The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[ntotoro]

6 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

Do you realize how silly this sounds with hindsight? Which you have the benefit of having?

Sure, and I agreed and said at the time I was excited to see Wentz. I was so incredibly wrong I’m embarrassed, and I’m even more embarrassed he’s my user name on here. The fact you’re doubling down and basically excusing Ron for making an awful decision in retrospect shows where your agenda really lies.

 

Hindsight means nothing when you see two winnable games your QB has the opportunity to close out, but fails (both Giants games) and a Falcons game where the QB had two HUGE chances to get a win, but it came down to the D getting an INT at the goal line. 

 

We've seen Heiney's best and know his ceiling. He kept bumping his head on it. The HC rightfully felt "Hey, let's see what the other guy has."

 

Just because Carson sucked the chrome off a trailer hitch doesn't mean Heiney is worth his weight in copper. Three consecutive games, Heiney had every opportunity to win and underwhelmed. 

[CommanderCarson]

1 minute ago, ntotoro said:

 

Hindsight means nothing when you see two winnable games your QB has the opportunity to close out, but fails (both Giants games) and a Falcons game where the QB had two HUGE chances to get a win, but it came down to the D getting an INT at the goal line. 

 

We've seen Heiney's best and know his ceiling. He kept bumping his head on it. The HC rightfully felt "Hey, let's see what the other guy has."

 

Just because Carson sucked the chrome off a trailer hitch doesn't mean Heiney is worth his weight in copper. Three consecutive games, Heiney had every opportunity to win and underwhelmed. 

Here’s the difference, we were in both giants games actually competing and playing NFL football. 
 

Contrast that the browns game.

 

Look I agreed with Rivera and agreed with your point at the time too. Just tired of reading about how bad heineke sucked when he was a big part of actually playing competitive football in December and it’s not unreasonable at all to think we may beat the browns and are in the playoffs. Long term the best thing happened to us did and we were able to see a glimpse of howell.

 

But to basically prop up Wentz like it was some smart decision to make for Rivera after watching what happened is nothing other than a ruse to people that actually don’t hate heineke.

[Conn]

11 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

Do you realize how silly this sounds with hindsight? Which you have the benefit of having?

Sure, and I agreed and said at the time I was excited to see Wentz. I was so incredibly wrong I’m embarrassed, and I’m even more embarrassed he’s my user name on here. The fact you’re doubling down and basically excusing Ron for making an awful decision in retrospect shows where your agenda really lies.

 

Huh? The only thing that’s “hindsight” is um…commenting with the benefit of hindsight like you’re doing. Heinicke stunk, the team needed a spark. I don’t excuse Rivera for anything because I (like some others) was calling for Howell since the bye. And clearly more snaps for Howell would have been a better outcome, so we were correct. Wentz isn’t what I wanted to see in an ideal world, but it was obvious to anyone watching that Heinicke needed to be benched. Wentz was a colossal failure here and a bad trade. I’m not rewriting history or excusing the decision. I’m talking about when Heinicke was playing poorly enough to be benched. Wentz playing poorly in relief doesn’t change the context of the situation. 

 

All this aside, this conversation started with me asking how Rivera “threw Heinicke under the bus”. Heinicke owes his whole career to this coaching staff being unable to upgrade on him, that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have tried. Rivera benched a bad QB and one of the replacements was also bad. It happens, doesn’t mean you just stick with one guy as if he’s a Make-a-Wish kid you owe the opportunity to. You guys are STILL delusional with this Heinicke stuff holy crap. Jumbo was right, even just the whiff of this topic dumbs this entire thread and board down. So I’m going to leave it here. I have no agenda. 

[ntotoro]

2 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

Here’s the difference, we were in both giants games actually competing and playing NFL football. 
 

Contrast that the browns game.

 

Look I agreed with Rivera and agreed with your point at the time too. Just tired of reading about how bad heineke sucked when he was a big part of actually playing competitive football in December and it’s not unreasonable at all to think we may beat the browns and are in the playoffs. Long term the best thing happened to us did and we were able to see a glimpse of howell.

 

But to basically prop up Wentz like it was some smart decision to make for Rivera after watching what happened is nothing other than a ruse to people that actually don’t hate heineke.

