The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[FootballZombie]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Kurt is one of the smartest QBs of all time, and he knows what he's talking about.  He's not wrong.  

 

I can barely watch the college game.  It's infuriating.  

 

I get ya, I don't watch it either. The only time I stomach it is when I have to evaluate the small handful of guys I look at in a given year... and I am not talking a Boban sized handful either.

 

 

34 minutes ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

Warning: The following is not for the feint of heart. I assume no responsibility for what happens to anyone courageous enough to actually watch this. 

 

It was not THAT bad.

 

They echoed a lot of the things we have all talked about, and they really hit the point that the separation between Maye and Daniels is not great enough that you would blanket take one guy over the other. You would want information about the scheme and offense our team is running and them match the QB who projects to be better in that scheme. I can't agree w/ that enough. 

 

There is no universe where I would take one guy over the other everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

If I knew for a fact that we were gonna run something like Ben Johnson's O that excelled in a lot of the passes we have seen from Maye, then by all means I'd shade towards Maye.

 

If I knew for a fact we were recreating Kliff's O from Ariz with Kyler or Johnson's(Philly) offense with Hurts, by all means I'd shade towards Jayden.

 

But without that info, I don't know which way to shade, and even if old habits are hard to change and DNA is DNA, I'll at least humor or give the new offensive staff the benefit of the doubt when they say things may not line up with what they have done with the past. 

 

[zCommander]

3 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

The play you posted wasn't an example of an on time throw to a dominant first read receiver running wide open up the seam.  It was a scramble where Howell created an off script play by extending it and allowing Downs to uncover late.

 

But if you were trying to argue that I'm wrong and that it is something that readily translates to the NFL, then that argument wouldn't make sense either, because the clip you posted was from Howell in college.

 

And even if what Howell did in that clip was a 1:1 match of the play that Daniels made, and you were arguing that it could be a demonstration of elite NFL prospect play, that wouldn't be cogent either because Howell was not an elite NFL prospect and doesn't set that standard.

 

I just happen to stumble on that clip before reading your post and saw in that play there was no safety help. It was close enough for me from a QB in college before he got to the NFL.  If you watch the clips from last year of Howell he was doing many of the things he did in college, some of the good stuff that he was able to translate to the NFL. It has nothing to do with standard but the ability of a said QB to take some of the talent they have in college to the NFL. 

 

I was just hung up on your, it doesn't translate to the NFL bit. Why do we even go back and forth on these prospects if it doesn't even going to translate to the NFL? 

[88Comrade2000]

2 hours ago, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

Apologies if it's been said, but has any QB of note opted out of the combine drills?

You won’t hear anything until combine starts but I would think at least one and maybe more, saying wait until

my pro day.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Destino]

Was there any doubt the bears were taking Caleb? I thought that was fairly evident. Justin Fields QB numbers are garbage, despite the media oddly fawning over the guy. If you really want to get a shock look at his sack% and compare it to a certain QB you know that recently set a sack record. 

[FootballZombie]

Caleb was always going to CHI.

 

Fine by me too. The football complex rates him as unquestioned best QB prospect but I put him on the same tier as the other 2. 

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

Lots of games are unwatchable mismatches. But there are games between good teams that are a great watch and the playoffs are gold.

 

Bowl games need to be binned IMO especially when the playoffs expand.

Even with expanded playoffs next year , they aren’t getting rid of all those unnecessary bowls.

[MartinC]

4 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Even with expanded playoffs next year , they aren’t getting rid of all those unnecessary bowls.

I know. They should but there are probably TV contracts and money reasons why they don’t.

[Conn]

1 hour ago, NOLA2DC said:

We disagree, so there is no need to get into spect attributes. Overall, I think he is a better and playmaker/difference than Maye. That's my opinion, and he's proven that against better competition. I am aware that top QBs currently have gone to Texas Tech, Louisville, Oregon, North Dakota St. (or wherever Allen went), LSU, and I forgot where Stafford went. So there is no correlation of where you play in college, just like I'm sure Maye will probably be better than previous UNC QBs😀.

I’m not trying to tell you how to post, but if you straight up refuse to speak on specific attributes of guys that you’re comparing against each other then I don’t think there’s a lot of value to repeating the same opinion over and over. If you like a guy better, cool. It’s all vibes. You have a right to that opinion, just not a right to having that be seen as a well-argued/defended opinion. Because if you aren’t bringing specific examples or at least talking about their skill-sets in relation to each other, what is the point? 

