Broken #1QB. Now who should start?

[RandyHolt]

You know who else is 30 years old. DeAndre Hopkins who is just coming back from suspension.

[zCommander]

4 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Playing Heinicke is punting the season at least as much.

 

Have we forgotten how bad TH was down the stretch last year? There's no reason to believe Heinicke would be able to do any more than Wentz has, but he also lacks the arm that Wentz has to even be a threat to push the ball down the field.

 

At least with Howell there's a purpose to putting him in: you can see how he fares and evaluate him. 

 

That is not how it is done. #2 first then #3. Has there been any coach in history who has gone to their #3 when their #1 has gone down and skipping their #2? 

 

There also no reason to believe TH can't do more than what Wentz has done so far. As for pushing down the field how many times has Wentz done that this year or you just like to keep on repeating what Wentz has done on previous teams but not looking at what is actually happening right now with our team?  Like Jay Gruden said this afternoon when they talking about arm strength he said with Wentz that has been a non-factor because of the OL and with TH coming in it will be basically the same. As in not able to stretch the field like they wanted to do with Wentz and can't. 

 

As for Howell he doesn't have all the reps to be the backup or would already be the backup over TH before the season started. But the fact remains that Ron told Wentz they are taking Howell as a project QB only. He is still a project regardless of how you feel about TH. 

 

3 hours ago, tomwvr said:

If taylor wins games and plays well wentz wont play again even if he comes back

 

You can't bench your starting QB after they are ready to come back from injury. Dak will start when he comes back regardless of how well Cooper Rush is playing. 

 

2 hours ago, evmiii said:

Relax everybody, Taylor size and style of play have almost always resulted in injury so I expect we’ll see Sam when Taylor gets dinged up.

 

How many times was TH injured last year and was out for couple weeks or even a week? Being out due to catching covid-19 doesn't count. I have seen by some the generalization of Taylor is not durable. He played all 16 games last year. Not sure how much more durable people are expecting him to be. Can he still get hurt, yes. He was dropped on the same shoulder twice in the playoff game but he still came back played the whole season last year. 

 

10 hours ago, CommanderCarson said:

@zCommander is the one poster I can think of that legitimately thought Heineke and the resources would have been a good strategy. And he honestly doesn’t look all that wrong in hindsight…

 

Thank you. This is the only reason I wanted to start TH this year and just build for the future and then get our own franchise QB next year while spending time this year building the lines and the secondary. This year's QB class wasn't that good so made more sense to get your QB in the 2023 draft if all possible. 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by zCommander

[London Kev]

6 hours ago, zCommander said:

There also no reason to believe TH can't do more than what Wentz has done so far. As for pushing down the field how many times has Wentz done that this year or you just like to keep on repeating what Wentz has done on previous teams but not looking at what is actually happening right now with our team?  Like Jay Gruden said this afternoon when they talking about arm strength he said with Wentz that has been a non-factor because of the OL and with TH coming in it will be basically the same. As in not able to stretch the field like they wanted to do with Wentz and can't. 

 

This got me thinking, so I thought that I'd compare Wentz's longest completions this season vs Heinicke's longest completions from last season.

I realise that it doesn't really prove anything as it doesn't take air yards, YAC or the opponent into account, but I did it on a whim and can't be bothered to go any deeper into it.

 

Anyway, I found it interesting so thought that I'd share. I also want to add the almost obligatory disclaimer that I'm definitely not a Hiver.

 

[KDawg]

51 minutes ago, London Kev said:

 

This got me thinking, so I thought that I'd compare Wentz's longest completions this season vs Heinicke's longest completions from last season.

I realise that it doesn't really prove anything as it doesn't take air yards, YAC or the opponent into account, but I did it on a whim and can't be bothered to go any deeper into it.

 

Anyway, I found it interesting so thought that I'd share. I also want to add the almost obligatory disclaimer that I'm definitely not a Hiver.

 

 

Yeah, this doesn't prove much.