 

The team as a whole was different because Carson played? We saw the next week against Dallas how Sam played, so I don't think they said "Ok, NOW we'll play because Carson isn't in."

 

No facet of the game worked against Cleveland, but it had nothing to do with Carson. Carson's ineptitude was all on himself. The D sucked on its own. ST sucked on its own. Heiney's presence doesn't make them play better. The team won against Atlanta despite his presence, not because of him. He had opportunities to win both Giants games and failed to show. Why would you leave that in when you know his ceiling? The 49ers game wasn't exactly a bright spot for him. He had one good series the entire game. There really are times you have to trust the eyes and not just "Well, his QBR is bla, bla, bla... "

 

At the time, it made sense to try Carson. He looked at least competent in a relief role the prior week, so you prepare him and find out. The team found out and it wasn't pretty, but it made sense at the time, given Heiney's inability to rise to further occasions.

[FootballZombie]

I can not measure the relief I feel not having to watch TH pretend to play the QB position anymore.

Dude is the horrendous play measuring stick I will utilize moving forward for any QB that plays on our team for an extended time. I'm not asking if they are Grossman bad, or Beck bad. Its if they are TH bad.

 

Absolute abomination the likes of which I have never seen from any QB on this team offered extended PT. Peeps need to let him leave with whatever small amount of dignity he has left rather than trying to defend the idea that he sucked more like a Hoover than a Dyson.

 

He was bad. Really, really, really bad. Move on.

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

12 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 I have a mental image of the Aflac duck yelling quarterback now.

Well this is clearly a Photoshop project of mine in the near future.

[Skinsinparadise]

18 hours ago, max21 said:

Just know, that I know, that Heinicke doesn’t want to re sign in Washington. Obviously money talks, but just know 

 

 

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, Conn said:

 

Then he probably should have played well enough to avoid being benched, right? That’s not “throwing someone under the bus”. Something had to be done to try to bring the spark Heinicke had stopped bringing many games earlier. Rivera stuck with him plenty long. Too long, according to most objective observers. Wentz bombing doesn’t change that. 

 

My point was not about the under the bus or Wentz had to be put in for whatever reason but to him he felt he was wronged by the coach and doesn't want to stay even if asked to. Which I am sure no one has a problem with that.

[redskinss]

The more I think about it the more I wonder if Heinicke will ever see a roster again. 

Turner is gone so it's highly unlikely he's coming back here.

 

Nobody would even consider him as a starter and I think the overwhelming majority of 3rd stringers are guys who are very young with potential for the future so that leaves 2nd string.

 

So when teams sit down to evaluate their rosters for next year and who they should bring in for backups, what value does Heinicke bring?

 

He's short, has no arm talent, doesn't use his legs hardly at all anymore and will now be on the wrong side of 30.

 

Is it that he's a winner?

He's what .500 for his career, doubt that's considered much of a positive. 

Does he know anyone's system?

I don't think anyone else is running turners system and I'd be very surprised if Turner got a job as a coordinator this year.

 

Can't quantify moxie so I doubt that'll even come up that's more of a fan thing.

 

What reason does any team have as their sitting down to discuss their roster to want to bring him in?

I guess the one thing you could say Is that he doesn't look lost out there like most rookies and some veterans do, is that enough to get a spot, I'm not so sure.

 

My opinion it's 80/20 he sees a roster next year and if not he's done forever.

 

 

[The Consigliere]

I have to admit the whole Heini/Wentz arguments and feuds are utterly bewildering to me. Two guys that are totally irrelevant if you want to build a .500+ team that can move the ball through the air effectively and generate a legit chance to make the playoffs. It's obvious, they're both not remotely good enough, for distinctly different reasons to be sure, but obviously neither are acceptable. Wentz has just been launched off rosters Trebuchet style in the offseason 3 consecutive years based on what he did on the field and supposedly at times in the room. Heini clearly lacks some of the arm talent necessary to be effective which sucks, but is reality for him. 