[88Comrade2000]

4 minutes ago, MartinC said:

I know. They should but there are probably TV contracts and money reasons why they don’t.

Also , coaches like having one more game with players.

 

 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, NOLA2DC said:

We disagree, so there is no need to get into spect attributes. Overall, I think he is a better and playmaker/difference than Maye. That's my opinion, and he's proven that against better competition. I am aware that top QBs currently have gone to Texas Tech, Louisville, Oregon, North Dakota St. (or wherever Allen went), LSU, and I forgot where Stafford went. So there is no correlation of where you play in college, just like I'm sure Maye will probably be better than previous UNC QBs😀.

 

Ok I've asked this of a few different people who have stated the same opinion regarding Daniels supposedly having a higher ceiling but nobody has seemed capable of giving me any sort of concrete answer when it comes to attributes, etc.

 

So I guess we'll just have to leave it like The Dude would...that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[RWJ]

21 minutes ago, MartinC said:

I know. They should but there are probably TV contracts and money reasons why they don’t.

Yep, it's all about $$$.  

[clskinsfan]

7 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Ok I've asked this of a few different people who have stated the same opinion regarding Daniels supposedly having a higher ceiling but nobody has seemed capable of giving me any sort of concrete answer when it comes to attributes, etc.

 

So I guess we'll just have to leave it like The Dude would...that's just, like, your opinion, man.

His legs are what make him special. He is a capable passer with an average arm IMO. But it will always be his athleticism that makes or breaks him. It is the main reason I prefer Maye over him. Maye is athletic as well. Not on the level of Daniels. But Maye has a far bigger arm and prototypical size as well. 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, ThatNFLChick said:

I just watched QB School's breakdown on Maye vs Clemson. Again he talks about Maye's low football IQ. I can't sorry, feels like Zach Wilson. 

 

For people wanting to know specifics:

 

In the Duke game UNC is in the redzone. They break the huddle and there are only 10 men on the offense on the field. Then they actually get up on the line of scrimmage and still don't have enough men on the line. Maye doesn't notice, snaps the ball, someone comes running in late who is ineligible and he doesn't notice and throws him the ball for a TD. He said its just super low football IQ when you're the leader of the team. 

 

The other play was when he drifted like 10-15 yards backward, he had nobody open and instead of throwing the ball out of bounds, he just ran out of bounds with the ball in his hands and lost 15 yards. 

 

Like its just basic football stuff that you can not do. So similar to Zach Wilson being physically talented but having low football IQ on several plays a game

 

 

He only provided 2 plays and then claimed that proved that Maye had an overall low football IQ? That doesn't sound much like J.T. Are you taking intellectual liberties here?

[FootballZombie]

1 hour ago, ThatNFLChick said:

The other play was when he drifted like 10-15 yards backward, he had nobody open and instead of throwing the ball out of bounds, he just ran out of bounds with the ball in his hands and lost 15 yards.

 

Say it with me. Rafiiiiii-kiiiiii

 

 

Under me Maye will either learn better decision making or his brain will be turned to mush via consecutive strikes to the noggin.

Eventually he will have to learn to dodge the stick.

Edited February 23 by FootballZombie

[DogofWar1]

14 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

He only provided 2 plays and then claimed that proved that Maye had an overall low football IQ? That doesn't sound much like J.T. Are you taking intellectual liberties here?

I joined the patreon and he reviews the whole game.  Still got a bit of end of the game to watch.

 

The loss was about 3 yards of what they called an "Elvis sack" not quite 15, but still very not-heads-up.

 

I dunno, watching Maye vs Duke I'm just not vibing with it.  I gotta go watch a highlight reel of the dude or something.

[SoCalSkins]

1 hour ago, Destino said:

Was there any doubt the bears were taking Caleb? I thought that was fairly evident. Justin Fields QB numbers are garbage, despite the media oddly fawning over the guy. If you really want to get a shock look at his sack% and compare it to a certain QB you know that recently set a sack record. 

The fact he doesn’t have an agent and his camp has reservations about playing for Chicago  doesn’t make it set in stone. Don’t discount Magic getting in his ear to pull an Eli. If the Bears are desperate to trade Fields that means they are actually worried about that possibility. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

I think I might have been the first poster on this forum to take Daniels seriously as a top ten pick, and same for McCarthy.  I absolutely think both are top ten worthy, and they were interesting to me back when it seemed like we were going to pick around four or five and be out of the Williams/Maye tier.  I understand their potential pretty well.  It's really clear for me that nither are the same caliber prospect as Maye or Williams.  There is a significant cliff from Maye to the Daniels/McCarthy tier, and they are closer to each other than they are to Maye.  It'd be really crazy and concerning to me if we passed over either Williams or Maye for them.  Trust doesn't come easily for me, and I would not trust Quinn and Peters unconditionally if they made what I feel to be an immediate and significant mistake at QB.

