore, so what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?  

 

Other things which impacted the OL's performance last year:  REDACTED/Wentz were horrendous at getting the ball out quickly, and Scott Turner refused to adapt to protect the line.  Oh, and Rouiller and Schweitzer both got hurt and a guy named Nick Martin was playing center for large stretches of the season, who just couldn't play.

 

I'd just like to see evidence of it actually stinking with more of a sample size of less than 1 week of padded practices.  That's all.  If they're still unable to get their act together after the Raven's practices, then it might be time to start to be worried.  It's just too early to pass judgement at this point. 

2 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Well after reading your post they already sound like absolute fools for using 3rd and 4th rounders on players who can't play right now. They didn't pick them as UDFA's but actual mid round picks when usually they'd get actual players with those picks, like other teams apparently are doing. Ron is looking more and more gone as each day passes. 

This, I agree, was really stupid use of assets.  

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Wasn't referring to you at all. 

 

I didn't think so.  But my point is I can agree with a couple of those premises but then disagree with the conclusion.  So that's why i bothered with the point.

 

14 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Dan's cash flow issue had nothing to do with signing/not signing FAs. 

 

14 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 It had zero, zilch, zada, nada impact on signing another starting LT.  Especially when he knew he was selling the team.  

 

If your point is just this off season considering he's not paying the bills ultimately, I agree.

 

But if you are referencing last year, etc....

 

Beat reporters have said they heard it effected their FA among other things.  And that was part of the reason why Ron referenced his budget

 

The dude is cutting back on traveling expenses as was reported by Sheehan last year among other things.  Ron said camp in Richmind was too expensive. His cash issues was central to the plot of him selling.  According to some covering the sale, Dan's cash flow issues effected multiple things.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Conn]

51 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

None of them know what they are looking at.  Not one of the media people really knows. None of them 1. know what the OL is supposed to, 2. what they are working on, or 3. if it's succesful.  The one thing I heard from a bunch of folks is in the 1:1 drills, the OL has actually looked fairly good.  Cosmi has beaten Payne, Leno and Wylie are holding their own, etc.  But as a unit with 4 new starters, they are working it out.  

 

But that level of nuance is completely lost on the media.  

 

Again, it REALLY COULD BE they are awful.  But with 3 days of padded practices, it's just absolutely too early to have an opinion.  And what frustrates me is it's almost unprofessional to keep pushing this narrative without the context.  

 

We'll be able to tell by actions of the team over the next couple of weeks if the team thinks it's going to be a problem.  After the Raven's practices, if they think they need to make a move, that's when you'll start seeing some activity.

 

One wonders why you pay attention to the offseason and training camp at all given you think there’s nothing to be gained from observing it. You’re becoming a bit of an extremist on this point and it’s getting ridiculous. It started with your anti-Thor draftnik rage and I think most people nodded along bemusedly. But it’s progressed into a full-on emotional crusade against any local or national media analysis of…well, anything involving the talent on the roster. I don’t remember your name being ironic in the past but it’s sort of becoming so lately. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

None of them know what they are looking at.  Not one of the media people really knows. None of them 1. know what the OL is supposed to, 2. what they are working on, or 3. if it's succesful.  The one thing I heard from a bunch of folks is in the 1:1 drills, the OL has actually looked fairly good.  Cosmi has beaten Payne, Leno and Wylie are holding their own, etc.  But as a unit with 4 new starters, they are working it out.  

 

 

You seem to be riding on one Paulsen podcast where he was feeling better.  He's been positive and negative depending on the podcast.

 

I've heard mix things about the one on ones.  Good days-bad days -- depending on the day and who is reporting.

 

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

None of them know what they are looking at.  Not one of the media people really knows. None of them 1. know what the OL is supposed to, 2. what they are working on, or 3. if it's succesful.  

 

But that level of nuance is completely lost on the media.  

 

 

You seem to get a bit annoyed when the media or some here aren't positive currently.  That certainly wasn't the case for you in the Jay era.  If you are looking for positivity there is plenty of it though on some units.  But by and large the national, local media and a chunk of the fans here aren't agreeing with you as to your 10-7, playoff season prediction.  So you aren't going to get that feel good vibe from everyone.   I recall you were very upset about the negativity about Wentz in any context last off season.  In your shoes, I'd just ignore it.   Heck if anything for superstition reasons alone.

 

Watching the O line isn't that complex as to pass protect specifically.  I noticed in a nano second watching practice that one day I was there that the D line was destroying the O line.  I said it before the media made it into a narrative at the end of the day.  It's not  complex.  It's not that hard to see in pass protection if the O lineman wins or loses.  I am no football genuis to say the least but I'll confidently say I know what am looking at in the context of whether the O lineman wins or loses.  And unless the media folks are morons they can see it, too

Edited August 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, UK Skins said:

 

I love you SIP and really appreciate your sterling work keeping us all updated, but as someone who hates bugs... aarghh!! I really feel for Robinson now!

