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Broken #1QB. Now who should start?

SlobberknockerSkinsFan

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panel

panel

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Posted (edited)

We have seen this Franchise ruin young QBs by playing them too early, or behind a bad lines (Haskins, RG3, Campbell, Ramsey).  Our best QBs have developed when slowly giving them experience (Thiesmann, Rypien, Cousins).  Throwing Howell to the wolves will not help him long term.  If he plays a game or 2, that is fine, but not an extended amount of time.  Also, if we play Howell, and he plays like Wentz, or worse than Wentz, how to we evaluate that?  Is he bad?  Is the team Bad?  We know what Heinicke is, so playing him lets us evaluate Wentz better as well. 

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KDawg

KDawg

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

 

Taylor knows Turners offense more than Wentz (I would imagine) and Howell. We are not mathematically eliminated yet from the playoffs. It doesn't matter how you feel about TH or Howell. You play the backup when your #1 goes down. You don't start building for the future after only 6 games regardless if you think the season is done. KDawg you are a football coach and you have already given up on your own team in a sense. 

 

Yes I would like to see Howell as well but you simply can't. But if TH doesn't move the offense or gets hurts then that is when you insert Howell. It is that simple and the proper steps to take. 


I’m not sure what me being a coach and the idea that this team isn’t very good has to do with anything. If you’re implying I give up on the teams I coach, you’re wrong, and it’s quite frankly a silly thing to suggest. 
 

But I also haven’t given up. That’s why I want to see Howell over Heinicke. Assuming Howell can operate the offense in a satisfactory capacity, of course.

 

I have a feeling you didn’t read the post I made after the one you quoted here, but it adds some perspective to my thoughts.

 

Quite frankly I feel that while Heinicke can come in and win a few games, I think that move ultimately remains fruitless because I don’t think he has the arm talent to carry this team on his back and right the ship. But he is a spark plug and can probably help the team win a few. But that will eventually catch up to him. 
 

I’m higher on Howell than many here, too, based on his college film. I don’t think he’s a fifth round caliber player (though he is, as that is where he was taken…)

 

I had him rated as a back end first rounder, it would be silly for me to prefer the undrafted guy who doesn’t have arm talent over a guy I thought should have been a first rounder, wouldn’t it?

 

But if he isn’t ready then he isn’t ready and it’s obvious who plays. And by ready I mean that he can run the offense. Not that he’s comfortable. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Peregrine said:

???

 

Thats not even close to how any actual player in that lockerroom that sees them everyday would view it.  The team is not just 3 QBs.  Its 53 guys, at different positions, and they are all going to be pissed if you had it to the rookie who has never done anything or earned it and may play bad enough to cost them future contracts, over the guy they have been in the trenches with.  To act like Rivera doesnt know basic math and that #3 comes after #2 is just.....

 

I wonder if all thats left of the fanbase is insanity, as this page also includes the suggestion you just bring in Howell for a few plays a game to throw the ball downfield.


What? First, are you IN the locker room? If not, you have no idea what they think. The team itself went after Wentz because they wanted a guy with arm talent. McLaurin said he signed the extension because of a guy with arm talent was the QB. Newsflash, Heinicke doesn’t have arm strength.

 

Heinicke as the backup is the only way to justify keeping him. And, if the team really does prefer him, fine, play him. Or if Howell is struggling in practice and not looking the part then yes, you have to go with him.

 

We don’t know what’s going on. This whole thread is conjecture. 
 

It’s possible Ron plays TH even if Howell is ready. It’s possible Ron plays TH because Howell isn’t ready. It’s possible the team itself is impressed with Howell and wants to see him.

 

The entire premise of this thread hinges on both QBs being able to operate the offense with some sort of positive ability. If Howell can’t, then he can’t play and it’s a silly discussion. 
 

Like I said, I think Rivera starts Heinicke regardless. 
 

It’s cool if you disagree with me, but no one’s opinion is fact and, quite frankly, none of us know the read on how the locker room actually feels about this. You could be completely right and Heinicke has the full support of the locker room. Or Howell could have impressed them and have some intrigue. 
 

We don’t know. 
 

4 hours ago, panel said:

We have seen this Franchise ruin young QBs by playing them too early, or behind a bad lines (Haskins, RG3, Campbell, Ramsey).  Our best QBs have developed when slowly giving them experience (Thiesmann, Rypien, Cousins).  Throwing Howell to the wolves will not help him long term.  If he plays a game or 2, that is fine, but not an extended amount of time.  Also, if we play Howell, and he plays like Wentz, or worse than Wentz, how to we evaluate that?  Is he bad?  Is the team Bad?  We know what Heinicke is, so playing him lets us evaluate Wentz better as well. 


If we finish badly we are taking a QB in ‘23. So if Howell plays poorly or gets shellshocked we will likely have a new guy regardless.

