2023 NFL Draft Watch and Post Thread - The Hangover Special

[MartinC]

13 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

...To PROVE what he's got. I think RRs future is closely tied to Sams success.

Yeah I agree. I think Sams going to start and that Ron needs to win. As Sam goes so does Ron. 

[FrFan]

Jeff Saturday was 6-2  295 out of college, Stromberg 6-3  305. I wish him the same career.

Edited May 2, 2023 by FrFan

[MartinC]

17 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

That is literally the worst thing we could have done. I think Richardson is going to bust hard.

 

Aside from that we would have been a really bad landing spot for him - he needs to time and patience and we are in a ‘must win now’ mode and the urge to play him immediately as a top 10 pick would have been overwhelming. And playing right away of probably the last thing he needs.

[MartinC]

17 minutes ago, FrFan said:

Jeff Saturday was 6-2  295 out of college, Stromberg 6-3  305. I wish him the same career.

 

If we can find the next Peyton Manning to stand behind him it could happen 🙂

[The Consigliere]

On 4/30/2023 at 7:52 AM, Koolblue13 said:

I'm not a Gannon fan, but I really don't like Murray, so I don't blame them.

 

It's probably a bad analogy since their nothing alike, but in a lot of ways, I find Kyler's end results very similar to Kirk Cousins. Both guys have been hugely productive players, that are uniquely talented at producing great year end #'s on a per game basis in particular, but both players have an absolutely hideous track record in the games that matter most, playoff's and head to head matchups with elite teams. Then you can add Kyler's frame which has lead to him getting repeatedly injured.

 

It is the nightmare scenario of finding a good QB, but not a QB good enough to ever make a difference, so you can pile into the lottery again w/the rest of the barren wasteland teams that survive without quality QB play and hope to get lucky (or end up like Buffalo/Miami post Kelly/Marino instead) or simply be satisfied w/a QB unlikely to ever lead you to a conference title game, let alone a super bowl.

 

In some ways, it's worse than having a situation like ours in recent years where we just knew none of our QB's were worth a damn and we should be drafting QB's high every draft, it's a much more nebulous situation. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Who knows if the Richardson part is true.  Grant Paulsen heard they wanted to trade up in the 2nd -- he believes for Avila.  Keim suspected initially it was for Avila but later learned it was for Quan Martin.  But clearly diferent people were given different inside takes.  I trust Keim the most.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[RandyHolt]

53 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

That is literally the worst thing we could have done. I think Richardson is going to bust hard.

Its pretty easy to predict a QB busting. It often comes down to the OC. Will they let him run some or make him a pocket passer day 1 - the old school way of thinking. Time will tell how Richardson fares but at least Indy is trying meanwhile we draft a QB once every 4 years. We are all in on a 5th rounder who the coach didn't even want to start in a meaningless week 17 game.

 

You think it was dumb for Mayhew to eyeball him. I think Mayhew was dumb to target a 170lb corner who I dread seeing in run support or suspect will waste away in bend dont break most pass snaps. Trying to find some middle ground here lol.

Edited May 2, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Est.1974]

 

[Morneblade]

3 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

Its pretty easy to predict a QB busting. It often comes down to the OC. Will they let him run some or make him a pocket passer day 1 - the old school way of thinking. Time will tell how Richardson fares but at least Indy is trying meanwhile we draft a QB once every 4 years. We are all in on a 5th rounder who the coach didn't even want to start in a meaningless week 17 game.

 

You think it was dumb for Mayhew to eyeball him. I think Mayhew was dumb to target a 170lb corner who I dread seeing in run support or suspect will waste away in bend dont break most pass snaps. Trying to find some middle ground here lol.

 

There are some other ways too. 1 year of starting and 53% completion % are 2 that say BUST. I think it was real dumb to think about moving up to #4 in the 1st round for that. I'd take Levis over him, and I don't like Levis at all. Or Hooker. That would be more of a "middle" ground. I don't think you're looking for any, at all.

 

4 hours ago, MartinC said:

 

Aside from that we would have been a really bad landing spot for him - he needs to time and patience and we are in a ‘must win now’ mode and the urge to play him immediately as a top 10 pick would have been overwhelming. And playing right away of probably the last thing he needs.

 

Yep. throwing him out there out there day 1 would be a nightmare. He'll need a couple years to have a chance.

[Warhead36]

What Richardson has going for him is his coach, Shane Steichen, comes from Philly and helped develop Hurts. Now Hurts was a MUCH better passer in college but he had to work on it in the NFL as well. Richardson is a similar type player.