 

But, I know many think I'm against TH... I'm not. What this proves is Heinicke was able to get the ball to his playmakers and they made plays. That's not a bad trait to have in a QB. If Heinicke had a stronger arm he'd be franchise level with all of his other traits.

 

His problem is that if he gets moved off the spot he struggles to get the ball to his guys on out breaking routes. He can't sit in the pocket and throw a dime to, say, Dyami Brown for a 75 yard TD down the field.

 

I like Heinicke as a backup QB. If the starter were to go down in the middle of the game I think Heinicke is a legit threat to win games.

 

I just think Howell is going to be better.

[Koolblue13]

Heinicke is gonna get broken into pieces playing behind this Oline and I bet the team rallies big time for Howell and we win our way into just missing the playoffs, but a mid round draft pick.

[London Kev]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

 

Yeah, this doesn't prove much.

 

But, I know many think I'm against TH... I'm not. What this proves is Heinicke was able to get the ball to his playmakers and they made plays. That's not a bad trait to have in a QB. If Heinicke had a stronger arm he'd be franchise level with all of his other traits.

 

His problem is that if he gets moved off the spot he struggles to get the ball to his guys on out breaking routes. He can't sit in the pocket and throw a dime to, say, Dyami Brown for a 75 yard TD down the field.

 

I like Heinicke as a backup QB. If the starter were to go down in the middle of the game I think Heinicke is a legit threat to win games.

 

I just think Howell is going to be better.

 

I agree, I think Howell is going to be better as well, a lot better. The question is, is he better right now. I have to imagine that the coaching staff have determined that he isn't due to the fact that he's behind TH on the depth chart.

 

I want to see what we have in Howell as well and would start him if it was my decision. But I'm just an impatient fan and wouldn't face any consequences for my actions.

 

The right thing to do is start Heinicke until he either ****s the bed or we are are mathematically eliminated.

[RandyHolt]

Its funny but predictable to see so many want Howell NOW. I am one of them but I want him in mop up duty. Start getting his feet wet and testing the waters. It pains me that SO many (everyone but me?) think a starting QB can never be taken out of a game for a play, a drive a quarter or a half. That it will destroy the QB or team or season whatever the phobia is. While the worlds greatest ace baseball pitchers get yanked every day of the MLB season. Some days they don't have it and are not ruined forever when they walk off the mound. Its ok to be humbled in life. No, you are not god give me the damn ball. In the football era of mass substitutions its still a no go. Welp football coaches aren't always right it just takes decades for them to change and fans just support what they do since we cant prove otherwise.

 

So with a backup QB, are those same folks that say an undisputed starting QB MUST get every snap no matter what, still hardlining that you gotta also use the backup 100% of the time?  Its my annual prediction wish that our coach revolutionize the game and do it - throw a changeup for a drive down 17-0. Fack with the defensive coordinator who didn't game plan for player X. Admit it we have all seen lessor backup QBs come in and do well out of no where. Unlike baseball you can put your ace right back in again.

 

Not this week - its too soon as we know RR and Turner like Taylor but maybe in a week or 2 esp if Taylor falls on his face.

 

In hockey you have your #1 stud goalie. The backup comes in for a game and posts a shutout. You don't have to use the backup the next game and the starter is no worse for wear. Everyone knows who the starter is and there is no fan or team revolt. Maybe NFL QBs are just frustrated or meltdown prone from being broken down after forced into memorizing 800 page playbooks and still losing half the time.

 

Look at the backup duck he knows the surface is erupting yet again

Edited October 18, 2022 by RandyHolt

[skinny21]

4 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

Yeah, this doesn't prove much.

 

But, I know many think I'm against TH... I'm not. What this proves is Heinicke was able to get the ball to his playmakers and they made plays. That's not a bad trait to have in a QB. If Heinicke had a stronger arm he'd be franchise level with all of his other traits.

 

His problem is that if he gets moved off the spot he struggles to get the ball to his guys on out breaking routes. He can't sit in the pocket and throw a dime to, say, Dyami Brown for a 75 yard TD down the field.

 

I like Heinicke as a backup QB. If the starter were to go down in the middle of the game I think Heinicke is a legit threat to win games.