 

lol, meant big.

 

3 hours ago, DWinzit said:

Ew, so he is struggling against all the edge guys???....

 

Listening to all the narratives, up and down. 

[redskinss]

O.m.g. hilarious!

 

 

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8LaXQfN/

 

 

[DWinzit]

3 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Yeah, I can’t really take too seriously the idea that Larsen could (legitimately) help at guard, and I don’t think Daniels will be ready soon, so I wouldn’t factor in those two in this regard.  

 

As to Stromberg, I have no real personal opinion of him in terms of guard capabilities.  My mention of Ron mentioning his potential to play guard, while technically public, was during the draft video (talking to one of the Martys maybe?) - ie not directed at the camera/public… seemed serious about it (but also that Stromberg would need some time to develop).  

 

The idea that Daniels and Stromberg will make the squad, but aren’t going to be ready anytime soon, is certainly a knock on our depth.  On the other hand, we’ve got a combo of proven depth at T and C (Lucas and Larsen), and those two also then allow Wylie or Gates to move if need be.  So our guard depth is Charles, Paul, Cosmi, Wylie and Gates.  I’m not optimistic about Charles (talent and health-wise), Paul is unproven, and Cosmi keeps getting banged up, so while the latter two offer some promise, it’s a sketchy group.  On the flip side, Wylie/Gates give you some proven insurance there, though I know its not black and white (continuity concerns, changing out two positions if one goes down, them possibly playing guard position they’re less used to).

 

My take is that while I think losing Cosmi would definitely hurt a bit, the below permutations aren’t all that different (though the nuance above could factor in).

Leno-Paul-Gates-Cosmi-Wylie

Leno-Gates-Larsen-Cosmi-Wylie

Leno-Charles-Gates-Wylie-Lucas

Leno-Charles-Gates-Paul-Wylie

and so on.  None of them really promising, but none of them looking like a disaster either, which is a pretty decent sign for depth IMO.

 

As hard as it is to swallow, right now we are reliant on Leno, Gates, Wylie, Cosmi, Lucas, Paul and Larsen. Lordy should we all pray for them all staying healthy

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

None of them know what they are looking at.  Not one of the media people really knows. None of them 1. know what the OL is supposed to, 2. what they are working on, or 3. if it's succesful.  The one thing I heard from a bunch of folks is in the 1:1 drills, the OL has actually looked fairly good.  Cosmi has beaten Payne, Leno and Wylie are holding their own, etc.  But as a unit with 4 new starters, they are working it out.  

 

But that level of nuance is completely lost on the media.  

 

Again, it REALLY COULD BE they are awful.  But with 3 days of padded practices, it's just absolutely too early to have an opinion.  And what frustrates me is it's almost unprofessional to keep pushing this narrative without the context.  

 

We'll be able to tell by actions of the team over the next couple of weeks if the team thinks it's going to be a problem.  After the Raven's practices, if they think they need to make a move, that's when you'll start seeing some activity.

The criticism doesn’t come off uninformed or unprofessional at all though.  Beat reporters don’t need to be Joe Bugel (rip) to identify guys getting whipped.  I think that’s the more alarming aspect of it, that it’s been so obvious.

 

Obviously, I hope it’s all much ado about nothing, and things start to even up a bit.

[KDawg]

It's not hard to figure out what the OL is supposed to be doing if you have a bit of football background. It's not out of the realm of reality to criticize the group for their lack of play based on their play in camp.

 

To me, the only real domino that has to fall before we get a more "solid" verdict is matching up against other teams. There is a distinct possibility that they are getting their asses handed to them because our DL is absolutely dominant in the League and not just against our guys.

 

But, of course, there is likely the possibility that they just aren't good.

 

My guess is that it's more of B than A, but a bit of both of them combined.

 

But we'll see.

 

But I wouldn't bury my head in the sand and say "NOPE! I CAN'T HEAR YOU! THIS OL IS NOT BAD! GO AWAY BAD VOICES!" and dismiss the whole thing as cluelessness. 

[lovemaskins]

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The criticism doesn’t come off uninformed or unprofessional at all though.  Beat reporters don’t need to be Joe Bugel (rip) to identify guys getting whipped.  I think that’s the more alarming aspect of it, that it’s been so obvious.

 

Obviously, I hope it’s all much ado about nothing, and things start to even up a bit.

I tend to agree. I take the same approach in the job I do. As a QA analyst, if I can tell something is wrong from my perspective, it’s bad. Now true, the line should look better once they learn the system and move as a coordinated unit. 

[SkinsFTW]

36 minutes ago, lovemaskins said:

I tend to agree. I take the same approach in the job I do. As a QA analyst, if I can tell something is wrong from my perspective, it’s bad. Now true, the line should look better once they learn the system and move as a coordinated unit. 