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repo_4

repo_4

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On 10/15/2022 at 10:49 AM, Chump Bailey said:

Sam Howell. It makes zero sense to play TH over him at this point. Find out what we have in Sam, now, who I think could easily take this team by the reins and win or waste more time and capital next year playing TH. Sam Howell and a emerging Brian Robinson has the potential to be a true game-changer, even for this snakebit damn franchise.

 And that is the reason we will see exactly that. Because it makes zero sense...

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zCommander

zCommander

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, KDawg said:


I’m not sure what me being a coach and the idea that this team isn’t very good has to do with anything. If you’re implying I give up on the teams I coach, you’re wrong, and it’s quite frankly a silly thing to suggest.

 

Okay just making sure. Ron is also not going to give up and punt the season as it wouldn't be fair to the other 52 guys on the team. That was my point. You said put in Howell I said you can't. A coach can't do that to his other players no matter how much we think the season is over. 

 

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KDawg

KDawg

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2 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Okay just making sure. Ron is also not going to give up and punt the season as it wouldn't be fair to the other 52 guys on the team. That was my point. You said put in Howell I said you can't. A coach can't do that to his other players no matter how much we think the season is over. 

 

 

Unless, of course, the other players would rather see Howell.

 

Are you in the locker room? No? Then we have no way of knowing, do we?

 

And quite frankly, I don't need you to make sure of anything that I do as a coach. And doing so is snide and offensive. I don't believe Heinicke is the guy to help with anything. Maybe the players do. I'm not there. But don't try to attack me and what I do because I don't agree with your take on Heinicke. We are both outside perspectives here. We don't know ****. 

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zCommander

zCommander

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3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Unless, of course, the other players would rather see Howell.

 

Are you in the locker room? No? Then we have no way of knowing, do we?

 

And quite frankly, I don't need you to make sure of anything that I do as a coach. And doing so is snide and offensive. I don't believe Heinicke is the guy to help with anything. Maybe the players do. I'm not there. But don't try to attack me and what I do because I don't agree with your take on Heinicke. We are both outside perspectives here. We don't know ****. 

 

Sorry wasn't an attack at all and I wouldn't attack you on purpose since I know you know hell of a lot more than I do. Again I am sorry you saw it that way. It was more of if you are not going to give up on your guys neither will Ron. To me what you said implied giving up. There was really no mal intent there. It is like if you said hey you are an IT guy would you give up on a project, for example. I would be like hell no. I personally wouldn't take that as an offensive at all. Again sorry if you took what I said was offensive. 

 

No I am not in the locker room but that was not the point. It was about what the coach needs to do. TH has more experience than Howell right now. That would be the right thing for the coach to do here was the point regardless of we think the season is lost. That was my point. I also clarified by saying yes I would rather see Howell but that would show the other players that Ron has punted the season. Pretty sure that would look really bad for the coach and the team. 

 

 

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KDawg

KDawg

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1 minute ago, zCommander said:

 

Sorry wasn't an attack at all and I wouldn't attack you on purpose since I know you know hell of a lot more than I do. Again I am sorry you saw it that way. It was more of if you are not going to give up on your guys neither will Ron. To me what you said implied giving up. There was really no mal intent there. It is like if you said hey you are an IT guy would you give up on a project, for example. I would be like hell no. I personally wouldn't take that as an offensive at all. Again sorry if you took what I said was offensive. 

 

No I am not in the locker room but that was not the point. It was about what the coach needs to do. TH has more experience than Howell right now. That would be the right thing for the coach to do here was the point regardless of we think the season is lost. That was my point. I also clarified by saying yes I would rather see Howell but that would show the other players that Ron has punted the season. Pretty sure that would look really bad for the coach and the team. 

 

 

 

And why do you think playing Howell shows the players he's punting on the season?

 

Because Howell has arm strength? It doesn't make sense to think playing him hurts this team UNLESS he is struggling with the playbook, isn't improving and looking lost in practice. If that's the case, playing him IS punting on the season and the wrong move.

 

If he has any semblance of ability to run the offense, however, he brings a similar set of skills to Heinicke, minus the playbook knowledge, and he has an arm in the ilk of Wentz. He's a mix of the two of those two guys. 

 

 

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zCommander

zCommander

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11 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

And why do you think playing Howell shows the players he's punting on the season?

 

Because Howell has arm strength? It doesn't make sense to think playing him hurts this team UNLESS he is struggling with the playbook, isn't improving and looking lost in practice. If that's the case, playing him IS punting on the season and the wrong move.

 

If he has any semblance of ability to run the offense, however, he brings a similar set of skills to Heinicke, minus the playbook knowledge, and he has an arm in the ilk of Wentz. He's a mix of the two of those two guys. 

