The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[mistertim]

29 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Are you implying that Wentz is not an upgrade and we shouldn't win more than 7 games? What is the realistic goal for you then? I also said at least 11 wins. 12-14 was the higher expectation. 

 

 

Even people who have seemingly made it their life's mission to bash Wentz nowadays acknowledge that he's a clear upgrade over Heinicke, even if only because the coaches can utilize the whole playbook due to him having a NFL arm.

 

Measuring QBs solely on wins and losses is usually a dumb idea because of how many factors go into winning and losing games. A QB can put up 4 TDs, 0 INTs and have a 70% completion rate and the team can still lose.

 

Yes, the teams with upper echelon QBs definitely tend to win more games overall because an elite QB has such an outsized effect. But I'm not putting Wentz in that elite top 5 level. I'll judge him based on how he plays in games and the kinds of numbers he puts up.

 

And to be honest, I don't even think you'll necessarily only judge Wentz based on games won. Your agenda is so beyond transparent that I think how you judge him will depend upon what number makes him look worse. If we're winning games but he's not putting up big time numbers, you'll harp on his numbers. If he's putting up big time numbers but we're losing games, you'll harp on him not winning games.

[SkinsFTW]

6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

 If he's putting up big time numbers but we're losing games, you'll harp on him not winning games.

 

So basically like how most fans around here judged Kirk Cousins lol.

 

If he's not top 5, pull it out after the defense blows it late in the 4th, he's not good enough.

 

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

15 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Really doesn't have much to do with spreading it around...the tweet only mentions wide receivers. Wentz had two TEs who both had over 500 yards (Ertz had almost 1,000 yards) and a running back who had over 500 receiving yards as well.

 

So....he spread it around to two TEs and a running back in addition to his receivers, too?  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

55 minutes ago, mistertim said:

And to be honest, I don't even think you'll necessarily only judge Wentz based on games won. Your agenda is so beyond transparent that I think how you judge him will depend upon what number makes him look worse. If we're winning games but he's not putting up big time numbers, you'll harp on his numbers. If he's putting up big time numbers but we're losing games, you'll harp on him not winning games.

Ding, ding, ding.

 

"I'm happy the team's winning, but we could have got X stats out of a cheaper QB, like I dunno....TAYLOR HEINEKE"

 

"$28MM down the drain for a stat padding QB that can't win games"

 

It's inevitable.

[CommanderInTheRye]

Something for those still on team Heinicke to hold onto...

 

"Taylor Heinicke named one of the NFL's best...quarterbacks"

 

Specifically, CBS Sports just released a list ranking our very own Taylor Heinicke as the 6th "best...quarterback" in the entire league!

 

Wow!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No need to check out the links below. Old man Rye wouldn't lead you astray.

 

.

 

https://commanderswire.usatoday.com/2022/06/27/washington-commanders-qb-taylor-heinicke-named-one-of-the-nfls-best-backup-quarterbacks-carson-wentz/

 

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/ranking-the-best-backup-nfl-qbs-of-2022-49ers-jimmy-garoppolo-headlines-list-of-veteran-no-2s/

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by CommanderInTheRye

[CommanderCarson]

I think it’s generally well understood that there are many variables at play during a given football season that make wins and losses hard to pin directly on a QB’s shoulders and I agree with the general premise. BUT, if Wentz is the distinct upgrade people are claiming he is, and I agree he is, there should be a bit more optimism for the overall outcome this season by the media, fans, Vegas, etc. I mean if you are able to win 4 in a row against some good teams including Brady and Tampa, Carr and Vegas, and Russell and Seattle (yea I know Seattle wasn’t a great team and Russell was coming off injury but still not an “easy” win), with such a pedestrian untalented QB, that should give some credence to the fact that it was a damn good roster that will be booned by more talent and upside at the most important position in the game this year. AND we don’t play murderers row this year as far as QBs go, granted I also agree evaluating the schedule at this point in time is somewhat of a useless exercise as there is so much year to year variability. But that should help. So will hopefully not playing the last 4 games with replacement level players all over the place due to a Covid outbreak. But the general consensus by even 90% on here, even those claiming Heineke is horrid and Wentz a clear upgrade, is that we probably won’t be very good. Or at least that’s how it seems. So something probably does have to give there. It doesn’t mean we automatically win 12-14 games because he’s twice as good, but I think the coaching staff believes they have a talented team and an offense with a lot of good skill players and now an arm to take advantage of it all. 10-11 wins would seem to be quite achievable on the surface. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