 

The big thing is, in Philly they had a great OL and over time got him receivers like Brown and Smith. We'll see if Indy can replicate that. Their WRs are ass and their OL severely declined last year.

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

Its nice to hear for the handful of us that lobbied to stop ****ing around and draft a QB to hear that we were trying to land Richardson.

 

 

I’m not sure I believe Mike Jones.  I wouldn’t have hated it. Being aggressive to get a QB when you need a QB?  Ok.  It would have depended on cost.  
 

I wouldn’t have minded them trading up to 7 to get a top end tackle either.  
 

But we like to double down on the les important side of the ball. Shrug.  

[FootballZombie]

Richy would have been a wild ride.

Jumping up to 7 would have cost a pretty penny too.

[stoshuaj]

Potentially dumb question so apologies in advance:

 

Who is signing the checks to sign these players?  Is there a particular deadline? Is it incumbent upon DS to sign them or can he just wait it out for the supposed new guy?  Ultimately, what happens if he farts around and pulls more Dan **** w the sale?

 

I know, I know, it’s a done deal blah blah but until the keys are turned over, it ain’t done.  And Dan.

 

*edit* also apologies if this is too close to owner talk in the draft thread but I’m hoping it’s specific enough to rookies to be able to keep the conversation relevant to rookies

Edited May 2, 2023 by stoshuaj

[KDawg]

I disagree absolutely 100% that Richardson needs to sit. In fact, I’d argue most of these rookies who are taken in the first round should 100% be on the field as soon as humanly possible WITHOUT any real competition their first year.

 

They need to play. They don’t get better by riding on the bench. They need to get game reps against NFL defenses and be fully supported by their organization with a plan to be successful. 
 

The Colts are a perfect spot for Richardson. He has all the physical tools and he can run. They have a very good run blocking offensive line. They will run a similar offense to the Eagles except their running back is a MUCH better player than Philly’s. 
 

Supporting Richardson, using his legs and surrounding him with skill sets that aide his growth is a great way to get him up to speed. 
 

In fact, it’s exactly how the Bills developed Allen. Don’t kid yourselves, the Colts are looking to the Eagles and the Bills for Richardson’s development and they’ll be smart to do so. 
 

I’d bet on Richardson finding NFL success.

 

The Colt fanbase is so excited for him. If he gives that stadium reasons to cheer he’s going to get their full support. If that happens, watch out.

[RandyHolt]

2 hours ago, Morneblade said:

 

There are some other ways too. 1 year of starting and 53% completion % are 2 that say BUST. I think it was real dumb to think about moving up to #4 in the 1st round for that. I'd take Levis over him, and I don't like Levis at all. Or Hooker. That would be more of a "middle" ground. I don't think you're looking for any, at all.

 

 

Yep. throwing him out there out there day 1 would be a nightmare. He'll need a couple years to have a chance.

No one here said he should start week 1. That aside, its ok to trot out a guy with 15 NFL passes behind a below avg injury prone OL with a new playbook?

 

No one said we were willing to move up to 4. The story was 8. That costs a lot less.

 

He's raw af everyone knows but he sure fits the bill of the modern day QB. Indy took him at 4 and mocks had him in round 1 so its not a stretch to think people smarter than the best armchair GMs here had no problem taking him. I assume Eric wanted him if the story is true. You wouldn't want our OC to get the QB he wanted?

 

I predict all but 1 QB drafted in this draft will never become top 10 but the bet doesn't pay much. But QB is such an important position you have to throw picks at the position. RR hasnt showed much confidence in Sam long term IMO.

 

Big mobile QBs are all the rage now that OCs have finally ditched their dated pure pocket passer or bust playbooks.  Our 2 QBs affords him to sit all year and is a perfect scenario to battle it out with Sam long term.

Edited May 3, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Warhead36]

10 minutes ago, stoshuaj said:

Potentially dumb question so apologies in advance:

 

Who is signing the checks to sign these players?  Is there a particular deadline? Is it incumbent upon DS to sign them or can he just wait it out for the supposed new guy?  Ultimately, what happens if he farts around and pulls more Dan **** w the sale?

 

I know, I know, it’s a done deal blah blah but until the keys are turned over, it ain’t done.  And Dan.

 

*edit* also apologies if this is too close to owner talk in the draft thread but I’m hoping it’s specific enough to rookies to be able to keep the conversation relevant to rookies

I think there is money allocated to the team for expenses already. Its not like Dan is personally writing checks for say Payne or any FA or draft pick etc. Its essentially money he's already spent.