 

Both are about as relevant to making runs to the playoffs and becoming a legit team going forward as Gus Frerotte and Gibran Hamdan were. Why there's any feud about it is beyond me. It's like Tydus Winans fans arguing with Albert Connell fans. Seriously guys? Let it go. They both suck. Different reasons but still, they both suck. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by The Consigliere

[Jumbo]

3 hours ago, CommanderCarson said:

Here’s the difference, we were in both giants games actually competing and playing NFL football. 
 

Contrast that the browns game.

 

Look I agreed with Rivera and agreed with your point at the time too. Just tired of reading about how bad heineke sucked when he was a big part of actually playing competitive football in December and it’s not unreasonable at all to think we may beat the browns and are in the playoffs. Long term the best thing happened to us did and we were able to see a glimpse of howell.

 

But to basically prop up Wentz like it was some smart decision to make for Rivera after watching what happened is nothing other than a ruse to people that actually don’t hate heineke.

 

 

Heinieke sucked. He's on of the suckiest players to ever line up at the position in the NFL.

 

Heinieke fans proffer some of most ridiculous "analysis" and clueless contentions I've ever read on the site. The heinie humping is one of the stupidest "eras" of posting ever on this site.  

 

And while it mercifully died down a lot recently the truly afflicted still have relapses of stupid.

 

I know all the defenses for celebrating HIM as some major reason for the wins we had with him at the helm and they're stupid. Ignoring all the qualifiers that need to be properly attached to those wins is being stupid.

 

Stubbornly clinging to your stupid is stupid.

 

There was plenty that can be celebrated about those wins. There's even a couple aspects, and a little pile of cool plays, of heinies typically poor individual play  that could be celebrated without doing a stupid version of it.

 

 

 

Added: and the wentz experience was horrible in every way, all the way. That was really stupid by the fo.

[redskinss]

Me when I'm trying to reason with the hive.

 

Jumbo doing the same thing

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by redskinss

[NickyJ]

23 minutes ago, redskinss said:

Nobody would even consider him as a starter and I think the overwhelming majority of 3rd stringers are guys who are very young with potential for the future so that leaves 2nd string.

 

So when teams sit down to evaluate their rosters for next year and who they should bring in for backups, what value does Heinicke bring?

 

He's short, has no arm talent, doesn't use his legs hardly at all anymore and will now be on the wrong side of 30.

 

Is it that he's a winner?

He's what .500 for his career, doubt that's considered much of a positive. 

Does he know anyone's system?

I don't think anyone else is running turners system and I'd be very surprised if Turner got a job as a coordinator this year.

I was among the louder critics of Heinicke for this past season, but I think there's an actual road to him being on a roster as a backup. I don't know how likely it would be for teams to see it and take the risk. Heinicke has undeniably shined when he steps in as a backup whose only job is to win on the spot. He shined in the playoff game, he did okay for short stints. But the longer he played and the more likely he was going to be given the starting job for an extended time, the more he tried to play a traditional game and sucked at it.

 

If he goes to a team with a gameplan around a mobile franchise QB, Heinicke might have a place. No chance of him feeling like the starting job could be his, no reason for him to clam up and do anything but play his heart out. Baltimore, Denver (that could get ugly if Wilson doesn't get right though), Buffalo, teams like that. Particularly Baltimore.

 

That is probably the only positive thing you'll see me say about Heinicke now. But he should never play here again. He needs to be somewhere without his rabid following.

Edited January 24, 2023 by NickyJ

[Jumbo]

I'll add for the benefit of those lost souls who feel unjustly set upon by my words that I am, as one sports legend observed, "a turrible turrible hooman bean."

 

But not stupid. 😛💩👽🤖

[Warhead36]

46 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

I have to admit the whole Heini/Wentz arguments and feuds are utterly bewildering to me. Two guys that are totally irrelevant if you want to build a .500+ team that can move the ball through the air effectively and generate a legit chance to make the playoffs. It's obvious, they're both not remotely good enough, for distinctly different reasons to be sure, but obviously neither are acceptable. Wentz has just been launched off rosters Trebuchet style in the offseason 3 consecutive years based on what he did on the field and supposedly at times in the room. Heini clearly lacks some of the arm talent necessary to be effective which sucks, but is reality for him. 