18 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

I think it’s generally well understood that there are many variables at play during a given football season that make wins and losses hard to pin directly on a QB’s shoulders and I agree with the general premise. BUT, if Wentz is the distinct upgrade people are claiming he is, and I agree he is, there should be a bit more optimism for the overall outcome this season by the media, fans, Vegas, etc. I mean if you are able to win 4 in a row against some good teams including Brady and Tampa, Carr and Vegas, and Russell and Seattle (yea I know Seattle wasn’t a great team and Russell was coming off injury but still not an “easy” win), with such a pedestrian untalented QB, that should give some credence to the fact that it was a damn good roster that will be booned by more talent and upside at the most important position in the game this year. AND we don’t play murderers row this year as far as QBs go, granted I also agree evaluating the schedule at this point in time is somewhat of a useless exercise as there is so much year to year variability. But that should help. So will hopefully not playing the last 4 games with replacement level players all over the place due to a Covid outbreak. But the general consensus by even 90% on here, even those claiming Heineke is horrid and Wentz a clear upgrade, is that we probably won’t be very good. Or at least that’s how it seems. So something probably does have to give there. It doesn’t mean we automatically win 12-14 games because he’s twice as good, but I think the coaching staff believes they have a talented team and an offense with a lot of good skill players and now an arm to take advantage of it all. 10-11 wins would seem to be quite achievable on the surface. 

Clearly, you're new here and to the fanbase in general.

 

The reason for pessimism is the performance of this team for going on 30 years.  Even if things look up, they find a way to go down.

 

Generally speaking, sure - we should be better next season, but we're all well versed in the next season that should be better, going sideways.  It's the Dan Snyder gift that keeps on giving.

[FootballZombie]

41 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

But the general consensus by even 90% on here, even those claiming Heineke is horrid and Wentz a clear upgrade, is that we probably won’t be very good. Or at least that’s how it seems.

 

 

We are pessimistic at various individual focal points, but I think if you include the findings in the season prediction thread most of the active posters in this one think we will have a winning record or at least very close to it.

 

I think the majority of people here think we will be better than last season.

[Llevron]

9 hours ago, NickyJ said:

Whoever runs the team twitter page made a mistake. They don't understand that Wentz has only a tenuous grasp on the job over the Lambeau Lumper.

 

 

 

He looks so constipated in this picture lol. That's the exact 'I gotta poop' face I get from my daughter. 

 

Tho maybe its just I'm a NFL starter QB and can grow up to pay all your bills with this arm....face. And I just need to give her a football. **** now how do i know? 

[CommanderCarson]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Clearly, you're new here and to the fanbase in general.

 

The reason for pessimism is the performance of this team for going on 30 years.  Even if things look up, they find a way to go down.

 

Generally speaking, sure - we should be better next season, but we're all well versed in the next season that should be better, going sideways.  It's the Dan Snyder gift that keeps on giving.

I’m not actually, and I understand why there would be trepidation from most people to predict something that’s never actually happened in the Snyder era, win 11 games. 
 

But just commenting on the fact that a huge upgrade at QB theoretically should lead to an uptick in wins, and I don’t think @zCommander is wrong in that line of thinking. It’s not an automatic, but if he is in fact that big of an upgrade and I personally think he is just from a sheer talent and opening up the playbook standpoint, we should be a pretty formidable team.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[mistertim]

3 hours ago, CommanderCarson said:

I think it’s generally well understood that there are many variables at play during a given football season that make wins and losses hard to pin directly on a QB’s shoulders and I agree with the general premise. BUT, if Wentz is the distinct upgrade people are claiming he is, and I agree he is, there should be a bit more optimism for the overall outcome this season by the media, fans, Vegas, etc. I mean if you are able to win 4 in a row against some good teams including Brady and Tampa, Carr and Vegas, and Russell and Seattle (yea I know Seattle wasn’t a great team and Russell was coming off injury but still not an “easy” win), with such a pedestrian untalented QB, that should give some credence to the fact that it was a damn good roster that will be booned by more talent and upside at the most important position in the game this year. AND we don’t play murderers row this year as far as QBs go, granted I also agree evaluating the schedule at this point in time is somewhat of a useless exercise as there is so much year to year variability. But that should help. So will hopefully not playing the last 4 games with replacement level players all over the place due to a Covid outbreak. But the general consensus by even 90% on here, even those claiming Heineke is horrid and Wentz a clear upgrade, is that we probably won’t be very good. Or at least that’s how it seems. So something probably does have to give there. It doesn’t mean we automatically win 12-14 games because he’s twice as good, but I think the coaching staff believes they have a talented team and an offense with a lot of good skill players and now an arm to take advantage of it all. 10-11 wins would seem to be quite achievable on the surface. 

 

I certainly do expect our offense to be more potent with Wentz at QB and definitely hope that leads to more wins. My main gripe was just with judging a QB purely by wins and losses in general. Teams win and lose games. A great QB is a huge catalyst to winning games (especially over the long run), but even an elite QB can be hampered by a poor defense, supporting cast, etc.