 

I just think Howell is going to be better.

In some ways, your take on TH might actually be more generous than most… and I agree with all of it (including your belief in Howell).

3 hours ago, London Kev said:

 

I agree, I think Howell is going to be better as well, a lot better. The question is, is he better right now. I have to imagine that the coaching staff have determined that he isn't due to the fact that he's behind TH on the depth chart.

 

I want to see what we have in Howell as well and would start him if it was my decision. But I'm just an impatient fan and wouldn't face any consequences for my actions.

 

The right thing to do is start Heinicke until he either ****s the bed or we are are mathematically eliminated.

Feel the same way here.  Howell is the one I really want to see (even if I like Heinicke, despite his limitations).  I just hope Howell is 1) given a meaningful chance at some point, and 2) can actually put it all together.  He has the tools (would be great if he were 6’5, but whatever), seems to have a good mentality/character, I think the key is going to be - does he have the quick decision-making skills so crucial to the position.  

And of course, he needs an adequate support system around him, just like any qb - a good supporting cast, a HC that believes in him, and an OC that works well with him.  At this moment, I probably have more faith in him than the support system (with the exception of our current receiving weapons).

[NoCalMike]

Heinicke has his strengths, and it isn't that anyone thinks he is going to be a total flop or anything, it's just that the passing game Scott Turner runs is fueled by the kinds of completions Wentz was making against Tennessee,  If the O-line was better and we were seeing those kinds of completions more consistently, I think more fans would understand how drastic the offense will be changed now.  Because thinks looked so mediocre and inconsistent with Wentz, (for many reasons outside of Wentz's control,although yes he gets some blame too) it makes people think that a different QB can come in and change things.

 

What people seem to forget was with Heinicke, a lot of drives would consist of 12-15 plays where they went a total of 50 yards, take 10minutes off the clock, but barely even be in long FG range, because the ball just didn't move very far at any given time a lot of drives. 

[oraphus]

Hey Ron! I hear Russel Wilson could be had for a 7th rounder... last i remember you were ripping hair out because your high offer got denied. 

[mistertim]

13 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

There also no reason to believe TH can't do more than what Wentz has done so far.

 

 

Heinicke got pretty much completely shut down in the latter half of last season when defenses adjusted and figured him out. And that was with a decent OL. He also didn't scramble very much (to the point where the coaches called him out on it publicly). What specific things make you think that now with a way worse OL he'll suddenly do better?

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

Heinicke has his strengths, and it isn't that anyone thinks he is going to be a total flop or anything, it's just that the passing game Scott Turner runs is fueled by the kinds of completions Wentz was making against Tennessee,  If the O-line was better and we were seeing those kinds of completions more consistently, I think more fans would understand how drastic the offense will be changed now.  Because thinks looked so mediocre and inconsistent with Wentz, (for many reasons outside of Wentz's control,although yes he gets some blame too) it makes people think that a different QB can come in and change things.

 

What people seem to forget was with Heinicke, a lot of drives would consist of 12-15 plays where they went a total of 50 yards, take 10minutes off the clock, but barely even be in long FG range, because the ball just didn't move very far at any given time a lot of drives. 

I’m one of the weirdos looking forward to seeing Heinicke in action, but I definitely believe that 1) Wentz is a more talented qb, 2) this was almost a perfect storm against him - unfamiliar offense, an OC without a great feel for play calling, and a porous oline.  I think TH “fits” the offense/team* more as things stand right now.

 

*moving the ball with a bit more consistency, leading to an improved run game and more defensive rest, giving Turner more confidence that things will run as they should (even with the arm talent handcuffs, which I bet he’s super bummed about)

[zCommander]

36 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Heinicke got pretty much completely shut down in the latter half of last season when defenses adjusted and figured him out. And that was with a decent OL. He also didn't scramble very much (to the point where the coaches called him out on it publicly). What specific things make you think that now with a way worse OL he'll suddenly do better?