 

 

 

The coach has to go to the 2nd before he can go to the 3rd to not send the wrong message. Now if I am Ron I would play TH for a game and see how it goes. If nothing is better than you punt TH for Howell. With our OL I don't think arm strength is a factor right now. We already saw that with Wentz. You still need time to throw down the field and need more time for the player to go down the field as well. Our OL is not going to allow Howell to do that. But, on the flip side, his mobility might open things up though and buy him some more time. So I am definitely intrigued on that part though and would love to see that.

 

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Jds0912

Jds0912

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Posted

Howell or TH, it doesn’t matter. Our team is going to look so much better with Wentz not under center. Howell looked incredible in preseason and I believe TH will be better with a whole year of experience and better weapons. I would give TH 4 games to get us back to .500. If he fails then give Howell the rest of the season. I just have a feeling the team and coaching staff aren’t as bad as they look right now. This is the most excited I’ve felt all season. 

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Peregrine

Peregrine

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22 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

And why do you think playing Howell shows the players he's punting on the season?

 

Because Howell has arm strength? It doesn't make sense to think playing him hurts this team UNLESS he is struggling with the playbook, isn't improving and looking lost in practice. If that's the case, playing him IS punting on the season and the wrong move.

 

If he has any semblance of ability to run the offense, however, he brings a similar set of skills to Heinicke, minus the playbook knowledge, and he has an arm in the ilk of Wentz. He's a mix of the two of those two guys. 

 

 

Because playing Howell is punting the season, regardless of your youtube crush on him.

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KDawg

KDawg

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3 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Because playing Howell is punting the season, regardless of your youtube crush on him.

 

Well reasoned argument. You're 2 for 2 so far in coming up with solid takes that appropriately communicate your point.

 

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KDawg

KDawg

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Just now, MrJL said:

 

because if he was ready to play he'd be second string

 

Not entirely true. 

 

If Wentz got injured in the middle of the game it was always a smarter decision to insert Heinicke, in my opinion. Coming in mid-game for an experienced vet that acts as a spark plug is exactly why you want a guy like TH around. He is a sparkplug and a guy who will know how to handle the adversity of a QB going down mid game.

 

With preparation time, he may (or may not, I don't know the answer, I'm not there) be the answer.

 

But Howell may be a better option with that prep time as well. 

 

I am looking at this from a "both can play" standpoint for both situations.

 

For me, a mid game QB change the advantage is Heinicke.

 

For me, a fresh week with prep time, the advantage is Howell.

 

If Howell isn't doing well in practice and not grasping it behind the scenes, the answer is Heinicke. I doubt that's the case. But I don't know, so it could be.

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Jds0912

Jds0912

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2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I feel like the “let Heini play” until there’s 4 or 5 games left crew are going to change their tune after a game or two.  It’s easy to want a switch when the offense has been as abysmal as it’s been.  But per usual, we always find out it could be worse.

If he loses 2 in a row and doesn’t look significantly better than Wentz then put Howell in. He might win two in a row and get us into playoff contention. 

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RandyHolt

RandyHolt

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Posted

Every year something unpredictable happens. Like we win 3 games in a row after we all tapped out for the season and someone starts a thread showing we are projected to draft the #2 overall after week 7 which gets ruined ending up 6-10.

 

Wentz is a terrible fit for a decimated OL but I am not convinced a 5th round rookie is any better of a fit. I lobby for using all QBs on game day but am fine to give Heiny the reigns for a week. He earned it for that one time he dove at the pylon successfully and also made Brady sweat more than our DL ever could. Sure it was offset by his faux Lambo leap but we'll cut him slack with his childhood dream turned nightmare.

 

I boldly predict suddenly our OL looks much better in pass pro vs Green Bay AND that Ron may have a tough decision when Carson comes back.

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skinny21

skinny21

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Posted

With the (huge) caveat that I don’t really know how life in the NFL really works, if I were RR, I’d bring in the captains and get their take on the qbs.  I have to assume they have a bit more of a sense of the pulse of the lockerroom.  Doesn’t mean I automatically heed their thinking of course.

 

Secondly, I’d start running a slimmed down offense with Howell and the 2nd stringers in practice (catering a plan to him), as opposed to having him run that week’s gameplan for Heinicke.  I believe Bullock when he talks about some of the issues Howell had in the offseason, but that’s also when a rookie would be overwhelmed by the entirety of the playbook (let alone adjusting to the NFL in general).  Evaluate Howell’s practice and Heinicke’s game this week and go from there.  Essentially, I’d be trying to hedge my bets.

13 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I feel like the “let Heini play” until there’s 4 or 5 games left crew are going to change their tune after a game or two.  It’s easy to want a switch when the offense has been as abysmal as it’s been.  But per usual, we always find out it could be worse.

Man, my initial thought was can it really get much worse (specifically scoring-wise)?  But then…. Washington.  :(

 

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