 

Both are about as relevant to making runs to the playoffs and becoming a legit team going forward as Gus Frerotte and Gibran Hamdan were. Why there's any feud about it is beyond me. It's like Tydus Winans fans arguing with Albert Connell fans. Seriously guys? Let it go. They both suck. Different reasons but still, they both suck. 

Yeah for real. But people have hero worship and choose strange hills to die on.

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

3 hours ago, redskinss said:

The more I think about it the more I wonder if Heinicke will ever see a roster again. 

Turner is gone so it's highly unlikely he's coming back here.

 

Nobody would even consider him as a starter and I think the overwhelming majority of 3rd stringers are guys who are very young with potential for the future so that leaves 2nd string.

 

So when teams sit down to evaluate their rosters for next year and who they should bring in for backups, what value does Heinicke bring?

 

He's short, has no arm talent, doesn't use his legs hardly at all anymore and will now be on the wrong side of 30.

 

Is it that he's a winner?

He's what .500 for his career, doubt that's considered much of a positive. 

Does he know anyone's system?

I don't think anyone else is running turners system and I'd be very surprised if Turner got a job as a coordinator this year.

 

Can't quantify moxie so I doubt that'll even come up that's more of a fan thing.

 

What reason does any team have as their sitting down to discuss their roster to want to bring him in?

I guess the one thing you could say Is that he doesn't look lost out there like most rookies and some veterans do, is that enough to get a spot, I'm not so sure.

 

My opinion it's 80/20 he sees a roster next year and if not he's done forever.

 

 

It's time for Heinicke to go back and dominate the XFL. Dude would be a legend for the DC Defenders.

[SkinsFTW]

55 minutes ago, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

It's time for Heinicke to go back and dominate the XFL. Dude would be a legend for the DC Defenders.

 

Either that, or he can probably afford a really really nice couch to crash on at his sisters house. 

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

1 hour ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Either that, or he can probably afford a really really nice couch to crash on at his sisters house. 

Man, the best.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Either that, or he can probably afford a really really nice couch to crash on at his sisters house. 

I think he should buy his sister a new place and a new couch….

2 hours ago, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

It's time for Heinicke to go back and dominate the XFL. Dude would be a legend for the DC Defenders.

Maybe.  But last time he was in the XFL he was a backup.  When he doesn’t have his mojo aka Terry McLaurin, that might be his physical ceiling.  

[mistertim]

9 hours ago, CommanderCarson said:

 

Look I agreed with Rivera and agreed with your point at the time too. Just tired of reading about how bad heineke sucked when he was a big part of actually playing competitive football in December and it’s not unreasonable at all to think we may beat the browns and are in the playoffs. Long term the best thing happened to us did and we were able to see a glimpse of howell.

 

But to basically prop up Wentz like it was some smart decision to make for Rivera after watching what happened is nothing other than a ruse to people that actually don’t hate heineke.

 

1) No, Heinicke had very little to do with us playing "competitive football in December". Our running game and defense did the large majority of the heavy lifting while Heinicke's role was clearly diminished intentionally so he mostly had to not screw up too much. (which he still managed to do a decent amount anyway).

 

2) Can you point to someone who is "propping up" Wentz?

 

6 hours ago, The Consigliere said:

I have to admit the whole Heini/Wentz arguments and feuds are utterly bewildering to me. Two guys that are totally irrelevant if you want to build a .500+ team that can move the ball through the air effectively and generate a legit chance to make the playoffs. It's obvious, they're both not remotely good enough, for distinctly different reasons to be sure, but obviously neither are acceptable. Wentz has just been launched off rosters Trebuchet style in the offseason 3 consecutive years based on what he did on the field and supposedly at times in the room. Heini clearly lacks some of the arm talent necessary to be effective which sucks, but is reality for him. 

 

Both are about as relevant to making runs to the playoffs and becoming a legit team going forward as Gus Frerotte and Gibran Hamdan were. Why there's any feud about it is beyond me. It's like Tydus Winans fans arguing with Albert Connell fans. Seriously guys? Let it go. They both suck. Different reasons but still, they both suck. 

 

The interesting thing is that it isn't even a "Heini/Wentz" argument, because nobody is actually arguing for Wentz. Pretty much everyone agrees that Wentz was ass and the whole Wentz experiment was a mistake.

