Broken #1QB. Now who should start?

[hail2skins]

I'm far from a TH fanboy, but our wretched owner saying "we finally have a QB!" when the guy who played the whole previous season for you is still on the roster was so tone deaf. I'm skeptical TH is anything near a long term solution, but Snyders idiocy gives me a reason to root for him to succeed.

[NoCalMike]

I am not part of the Hive, but I think starting Heinicke for now is the right thing to do because it will only be Week 7.  Whether Howell could come in and win games or not is up in the air, but I don't think there is the expectation he would and that it would be primarily more about him getting experience.  It is a little premature in the season to do that. 2-4 isn't the greatest record, but it is hardly a record that eliminates the team from turning things around. I know it is ever so more unlikely considering what the rest of the division is doing, and I am not saying I personally believe the team is going to take any big strides to right the ship, but just mathematically speaking 2-4 is way too soon to make a move to Howell, because lets say you do go straight to Howell and the team loses the next few games and they are at 7-8 losses when Wentz is ready to return.....what do you do at that point with the season actually mathematically being over for all intents & purposes?

 

We already know more or less what the coaches feel about Heinicke, so that tells me if they actually thought Howell was ready, he would be starting against the Packers, however, what is going to happen is he will now be active for games, and who he practices against during the week is going to change, so he is also going to get better development just from that alone, and if the coaches see things from him against better resistance, then who knows what could happen, especially with Heinicke not being the most durable QB himself. 

Edited October 17, 2022 by NoCalMike

[RandyHolt]

Curious if anyone heard reports about Hein's self proclaimed increased arm strength or mechanics in camp.

 

A good noodle arm QB can still anticipate or loft and complete deep passes. Heck I think Colt McCoy is still out there collecting checks. We all love the deep pass but it happens so damn rarely even with a strong arm QB. How about this theory i just cooked.

 

Having a noodle arm mobile QB with no pass pro can complete more deep balls than a strong arm immobile statue with no pass pro. Scott just has to roll him out and let him use his wheels to buy time.

Edited October 17, 2022 by RandyHolt

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

49 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

When?  

Week 2.

 

There is no saving this season.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, RandyHolt said:

Curious if anyone heard reports about Hein's self proclaimed increased arm strength or mechanics in camp.

 

A good noodle arm QB can still anticipate or loft and complete deep passes. Heck I think Colt McCoy is still out there. We all love the deep pass but it happens so damn rarely even with a strong arm QB. How about this theory i just cooked.

 

Having a noodle arm mobile QB with no pass pro can complete more deep balls than a strong arm immobile statue with no pass pro.

I’m not sure how much a guy can really do to increase arm strength, approaching age 30.

 

It’s not just about the deep ball though, or how far he can heave it down the field.  There’s just a lot of throws defenses don’t have to account for with Taylor, hence every team getting closer and closer to the LOS as the season went on, and with that his performances got worse and worse. 
 

The Hive tends to believe that was primarily due to roster shakeup and missing pieces.  I expect to see the same defensive strategies even with more folks healthy.

[NoCalMike]

One thing is for sure, if Heinicke takes the same beating Wentz has taken, we will be seeing Howell sooner than later.

[RandyHolt]

17 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’m not sure how much a guy can really do to increase arm strength, approaching age 30.

 

It’s not just about the deep ball though, or how far he can heave it down the field.  There’s just a lot of throws defenses don’t have to account for with Taylor, hence every team getting closer and closer to the LOS as the season went on, and with that his performances got worse and worse. 
 

The Hive tends to believe that was primarily due to roster shakeup and missing pieces.  I expect to see the same defensive strategies even with more folks healthy.

Focusing on your 2nd paragraph - how would you explain the successes (albeit limited) he has had?  Tampa's D was no slouch in his playoff game IIRC. Green Bay was a stout opponent and he held his own until his Lambo flop. Solid run game. Gamer. His wheels.  He had 4 consecutive wins last year. Our OL had a big hand in that but still it was us!

 

Conversely, with Wentz teams don't have to account for outs or less so quick slants. Who also dont have to account for his cement feet.

 

My concern is Hive getting our WRs clobbered trying to force immediate stuff in slow/late. I think we are going to see a run heavy approach and have him be Mr Game Manager. What will JDR do to support that. Call off the aggressive rush of late play bend don't break and milk the clock and go for a low scoring games to desperately hope to only be down a score late and try for the late win.

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by RandyHolt

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Focusing on your 2nd paragraph - how would you explain the successes (albeit limited) he has had? 