 

We aren't always in synch about QBs.  But this time we are and big time so.

 

McCarthy was the first QB I watched and touted on the draft thread, did it at the beginnng of the college season.  And months back i pushed Daniels on this thread before it became cool and turned into somewhat of a mania here   so I am close to lock step with you about both.  Both I agree are legit top 10 prospects.

 

But I also agree that Drake Maye is the superior QB to both prospects. 

 

Maye can make plays on every level -- in routes, out routes.  He throws with velocity.  He varies his speeds and has good touch.  Makes plays off platform.  Makes tight window-contested throws.  Can run.  And has faced every kind of adversity you can face in college which should prepare him well for the NFL.

 

And he's only 21.  And with supposedly very high intangibles.   We are very lucky to be in position to take him.

 

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/where-does-drake-maye-rank-210033186.html

 in how both signal-callers compare to recent first-round QB prospects. Sports Illustrated's Albert Breer recently asked a handful of NFL executives where they would rank Williams and Maye among the best QB prospects in the last four drafts, dating to 2021. According to Breer, they're viewed quite favorably.

"The universal answer (I got) was, other than Trevor (Lawrence), (Williams and Maye) are the two best," Breer said Thursday on 98.5 the Sports Hub's Zolak & Bertrand, as seen in the video above. "One person had Caleb in front of Trevor, but it was, generally speaking, Trevor one, Caleb two, Drake Maye three."

That's an encouraging sign, as Lawrence rebounded from a rocky rookie season under Urban Meyer to become a Pro Bowl quarterback for the Jacksonville Jaguars. Only four QBs have more passing yards than Lawrence since the start of the 2022 season, and his 43 touchdown passes in that span rank in the top 10 as well.

Williams may be the closer comparison to Lawrence, but execs still are very high on Maye: Breer noted he's heard Joe Burrow and Justin Herbert mentioned as potential comps for the UNC star.

"I think one of the things with Drake Maye that you're not guessing on is the type of person he is, and that you're gonna get an A-plus person," Breer said. "His dad was a quarterback at North Carolina. His brother was a starting power forward on the basketball team there. He comes from good stock.

"He is by all accounts the right type of kid, and as much as you don't want to throw a young quarterback into a bad situation, I do think if you have the first or second pick, the two quarterbacks in those spots are probably too good to pass up on."

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/39400577/what-patriots-get-draft-qb-drake-maye-no-3-jerod-mayo-bill-belichick

"He has good arm strength, good vision and he's very, very intelligent. He is very consistent with his decision-making," Longo said. "He is aggressive when you give him some freedom in regards to checking a route or plays. He's a good, total-package kid."

Maye's father, Mark, played football at UNC (1983-87). His brother Luke played basketball at the school (2015-19) and won a national championship, and another brother, Beau, was a walk-on for the Tar Heels in the 2022-23 season. Another brother, Cole, won a baseball national title at Florida.

Longo said he believes that Maye's experience growing up in an "ultra-sport-driven family" fed his competitive nature, which is the type of thing NFL scouts ask him about as much, if not more, than what they see on the field.

"The majority of the questions are about the things you can't see on film. What is the character of the kid? Is he obsessed with the game? Does he have natural leadership ability? If he does, what is it? Is he a quiet guy that is going to teach and mentor and coach guys? Is he a yeller and a screamer?" Longo explained.

"Matt Corral, who we had at Ole Miss, wore all his emotions on his sleeve. You knew how he was feeling just by looking at him. That's how he played and it's what made him good. Then Sam [Howell] was the opposite. He was cool, calm, collected -- the house is on fire and it doesn't matter, he'll handle the problem, assess it and address it.

"Then Drake is kind of in-between -- you can tell when he's fired up, when he's happy, when he's disappointed with himself, when he doesn't like a call. But it was never so drastic that he gets off that midline of being composed or poised that it would affect him emotionally in the game. He's very mature."

[ThatNFLChick]

14 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said:

I joined the patreon and he reviews the whole game.  Still got a bit of end of the game to watch.

 

The loss was about 3 yards of what they called an "Elvis sack" not quite 15, but still very not-heads-up.

 

I dunno, watching Maye vs Duke I'm just not vibing with it.  I gotta go watch a highlight reel of the dude or something.