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

No one here said he should start week 1. That aside, its ok to trot out a guy with 15 NFL passes behind a below avg injury prone OL with a new playbook?

 

No one said to we were willing to move up to 4. The story was 8. That costs a lot less.

 

He's raw af everyone knows but he sure fits the bill of the modern day QB. Indy took him at 4 and mocks had him in round 1 so its not a stretch to think people smarter than the best armchair GMs here had no problem taking him. I assume Eric wanted him if the story is true. You wouldn't want our OC to get the QB he wanted?

 

I predict all but 1 QB drafted in this draft will never become top 10 but the bet doesn't pay much. But QB is such an important position you have to throw picks at the position. RR hasnt showed much confidence in Sam long term IMO.

 

Big mobile QBs are all the rage now that OCs have finally ditched their dated pure pocket passer or bust playbooks.  Our 2 QBs affords him to sit all year and is a perfect scenario and battle it out with Sam long term.

I think he should. In fact, I think sitting a guy who needs game reps is stupid.

 

You drafted him fourth. Get him out there and see what you have.

 

Otherwise wtf was the point?

 

EDIT: Which is also why I don’t think he’d fit in DC and if we traded up for him we’d be astronomically stupid. You need full support, a staff firmly in place for the time being and to be virtually unchallenged year one. With Howell and Brisset having Richardson would have been an absolute disaster.

Edited May 2, 2023 by KDawg

[Warhead36]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

 

EDIT: Which is also why I don’t think he’d fit in DC and if we traded up for him we’d be astronomically stupid. You need full support, a staff firmly in place for the time being and to be virtually unchallenged year one. With Howell and Brisset having Richardson would have been an absolute disaster.

This is why I didn't want Richardson. I think he has a chance to do well in Indy. New coaching staff so they'll stick around along with a respected GM. There won't be any chaos or instability in their staff or FO.

 

Richardson on the other hand if he were to come here would have a completely different FO, coaching staff, heck even ownership in year 2. That kind of instability is a death knell for a young QB. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

This is why I didn't want Richardson. I think he has a chance to do well in Indy. New coaching staff so they'll stick around along with a respected GM. There won't be any chaos or instability in their staff or FO.

 

Richardson on the other hand if he were to come here would have a completely different FO, coaching staff, heck even ownership in year 2. That kind of instability is a death knell for a young QB. 

Him here would be an unmitigated disaster. All of these rumors that we wanted to trade up for him and Quan Martin are frustrating. If they are true, and I stress if, what the heck is the plan? I really dislike our strategies. I can’t stress that enough. It’s just not smart team building or maximization. 
 

If this was year one of Rivera and we didn’t have a young QB who seemingly impressed the current regime Richardson would make sense. It’s not. 
 

I hope those rumors are bull****.

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

I disagree absolutely 100% that Richardson needs to sit. In fact, I’d argue most of these rookies who are taken in the first round should 100% be on the field as soon as humanly possible WITHOUT any real competition their first year.

 

They need to play. They don’t get better by riding on the bench. They need to get game reps against NFL defenses and be fully supported by their organization with a plan to be successful.

 

Absolutely 100% disagree.  Especially for somebody that has bad habits, bad techniques, or just isn't used to processing information at the level/rate needed for NFL football.

 

Under the pressure of a game, players are much more likely to revert to previously learned bad habits and techniques even if they've been working on better ones.  And for people that aren't used to the complexity and speed of an NFL game watching film where they can see the speed and see what was a good decision and a bad decision can help.

 

And we've now seen really in the last two generation of QBs, the best are the ones that sat at least some their rookie year (Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, and its it looking like you can throw Hurts into that mix).  While many of the top QBs have struggles or washed out.

 

Rodgers has talked about the benefits of sitting multiple times.

 

(e.g. https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/bears/ct-aaron-rodgers-mitch-trubisky-rookie-growth-20170926-story.html)

 

I wonder what would have happened to RGIII's and Wentz's career if they were allowed to sit on the bench for even 1/2 a season or more and learn the playbook, work on technique, and work reading defenses.

 

Also if you are a bad team, I suspect it actually lengthens the career of the QB.  That those hits they take playing on a bad team can end up building up an having impacts on their health.  I think it is likely that the likes of Manning, Young, and Aikman had physical issues that caused them to have to retire or their play to deteriorate was partly due to hits they took in their first year when their teams weren't very good and they probably were probably a little slow to process what was happening on the field as they really got familiar with playbooks.

 

It would take a special situation and a special player for me to run a QB out there right from the start.  