 

There are only a very small number of QBs who are so good that they can propel their team to victory despite a mediocre supporting cast and/or poor defense. I don't think Wentz is one of those guys (though in 2017 he looked like he could definitely be heading in that direction) but I do think he's good enough that with a decent supporting cast and defense he can help us win games.

[Voice_of_Reason]

23 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

I'm starting to worry that Wentz/Heinicke will become a modern-day Campbell/Collins lol...

Collins could play, though.  He had enough arm to run every one of whatshisname's 800 page playbook.  EDIT: Al Saunders.  I don't know why but I've basically blocked his name from my memory.  

 

TH could probably only run 600 of them.  

 

Not so good.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

7 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Collins could play, though.  He had enough arm to run every one of whatshisname's 800 page playbook.  EDIT: Al Saunders.  I don't know why but I've basically blocked his name from my memory.  

 

TH could probably only run 600 of them.  

 

Not so good.  

 

Wasn't meant as a comparison of playing styles lol...

[D’Pablo]

I feel like Wentz has the ceiling of Matthew Stafford, who never won anything [IN DETROIT - edited for those who don’t understand contextual clues] without Megatron around.

Edited June 28, 2022 by D’Pablo

[redskinss]

15 minutes ago, D’Pablo said:

I feel like Wentz has the ceiling of Matthew Stafford, who never won anything without Megatron around.

Except the superbowl last year. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

20 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Wasn't meant as a comparison of playing styles lol...

I get it.  Which is why the comparison would be so fantastically stupid. 

 

One guy could possibly be a low-end starter.  The other doesn't have the tools.  

 

But then, neither did Brennan (RIP) and we had a cult around him too. 

Frankly, I think the only thing different between the Cult and the Hive is that there were a load of Cult members and there are 4 hive members left.  

 

As a complete aside, Colt Brennan is a "sliding doors" story for me.  What would have happened to him if he had been drafted by a team not coached by Jim Zorn, who actually wanted him, and could develop him?  He needed to change his mechanics because his release was so low, it was going to be a problem at the NFL level.  But he didn't have a weak arm.  Not a cannon, but if he had managed to raise his launch point a bit, maybe he could have stayed in the league and some of the things that happened to him wouldn't have happened.  

 

It's very unfortunate.  He was drafted into an absolutely horrendous situation, with a no-nothing coach who didn't have a lot of time to develop him, and Colt was out when Shanahan got here.  I was absolutely NOT a member of the cult, completely the opposite, but he had some talent, and it's a shame it was wasted.  

 

I wonder if there is an overlap between Hive members and Cult members...  

19 minutes ago, D’Pablo said:

I feel like Wentz has the ceiling of Matthew Stafford, who never won anything without Megatron around.

This seems like a very ...  odd post.  Given he never won anything with Megatron, and he won the SB last year.  

 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, D’Pablo said:

I feel like Wentz has the ceiling of Matthew Stafford, who never won anything without Megatron around.

 

Did you write this post a year ago, and just forgot to hit Submit Reply until now?

Edited June 28, 2022 by mistertim

[NickyJ]

37 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

As a complete aside, Colt Brennan is a "sliding doors" story for me.  What would have happened to him if he had been drafted by a team not coached by Jim Zorn, who actually wanted him, and could develop him?  He needed to change his mechanics because his release was so low, it was going to be a problem at the NFL level.  But he didn't have a weak arm.  Not a cannon, but if he had managed to raise his launch point a bit, maybe he could have stayed in the league and some of the things that happened to him wouldn't have happened.  

 

It's very unfortunate.  He was drafted into an absolutely horrendous situation, with a no-nothing coach who didn't have a lot of time to develop him, and Colt was out when Shanahan got here.  I was absolutely NOT a member of the cult, completely the opposite, but he had some talent, and it's a shame it was wasted.  

 

I wonder if there is an overlap between Hive members and Cult members...  

I think that Brennan and Heinicke were both in the same sort of situation. Heinicke got his big break when Dwayne Haskins was still fizzling out as our franchise QB. In 2008, just the next offseason after watching Collins outplay our "franchise QB" in Campbell, people saw an underdog in the young, uninitiated gunslinger. I did. I was too young to even know ES existed, but I 100% believed Brennan could win, and some little piece of me still does believe that Brennan was more deserving of the love and adoration that the Shanaclan gave John Beck.

 

Either way, young underdogs fighting tooth and nail against the lacking 1st round pick will always get the favor. That Heinicke still has their favor after a full season of mediocrity and a clearly more accomplished QB surprises me.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

4 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I get it.  Which is why the comparison would be so fantastically stupid. 

 

One guy could possibly be a low-end starter.  The other doesn't have the tools.  

 

But then, neither did Brennan (RIP) and we had a cult around him too. 