 

Ron during an interview said he will talk to Taylor after the Chiefs game last year and didn't know why Taylor didn't scramble at all in that lose. Is that really calling out a player though? Looked like more of a concern to me. Maybe Taylor was trying to be more of a pocket passer or maybe that is what Turner wanted him to do. Who knows what Turner thinks and Ron doesn't know. 

 

When did covid-19 hit the team last year? Pretty sure it was towards the end and with almost half of the team out with injuries and covid. Even a really good QB would have had a hard time with no one to play with and would have been figured out. Dallas pass rush was really good last year and Taylor acknowledged that. Heck even this year Wentz said Dallas D was really good. 

 

Do you think the teams have figured out Wentz and have shutdown his ability to stretch the field or is it because of our OL? Wentz can't be totally excused from the lack of OL play because when he has had time he has been mostly inaccurate. Not the version of Wentz we thought we were getting. Taylor was frustrating last year at times and Wentz has been this year. 

 

As for what Taylor can do? It is using his legs more than Wentz has at this point. Even Jay Gruden said Taylor mobility should make the OL a little better whereas Wentz wasn't helping in that matter on some of the plays. I guess we will find out on Sunday if Taylor's skill set will help the OL or not. We can compare notes after that. 

[Dark Acre]

6 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

In hockey you have your #1 stud goalie. The backup comes in for a game and posts a shutout. You don't have to use the backup the next game and the starter is no worse for wear. Everyone knows who the starter is and there is no fan or team revolt. 

Ahhh yes, the old "I like Al", "I like Pat" debate....

[skinsfan93]

Heinicke is much more mobile than Wentz. I hope to see a lot more roll outs and bootlegs behind a suspect line. If we look poor on offense the next couple games, then put in Howell so he can get his feet wet and gain some experience. Putting him in now behind that line is recipe for disaster. 

[JSSkinz]

I feel like Howell can only cause confusion for this FO. To me, there's really nothing Sam can do in a 5 game span that would make me feel comfortable not moving up in the first round and getting a true franchise QB. Now if he we're to take over now and play these last 11 games that would be a solid enough sample size to draw a conclusion but I feel like Sam may have been a wasted pick when it's all said and done.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

No matter who starts, just remember it can always be worse...

 

 

 

[skins island connection]

3 hours ago, skinsfan93 said:

Heinicke is much more mobile than Wentz. I hope to see a lot more roll outs and bootlegs behind a suspect line. If we look poor on offense the next couple games, then put in Howell so he can get his feet wet and gain some experience. Putting him in now behind that line is recipe for disaster. 

 

 One would 'hope' that Turner would give TH more designed roll-outs or at least the opportunity of doing it; thats where he really can break down defenses; but if he tells TH to stay in the pocket and trust the o-line then its all over, and I hope that Turner isn't THAT stupid to trust the line, but with a moron you never know.

This will be an interesting game to watch.

Either:

1} TH doesn't play well or just looks horrible and the urgency of Dan finally lets him put in Howell,

or,

2} TH plays surprisingly good and they win, then everyone goes nucking futs on why he wasn't starting earlier, ES has a meltdown, and as soon as he throws a pick then everyone will call him no good. 

Fans...

[JSSkinz]

6 hours ago, mistertim said:

Heinicke got pretty much completely shut down in the latter half of last season when defenses adjusted and figured him out.

I have no issue with either side of Heine vs Whatever but I think its unfair to compare last years offense to this years.  We have so many more weapons on offense and most are healthy and some (Turner) are just starting to get reps.  Terry was the only decent option for Heine last year once JD missed the last 5 or 6 games.

 

Yes, I'm aware Heine threw hospital balls that got Terry and JD concussed so he needs to not do that but he's no different than any other QB in that the more weapons he has the better the results.

 

 

[skinny21]

29 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

I have no issue with either side of Heine vs Whatever but I think its unfair to compare last years offense to this years.  We have so many more weapons on offense and most are healthy and some (Turner) are just starting to get reps.  Terry was the only decent option for Heine last year once JD missed the last 5 or 6 games.