[KDawg]

Just now, PeterMP said:

 

Absolutely 100% disagree.  Especially for somebody that has bad habits, bad techniques, or just isn't used to processing information at the level/rate needed for NFL football.

 

Under the pressure of a game, players are much more likely to revert to previously learned bad habits and techniques even if they've been working on better ones.  And for people that aren't used to the complexity and speed of an NFL game watching film where they can see the speed and see what was a good decision and a bad decision can help.

 

And we've now seen really in the last two generation of QBs, the best are the ones that sat at least some their rookie year (Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, and its it looking like you can throw Hurts into that mix).  While many of the top QBs have struggles or washed out.

 

Rodgers has talked about the benefits of sitting multiple times.

 

(e.g. https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/bears/ct-aaron-rodgers-mitch-trubisky-rookie-growth-20170926-story.html)

 

I wonder what would have happened to RGIII's and Wentz's career if they were allowed to sit on the bench for even 1/2 a season or more and learn the playbook, work on technique, and work reading defenses.

 

Also if you are a bad team, I suspect it actually lengthens the career of the QB.  That those hits they take playing on a bad team can end up building up an having impacts on their health.  I think it is likely that the likes of Manning, Young, and Aikman had physical issues that caused them to have to retire or their play to deteriorate was partly due to hits they took in their first year when their teams weren't very good and they probably were probably a little slow to process what was happening on the field as they really got familiar with playbooks.

 

It would take a special situation and a special player for me to run a QB out there right from the start.  

Yup. We disagree. Not much further to discuss here.

[NFC Beast1987]

14 hours ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Jacoby would have to do that but it’s possible he outperforms Sam in camp. If that happens, they are going to go with qb that will win them games. If Sam fails to show that in camp, they aren’t going to go with him.

 

Sam enters camp as QB1 but his performance in camp will tell whether he remains there.  
 

Ron’s #1 job is to win and make the playoffs. He hopes it’s Sam but if Sam doesn’t show him that, he will move on pretty quickly.

 

If Dan was still remaining the owner, he would ride the whole season with Sam. Since Harris should be the owner by the time camp starts, Ron will go with which qb he thinks will win. Sam will be given every chance to be that guy but if he doesn’t show that in camp, no way can he ride with Sam.

I think it's pretty clear Howell will be the starter unless Jacoby is much better than him throughout camp. Looks a lot better for Rivera if we succeed with a young QB who could become the face of the franchise for a decade instilling hope and optimism for the fanbase and he would be a Rivera draft pick. Jacoby might be a great guy and an ok QB but everyone knows he isn't a dynamic QB and we all know his ceiling isn't very high so it doesn't look near as good for Ron if we grind out 9 wins with Jacoby managing games and letting the defense win it as it would with Sam making a playoff push in his first year starting and showing off a higher ceiling and more exciting style of QB play. If Jacoby is slightly better than Sam in camp, Sam is going to start. 

[Morneblade]

14 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

No one here said he should start week 1. That aside, its ok to trot out a guy with 15 NFL passes behind a below avg injury prone OL with a new playbook?

 

Better that than a guy that played on season in college, and wasn't very good.

 

14 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

No one said we were willing to move up to 4. The story was 8. That costs a lot less.

 

It was actually 7, and it's still top 10. Gonna cost a lot for a guy that played 1 year and wasn't very good.

 

14 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

He's raw af everyone knows but he sure fits the bill of the modern day QB. Indy took him at 4 and mocks had him in round 1 so its not a stretch to think people smarter than the best armchair GMs here had no problem taking him. I assume Eric wanted him if the story is true. You wouldn't want our OC to get the QB he wanted?

 

I honestly have no idea what EB wants to do, or if he is going to be any good or not. And I hate what I have seen from Richardson, I think he's going to bust.

 

14 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

I predict all but 1 QB drafted in this draft will never become top 10 but the bet doesn't pay much. But QB is such an important position you have to throw picks at the position. RR hasnt showed much confidence in Sam long term IMO.

 

RR is a defensive coach, and really hasn't shown much of the offensive side of the ball in general. There were better picks to throw at. And after RGIII, I think you need to really look at those picks. Just because you are a great athlete, doesn't mean you'll be a decent QB.

 

 

14 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

Big mobile QBs are all the rage now that OCs have finally ditched their dated pure pocket passer or bust playbooks.  Our 2 QBs affords him to sit all year and is a perfect scenario to battle it out with Sam long term.

 

[BleedBNG]

 

[Est.1974]

Damn the Giants had a great draft.