Frankly, I think the only thing different between the Cult and the Hive is that there were a load of Cult members and there are 4 hive members left. 

 

I might need to add more clarity lol...

 

My only comparison was between the fan base reactions then and the (possible) fan base reactions now, if certain things should occur. Not between players. Collins was a weak-armed backup who did nothing for years until a 4-game win streak that helped get us into the playoffs (and his arm was damn weak, fellas lol). That earned him an almost mythical status among a segment of ESers and tons of complaints that we should have just stuck with Collins over starting the stronger-armed Campbell. When Campbell didn't really produce much in terms of TDs during the start of the next season (8 TDs in first 8 games). that's all we heard about around here. He didn't have any INTs, but didn't matter to many fans. Went 6-2 during those games...didn't matter. When the season fell apart over the 2nd half it just strengthened that mindset in some fans.

 

Even 2 years later when both QBs were no longer on the team, we still had fans claiming it was a mistake not starting Collins over Campbell...didn't matter that Collins went on to show just how mediocre and weak-armed he really was the next season and then again on another team...Collins was being compared to a guy most here felt was a lost cause and the offense never looked as good with Campbell as with Collins, etc, etc. Fans loved what Collins did during the year Sean Taylor was murdered...one of the very few bright spots for the fan base.

 

So my fear was that we end up starting the season looking mediocre, going 1-2 or 0-3, and 2020 version of Wentz shows up...a few years from now when both QBs are off the team we will still be reading lengthy back-and-forths about how Rivera should have just stuck with the 5' 6" noodle-armed Heinicke. followed by how Carson "I just **** my pants again throwing a left-handed INT" Wentz was still better lol...just like we did with Campbell and Collins...over and over and over again.

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

With McLaurin's extension, Wentz now has a few years with the fastest WR corps he's ever had. Really want to see how the offense evolves over the season.

 

Wentz's top two WR's by targets average speed:

2021: 4.535

2020: 4.585 (not including #3 WR Raegor, he ran a 4.47)

2019: 4.45 (although this was Alshon Jeffery's last season as a starter, so probably not running his combine speed of 4.48 anymore)

2018: 4.45 (same duo as 2019 with Jeffery and Agholor)

2017: 4.45 (not including #3 WR Torrey Smith, he ran a 4.41)

2016: 4.475 (Jordan Matthews and Dorial Green-Beckham)

 

2022 Commanders:

McLaurin + Dotson = 4.39

McLaurin + Dotson + Samuels = 4.363

Edited June 28, 2022 by Always A Commander Never A Captain

[Conn]

Wentz is set up for a potential career year, just needs to grab the opportunity and play loose and confident.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Conn

[Cooleyfan1993]

You know which camp im in? Camp “whoever the **** can bring us to the super bowl”  

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[zCommander]

9 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Even people who have seemingly made it their life's mission to bash Wentz nowadays acknowledge that he's a clear upgrade over Heinicke, even if only because the coaches can utilize the whole playbook due to him having a NFL arm.

 

Measuring QBs solely on wins and losses is usually a dumb idea because of how many factors go into winning and losing games. A QB can put up 4 TDs, 0 INTs and have a 70% completion rate and the team can still lose.

 

Yes, the teams with upper echelon QBs definitely tend to win more games overall because an elite QB has such an outsized effect. But I'm not putting Wentz in that elite top 5 level. I'll judge him based on how he plays in games and the kinds of numbers he puts up.

 

And to be honest, I don't even think you'll necessarily only judge Wentz based on games won. Your agenda is so beyond transparent that I think how you judge him will depend upon what number makes him look worse. If we're winning games but he's not putting up big time numbers, you'll harp on his numbers. If he's putting up big time numbers but we're losing games, you'll harp on him not winning games.

 

I find it hilarious that you really think you know me really well ...lol

I never said he is not an upgrade. But you keep on harping on that like it is end all be all. Upgrade means jack **** if we end up winning only 3 games. You want to sit there and look at his stats while we lose games? Not doing the Kirk Cousins dance with Wentz. I was pro Kirk in the beginning and then he turned out to be well you already know. 

 

My agenda, for the last time, (also stop talking on my behalf) is simple: Win 11 games for us Commander Wentz! Taylor sucked in some games last year and had really bad numbers but we still managed to win the game. It is that simple for me. But I still don't know why you LOVE to make thing more complicated than they really are need to be. 

 

You responding to my posts....

 

 

 

8 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Ding, ding, ding.

 

"I'm happy the team's winning, but we could have got X stats out of a cheaper QB, like I dunno....TAYLOR HEINEKE"

 

"$28MM down the drain for a stat padding QB that can't win games"

 

It's inevitable.

 

Sorry no chicken dinner for you!

Ask the Vikings fans how they feel about Kirk...lol