 

But to expect a line with 4 new starters (of mostly below average players or dudes who are always injured) with everybody on offense learning a new scheme, with basically as rookie QB, new OC, etc. to just be good to go the first year when it's already obvious that they are looking bad, that seems like some people are putting their fingers in their ears and going LALALALALA!!! to the rest of us. LOL. 

 

But either way, we're going to know soon enough and I'm going with this OL is going to be bottom 10 in the league once again, and it could be even worse unless Bienemy unexpectedly pulls some Shanahan **** on everybody with it. 

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, DWinzit said:

As hard as it is to swallow, right now we are reliant on Leno, Gates, Wylie, Cosmi, Lucas, Paul and Larsen. Lordy should we all pray for them all staying healthy

Absolutely.  And I’m with you in not including Charles on that list.  From my perspective, I kind of like 1 aspect of our depth - that we have a proven guy at each spot, so we should be able to (relatively) withstand 1 injury at each position.

I don’t like 1) having 2 young guys that should make the roster that aren’t ready to play, and 2) having 2 center only guys expected to make the roster (though we’ve been in that situation before, such as with Roullier and Ismael).  

 

And then of course there’s Charles.  Hoping he shows us something, but it’s not something I’m counting on.  So, while things can change, that’s 3 guys I’m basically writing off for the season - as you implied above.  Yikes.

 

Specific to guard, I think having Wylie and Gates as options there is a plus (though I admit I’m not sure if that covers both guard spots or they’re both accustomed to one over the other), but assuming they’re both in the starting lineup, that forces two positional changes rather than 1 (if Cosmi or Paul miss time).  Not ideal.

 

Overall, a pretty lackluster group, from starters to backups.  Sliver of silver lining?  Less of a height to fall from if/when someone goes down.  

[TheShredder]

It's not that RR (the guy with 100% roster control) has gambled with Howell...it's that he's not corrected the bad OL roster decisions and magnified the problem with poor off-season choices. RR and everything Offense is crap...this gets him fired. New ownership doesn't have any demands this year and resigns to observe. They'll sniff it out.

RR, Mayhew, and the gang will get purged.

Edited August 6, 2023 by TheShredder

[FootballZombie]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

But I wouldn't bury my head in the sand and say "NOPE! I CAN'T HEAR YOU! THIS OL IS NOT BAD! GO AWAY BAD VOICES!" and dismiss the whole thing as cluelessness. 

 

At this point the only option is to go to your happy place.

 

 

If your not throwing hands w/ the churro guy of which you are on a first name basis with over the outrageous pricing structure your doing it wrong.

[MartinC]

8 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Wentz was a finished product whereas Howell is a work in progress.

 

Wentz was a broken product.

[Going Commando]

Joe Tippmann raised eyebrows by killing it in the HoF game.  He's currently third on the Jets' depth chart at C behind McGovern and Schweitzer.  If he plays like this through the rest of the Preseason, he won't stay third string.

 

I bet we could trade for McGovern.

[TheShredder]

2 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

At this point the only option is to go to your happy place.

... got a calf strain scrolling past that pic and my feet started to cramp!

[Skinsinparadise]

7 hours ago, Going Commando said:

Joe Tippmann raised eyebrows by killing it in the HoF game.  He's currently third on the Jets' depth chart at C behind McGovern and Schweitzer.  If he plays like this through the rest of the Preseason, he won't stay third string.

 

I bet we could trade for McGovern.

 

Seemed clear watching Tippman predraft that he might be an even better guard, he has a guard's physique and mentality.

 

Rivera said publicly and beat guys have heard privately they like Gates as a center not so much as a guard.  They clearly targeted Gates in FA.  They signed him quickly and paid him more than twice what the Jets paid for McGovern even though McGovern argubaly is the better pedigreed center.

[RandyHolt]

Its a shame Ron is trying to develop a QB but seems to have not addressed the OL first. Negativity aside, Andy Reid via EB creativity should help mitigate that but for some reason likely PTSD from Turner watching Wentz get sacked 9 times I see Ron trying to make Howell a classic immobile drop back passer. Quick passes work but then I want to see pump fakes of those to get the DL off their feet to get our fan mandated deep shots. Every trick in the book may be needed to slow the DL yes including going hurry up to kill subs.   Here's the thing with hurry up I think some neglect, you don't have to actually run plays faster.  You don't have to rush plays and risk mistakes.  You just need to ditch the huddle and walk up to the LOS and then the D cannot sub in the fresh DL to tee off. Call the play standing at the LOS. Too complicated? Figure it out.  Have a few play calls memorized using hand signals. It's bunk that only Rodgers can catch D subs for free plays. But you can't do that if you never try.

Edited August 6, 2023 by RandyHolt