 

Yes, I'm aware Heine threw hospital balls that got Terry and JD concussed so he needs to not do that but he's no different than any other QB in that the more weapons he has the better the results.

 

 

This week might be tough with Dotson out, and not knowing Logan’s status.  I believe Dyami is dealing with a groin too, but he played on it last week, so…. To your point though, feels like we’re still in decent shape with the 3 backs, Bates and Turner, and Samuel (as well as returning Terry/Sims/Brown - and the latter has developed at least a bit).

 

Not that it matters, but I wouldn’t put JD’s injury on TH.  He caught the ball, took a few steps, then dove to the ground as two guys converged on him.

[RandyHolt]

6 hours ago, Dark Acre said:

Ahhh yes, the old "I like Al", "I like Pat" debate....

Lets go caps. A fellow old tymer - cheers! I kick around over on hfboards.com too. Remember Grubby started our first playoff game our cup year. Yank the starter if needed dont be scared.

 

While many assume Turner will roll out Taylor I wonder why he never did with Carson. Heck even old man Peyton Manning could run those stretch handoffs and be on time. BTW I love the fake stretch handoff PAP. Run it right run it left and get those fat ass DT Running sideline to sideline yes, in the hurry up we won't use more than a play a game.

Edited October 19, 2022 by RandyHolt

[tomwvr]

22 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

That is not how it is done. #2 first then #3. Has there been any coach in history who has gone to their #3 when their #1 has gone down and skipping their #2? 

 

There also no reason to believe TH can't do more than what Wentz has done so far. As for pushing down the field how many times has Wentz done that this year or you just like to keep on repeating what Wentz has done on previous teams but not looking at what is actually happening right now with our team?  Like Jay Gruden said this afternoon when they talking about arm strength he said with Wentz that has been a non-factor because of the OL and with TH coming in it will be basically the same. As in not able to stretch the field like they wanted to do with Wentz and can't. 

 

As for Howell he doesn't have all the reps to be the backup or would already be the backup over TH before the season started. But the fact remains that Ron told Wentz they are taking Howell as a project QB only. He is still a project regardless of how you feel about TH. 

 

 

You can't bench your starting QB after they are ready to come back from injury. Dak will start when he comes back regardless of how well Cooper Rush is playing. 

 

 

How many times was TH injured last year and was out for couple weeks or even a week? Being out due to catching covid-19 doesn't count. I have seen by some the generalization of Taylor is not durable. He played all 16 games last year. Not sure how much more durable people are expecting him to be. Can he still get hurt, yes. He was dropped on the same shoulder twice in the playoff game but he still came back played the whole season last year. 

 

 

Thank you. This is the only reason I wanted to start TH this year and just build for the future and then get our own franchise QB next year while spending time this year building the lines and the secondary. This year's QB class wasn't that good so made more sense to get your QB in the 2023 draft if all possible. 

 

I seriously doubt we will see Wentz start another game for us. If they are 6-4 when he comes back the argument is he cant win and the replacement did better and if we are 2-8 the argument will

be the season is over its time for howell

[SkinsFTW]

57 minutes ago, tomwvr said:

 if we are 2-8 the argument will

be the season is over its time for howell

 

If they are 2-8 that prime Paloffs is now territory and you know that RR and even DD would agree.

[MIB__KEVIN]

This is so sad. We wait all off-season to watch this team make a run and by week 7 we are already talking about tanking season for picks and backup QB’s and new head coach. Who’s sick and tired of this routine?? 

[RandyHolt]

If Taylor somehow dominates behind the porous offensive line that shattered Carsons confidence and he gets us back to 500 do you auto give the keys back to Carson in a month?

 

Jumping the gun here but Taylor won 4 games in a row last year. We can come up with every excuse to not give him credit and its fine but every year when we are on full tilt we win a few games no one saw coming before getting our hearts pulled out proper. We all know we never go 2-14 we have to be mediocrish to continue to screw ourselves in our never ending quest to draft the wrong top tier first round QB.

 

"Someone has to put their plant foot down and that foot is me" - Dean Vernon Heinicke

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by RandyHolt