I’d have to go back and look at those games to determine that.  My guess is the unknown factor played a role and teams weren’t loading up the box like they did late in the season.  As the season went on, particularly after the first Dallas game, every teams defensive game plan was to bring the entire defense closer to the LOS, jam the receivers after the snap and attack.  It worked like a charm and Heineke/Turner had no answers.  I’m not sure if you recall but Heine was gushing on and on about the Cowboys defense like they were the 85 Bears, but all they really did is what I described above.  
 

I have zero confidence that Turner can draw anything up to counter that.

[skinsmania123]

27 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Curious if anyone heard reports about Hein's self proclaimed increased arm strength or mechanics in camp.

Yes, it was self-proclaimed. Said he went to a specialist in LA to try and increase him arm strength and mechanics.  Okay. I guess we will see. I just don't like going back to him. And if other teams can start their rookies against average O lines so can we.

[Warhead36]

24 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It’s not just about the deep ball though, or how far he can heave it down the field.  There’s just a lot of throws defenses don’t have to account for with Taylor, hence every team getting closer and closer to the LOS as the season went on, and with that his performances got worse and worse. 
 

Exactly. Its not about being able to throw 50 yard bombs. Its about zipping in those 15-25 yard intermediate passes to the outer edges of the field. Heinicke simply can't execute those.

 

On top of that, people forget he's actually pretty terrible in terms of accuracy as well. How often did he overthrow open receivers or get our guys head hunted in the middle of the field?

 

You thought this offense was bad with Wentz...just wait till you see it with Heinicke.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Exactly. Its not about being able to throw 50 yard bombs. Its about zipping in those 15-25 yard intermediate passes to the outer edges of the field. Heinicke simply can't execute those.

 

On top of that, people forget he's actually pretty terrible in terms of accuracy as well. How often did he overthrow open receivers or get our guys head hunted in the middle of the field?

 

You thought this offense was bad with Wentz...just wait till you see it with Heinicke.

All of this.

 

The middle of the Oline escorting defenders directly into him isn’t going to help the lack of arm/accuracy either.  When TH has clean feet, and can give it everything he has - he can put a little mustard on it.  That’s just not something this OL gives a QB very often.

[Jds0912]

11 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’d have to go back and look at those games to determine that.  My guess is the unknown factor played a role and teams weren’t loading up the box like they did late in the season.  As the season went on, particularly after the first Dallas game, every teams defensive game plan was to bring the entire defense closer to the LOS, jam the receivers after the snap and attack.  It worked like a charm and Heineke/Turner had no answers.  I’m not sure if you recall but Heine was gushing on and on about the Cowboys defense like they were the 85 Bears, but all they really did is what I described above.  
 

I have zero confidence that Turner can draw anything up to counter that.

It worked like a charm bc we had no talent at wr, that has nothing to do with qb. If you’re playing a team who’s receivers can’t beat press coverage and man coverage then the obvious gameplan is to stack the box with 8 players and not have to worry about getting beat through the air. I wouldn’t personally stack the box if I have to account for Terry, Samuel, and Dotson. You’re asking to get beat off the los. And you don’t have to be able to throw the ball 65+ yards to complete “deep” passes. I don’t buy the theory that teams figured him out by stacking the box. They just figured out that we had terrible receivers. 

[MariusVT]

With the way the rest of the division is playing, I'd argue this season is already lost given the way the commodes are playing so it doesn't really matter who starts.

[CobraCommander]

11 minutes ago, MariusVT said:

With the way the rest of the division is playing, I'd argue this season is already lost given the way the commodes are playing so it doesn't really matter who starts.

Truly a lost season. I'd won't be surprised when we get swept by our division rivals. Pathetic when you think that this is year 3. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

17 minutes ago, Jds0912 said:

It worked like a charm bc we had no talent at wr, that has nothing to do with qb. If you’re playing a team who’s receivers can’t beat press coverage and man coverage then the obvious gameplan is to stack the box with 8 players and not have to worry about getting beat through the air. I wouldn’t personally stack the box if I have to account for Terry, Samuel, and Dotson. You’re asking to get beat off the los. And you don’t have to be able to throw the ball 65+ yards to complete “deep” passes. I don’t buy the theory that teams figured him out by stacking the box. They just figured out that we had terrible receivers. 

They’ve been jamming guys at the LOS and stacking the box against Wentz and it’s worked  - why would they stop doing that now for a guy who poses zero threat to hit the deep ball, or even intermediate routes near the sidelines?

 

This is why I’ve never bought into the idea of adding weapons for TH, it’s just a waste of resources.

 

The way you tell it, we should expect immediate and dramatic improvement when Heineke starts on Sunday.