 

Thank you. 

 

I am glad someone else is watching so they don't call me a liar. He said he loves his playmaking ability and praises the play he makes at the end of the game, but you saw how he ranted about those two plays and said he had a low football IQ right? Just to be clear.

 

Again, he also said some positives (has a huge arm, can throw to any part of the field, loves his scrambling ability and he slides well) but he spent quite a bit of time ranting about how the two plays I mentioned are plays you do not want on film and can not happen if you want to be an NFL QB. He has only done a few games so maybe his mind changes as he watches more?

Edited February 23 by ThatNFLChick

[The Consigliere]

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

For the trade down crowd:

 

 

One thing I thought of lately, and probably others have too is Belichick and Reid. For the past 21 years or so Belichick has slowly but surely. become the GOAT, unquestioned as such by Boston locals like Simmons in media, and for good reason, had a run of basically every other year in conference title games and super bowls, winning a bunch. Unparalleled run. But there's also more than a decade worth of seasons without GOAT Brady, and what does he look like as a HC? Ehhh, couldn't hold Schotty's jock as the coach of the Browns, and that Patriots ending was dog mess.

Consider Reid, always in the pantheon as one of the Rushmore+ best coaches of this new century, but nobody ever mentioned him as the best ever, NOBODY. Nobody even considered it. And yet people started scratching that itch this round of playoffs because what's happened since Mahomes rookie year is undeniable.

'18-'23: 6 seasons

Made the Conference championship 6 consecutive times, something even Belichick didn't accomplish.

Won 4 of the 6, and were unlucky to lose the other two (a terrible offsides play gifted Brady a last super bowl appearance in NE when the Chiefs should have won in '18), in it in every single conference title game, and every single Super Bowl since Mahomes.

 

What does that really tell you about coaching greatness.

 

Honestly. Pre-Brady, and Post Brady, Belichick was largely nothing, not horrible, not good, just "fine". Before Mahomes, Reid was one of the better coaches in the league, top 6 certainly in the aughts, with those great Eagles teams, and then with the Chiefs. He was good, but nobody anywhere thought of him as best anything. Now? Well, he's still not thought of anymore in that fashion, but people are wondering a bit, is this run getting close to unparalleled in a short term sense? Hell he even did the same thing Belichick did to Brady, leaving the cupboard bare slowly but surely on offense. What will happen? My guess is the same thing that happened to Brady in '05-'06, and '09, they may have Gotten Rice and Pacheco just in time to avert that, post Hill downward slide, not sure.

 

But for me anyway, what its illustrative is how thoroughly you must underline the QB as basically, everything. If a QB can turn Reid from a good coach to an all timer, and Belichick from a good DC and meh HC, to the GOAT, what does that say really? 

 

It's yet more evidence, btw, of how astounding certain accomplishments, like Gibbs 4 Super Bowls in 10 years, truly were.

 

But it also underlined how much more impressive the importance of a QB is in today's game, compared to back then. There is no underselling this. None. 

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, Destino said:

Was there any doubt the bears were taking Caleb? I thought that was fairly evident. Justin Fields QB numbers are garbage, despite the media oddly fawning over the guy. If you really want to get a shock look at his sack% and compare it to a certain QB you know that recently set a sack record. 

Nope. It was obvious as soon as the season ended. Fields is legitimately bad and I can't understand why anyone would want him.

14 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

The fact he doesn’t have an agent and his camp has reservations about playing for Chicago  doesn’t make it set in stone. Don’t discount Magic getting in his ear to pull an Eli. If the Bears are desperate to trade Fields that means they are actually worried about that possibility. 

The "not wanting to play in Chicago" rumor has been squashed and it was complete garbage from the start.

[mh86]

Let’s see if I got this right from both sides of Maye and Daniels. Please correct me if I miss or got something wrong. From what I’ve seen and read or “researched” as some poster put it, disregarding things out of their control like team makeup and level of competition faced

 

Jayden Daniels:

Pros

-Prototypical Height

-Experience

-Work ethic

-Passing efficiency

-Mobility/athletic ability

-Ability to read defenses (from what I gather) and exploit man coverage in passing or running

-Consistent footwork

 

Cons

-Lacks off-platform throwing ability (at least doesn’t do it)

-Lacks anticipation

-Only one year of proven success. I think prior to 2023 he never threw more than 20 TDs

-Weight, as has been beaten to death

-Often stares down his first read

-Arm strength (although this one for me isn’t as big of a deal from what I’ve seen)

-Oftentimes takes off and runs if first read isn’t open

-Protecting himself when running. However, it has been pointed out that he got better at that as the season went on.

-Uncomfortable throwing in the middle of the field.

 

When I made my comparison it was Hurts especially his first season in the NFL, which I still stand by. I remember him having issues with staring down his first read or taking off and running if his first read wasn’t open. Hurts would oftentimes escape from the pocket and take off and run when he didn’t need to. The biggest difference for me is Daniels is more accurate than Hurts was at that time.

 

Drake Maye:

Pros

-Prototypical size

-Arm

-Off-platform throwing ability

-Mobility/athletic ability

-Makes pre-snap adjustments/protections

-Good anticipation

-Shows ability to make progressions in passing

-Ability to make accurate throws at all three levels of the field.

Cons

-Decision making/forcing it. For instance, at times makes some head scratching throws instead throwing it away.

-Holds the ball a little too long at times

-At times takes too long to get off a read and onto the next

-Inconsistent footwork

-Post snap defense reading.

 

 

I left accuracy off for Maye because I’ve seen this argued both ways. That being said, he did fit it into tight windows, which is something Daniels hasn’t shown consistently if at all. I don’t really have a good comp for Maye. Early on I said Trevor Lawerence and I’ve seen others say Josh Allen. Maybe something between the two is more likely.

[bh32]

18 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

The fact he doesn’t have an agent and his camp has reservations about playing for Chicago  doesn’t make it set in stone. Don’t discount Magic getting in his ear to pull an Eli. If the Bears are desperate to trade Fields that means they are actually worried about that possibility. 

Oh no not again..lol

[clskinsfan]

11 minutes ago, mh86 said:

Let’s see if I got this right from both sides of Maye and Daniels. Please correct me if I miss or got something wrong. From what I’ve seen and read or “researched” as some poster put it, disregarding things out of their control like team makeup and level of competition faced

 

Jayden Daniels:

Pros

-Prototypical Height

-Experience

-Work ethic

-Passing efficiency

-Mobility/athletic ability

-Ability to read defenses (from what I gather) and exploit man coverage in passing or running

-Consistent footwork

 

Cons

-Lacks off-platform throwing ability (at least doesn’t do it)

-Lacks anticipation

-Only one year of proven success. I think prior to 2023 he never threw more than 20 TDs

-Weight, as has been beaten to death

-Often stares down his first read

-Arm strength (although this one for me isn’t as big of a deal from what I’ve seen)

-Oftentimes takes off and runs if first read isn’t open

-Protecting himself when running. However, it has been pointed out that he got better at that as the season went on.

-Uncomfortable throwing in the middle of the field.

 

When I made my comparison it was Hurts especially his first season in the NFL, which I still stand by. I remember him having issues with staring down his first read or taking off and running if his first read wasn’t open. Hurts would oftentimes escape from the pocket and take off and run when he didn’t need to. The biggest difference for me is Daniels is more accurate than Hurts was at that time.

 

Drake Maye:

Pros

-Prototypical size

-Arm

-Off-platform throwing ability

-Mobility/athletic ability

-Makes pre-snap adjustments/protections

-Good anticipation

-Shows ability to make progressions in passing

-Ability to make accurate throws at all three levels of the field.

Cons

-Decision making/forcing it. For instance, at times makes some head scratching throws instead throwing it away.

-Holds the ball a little too long at times

-At times takes too long to get off a read and onto the next

-Inconsistent footwork

-Post snap defense reading.

 

 

I left accuracy off for Maye because I’ve seen this argued both ways. That being said, he did fit it into tight windows, which is something Daniels hasn’t shown consistently if at all. I don’t really have a good comp for Maye. Early on I said Trevor Lawerence and I’ve seen others say Josh Allen. Maybe something between the two is more likely.

This is a good breakdown. One thing I would add to it is age. Where is Maye going to be 3 years from now when he is Daniels age? Lets not forget the guy is only 21 years old.

Edited February 23 by clskinsfan

[DogofWar1]

Anyone make a Rex Grossman comp for Maye yet?  I see some unleashing of the dragon sometimes.

 

I'm like 60% joking.

1 minute ago, clskinsfan said:

This is a good breakdown. One thing I would add to it is age. Where is Maye going to be 3 years from now when his is Daniels age? Lets not forget the guy is only 21 years old.

This is indeed a big benefit for Maye.  If his game takes as big of a leap between age 22 and 23 as Daniels' did, Maye will be Josh Allening it up ez.