[Rex Tomb]

4 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

Truly a lost season. I'd won't be surprised when we get swept by our division rivals. Pathetic when you think that this is year 3. 

This season was going to be measured by wins, don’t forget. Not very good (in my best Coach Gibbs voice).

[CommanderCarson]

Who the hell is the hive? I don’t see hardly any posts in here proclaiming Heineke to be some god send. It’s like a group arguing against themselves it’s so friggin confusing to me!

 

@zCommander is the one poster I can think of that legitimately thought Heineke and the resources would have been a good strategy. And he honestly doesn’t look all that wrong in hindsight…

 

You don’t score 10 point in the first half in 5 straight contests if you are a good QB. You just dont. How does Heineke do worse than that? It’s almost statistically impossible. 

[NeverSurrender]

I’m good with either option TBH.  We know we can win games with TH but I do want to see what we have in Howell.  I just hope the Oline play improves.

[Jds0912]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

They’ve been jamming guys at the LOS and stacking the box against Wentz and it’s worked  - why would they stop doing that now for a guy who poses zero threat to hit the deep ball, or even intermediate routes near the sidelines?

 

This is why I’ve never bought into the idea of adding weapons for TH, it’s just a waste of resources.

 

The way you tell it, we should expect immediate and dramatic improvement when Heineke starts on Sunday.

I’m not saying teams haven’t been doing that to Wentz also but it’s not like an every down thing like it was in that final stretch last year with TH. From what I saw, Taylor was having a decent season until Thomas and Mckissick got hurt. Those two guys were mismatches against man coverage, which forced defenses to mix it up and play a little more zone. Once they went down defenses knew they could play man across the field and nothing could be done about it. I love Terry but he’s not even that great at beating man coverage. It’s showed at times this year that our receivers can beat man coverage. Carson’s made some great throws, but TH could make those throws too. Carson just doesn’t read the defense as quick as th and he’s more inaccurate. Yes I do believe it will be a huge difference with Taylor in there. I think it could possibly be an even bigger difference with Howell. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

Who the hell is the hive? I don’t see hardly any posts in here proclaiming Heineke to be some god send. It’s like a group arguing against themselves it’s so friggin confusing to me!

 

That’s the neat part about it all.  The Hive generally puts out a disclaimer that they know he’s not a god send, and most likely only the best backup QB in the world.  But then they go on and on describing his play as anything but pedestrian.  Touting that he’s super mobile, doesn’t take sacks, great at reading defenses, and the list goes on.  If he was really that great at all that stuff, he’d be pretty close to a god send for this team.  This is just classic backupitis when the offense can’t get anything going with the starter, guys start convincing themselves the backup is the answer.

[Jds0912]

8 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

Who the hell is the hive? I don’t see hardly any posts in here proclaiming Heineke to be some god send. It’s like a group arguing against themselves it’s so friggin confusing to me!

 

@zCommander is the one poster I can think of that legitimately thought Heineke and the resources would have been a good strategy. And he honestly doesn’t look all that wrong in hindsight…

 

You don’t score 10 point in the first half in 5 straight contests if you are a good QB. You just dont. How does Heineke do worse than that? It’s almost statistically impossible. 

I was also saying we’d be better off going with TH + rookie this year instead of getting Wentz or someone like him. I stand by that. Doesn’t mean we think he’s our franchise qb though. 

[DJHJR86]

4 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

How does Heineke do worse than that? It’s almost statistically impossible. 

 

 

He played terrible in this game.  A lot of 3rd and longs that didn't get converted.  

[Renegade7]

11 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

Who the hell is the hive? I don’t see hardly any posts in here proclaiming Heineke to be some god send. It’s like a group arguing against themselves it’s so friggin confusing to me!

 

@zCommander is the one poster I can think of that legitimately thought Heineke and the resources would have been a good strategy. And he honestly doesn’t look all that wrong in hindsight…

 

You don’t score 10 point in the first half in 5 straight contests if you are a good QB. You just dont. How does Heineke do worse than that? It’s almost statistically impossible. 

 

See your join date is March 19th...so you must be new here...

[DJHJR86]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The Hive generally puts out a disclaimer that they know he’s not a god send, and most likely only the best backup QB in the world.  But then they go on and on describing his play as anything but pedestrian.  Touting that he’s super mobile, doesn’t take sacks, great at reading defenses, and the list goes on.  If he was really that great at all that stuff, he’d be pretty close to a god send for this team.

 

Where are these posts?  

[RandyHolt]

Quietly I think every single poster here knows one way that a 30 year old can increase strength. But if you cannot figure it out I am not going to spell it out.