 

So the main "argument" seems to be Heinicke dead-enders who are now throwing around stuff about him being "wronged" or "thrown under the bus" by the coaching staff, when in reality he got way more chances than most QBs who played that poorly would.

 

They're just throwing Wentz in there to make it sound like it's some real discussion/debate/argument, when in reality it's just them whining and screaming at the clouds while the rest of us just sort of roll our eyes.

[MrJL]

I think calling your fellow fans stupid is stupid, but it's pretty obvious this fanbase hates each other, so it's no surprise really

 

Heinicke having a diminished role means the O  was schemed properly.  Which it wasn't when Wentz was in there.  Perhaps the same would have happened with Howell in there.  Or maybe Turner wouldn't have been satisfied with 19 throws per game for the new guy for an entire month

 

 

[Jumbo]

31 minutes ago, MrJL said:

I think calling your fellow fans stupid is stupid, but it's pretty obvious this fanbase hates each other, so it's no surprise really

 

Heinicke having a diminished role means the O  was schemed properly.  Which it wasn't when Wentz was in there.  Perhaps the same would have happened with Howell in there.  Or maybe Turner wouldn't have been satisfied with 19 throws per game for the new guy for an entire month

 

 

 

Talk about stupid. I didn't call my fellow fans stupid. I called certain views and manner of arguing them "stupid." Like I'm calling certain  aspects of your post stupid now.

 

Another stupid view would be suggesting being a fellow fan precludes you from being stupid on a matter. It was stupid to posture that it does. 🙂

 

Also the fanbase hating each other isn't just a stupid comment, it's also vapid and specious and just so devoid of context in the way you presented it that it merits those additional adjectives.

 

Everybody is open to being stupid at times. I think it's best to try to minimize the stupid. You seem to have chosen a different path. 🙂

[method man]

9 hours ago, redskinss said:

The more I think about it the more I wonder if Heinicke will ever see a roster again. 

Turner is gone so it's highly unlikely he's coming back here.

 

Nobody would even consider him as a starter and I think the overwhelming majority of 3rd stringers are guys who are very young with potential for the future so that leaves 2nd string.

 

So when teams sit down to evaluate their rosters for next year and who they should bring in for backups, what value does Heinicke bring?

 

He's short, has no arm talent, doesn't use his legs hardly at all anymore and will now be on the wrong side of 30.

 

Is it that he's a winner?

He's what .500 for his career, doubt that's considered much of a positive. 

Does he know anyone's system?

I don't think anyone else is running turners system and I'd be very surprised if Turner got a job as a coordinator this year.

 

Can't quantify moxie so I doubt that'll even come up that's more of a fan thing.

 

What reason does any team have as their sitting down to discuss their roster to want to bring him in?

I guess the one thing you could say Is that he doesn't look lost out there like most rookies and some veterans do, is that enough to get a spot, I'm not so sure.

 

My opinion it's 80/20 he sees a roster next year and if not he's done forever.

 

 

 

Not sure where this misconception that Henicke is a pure Air Coryell guy comes from. Scott was a QB coach wherever he was with Taylor before they were in Washington together. While he was under Norv for 2015 and a part of 2016 in Minny and in 2018 in Carolina, he also spent time in the Josh McDaniels / Bill O'Brien system in 2017 across the Patriots and Texans and the Shurmur West Coast system in part of 2016 and through training camp in 2017 before getting cut. 

 

Given current veteran backups include the likes of John Wolford, Tim Boyle, Trevor Siemian, Kyle Allen, Brandon Allen, and Nick Mullens, Heinicke won't have an issue getting a job elsewhere.

[El Mexican]

9 hours ago, Jumbo said:

 

 

Heinieke sucked. He's on of the suckiest players to ever line up at the position in the NFL.

 

...

 

All you said is true, yet he won the most games for us this season. No way around it.

 

The real problem this season was RR evaluating incorrectly (again) our starting QB.

 

Too many wasted opportunities.

[mistertim]

4 minutes ago, El Mexican said:

 

All you said is true, yet he won the most games for us this season. No way around it.

 

The real problem this season was RR evaluating incorrectly (again) our starting QB.

 

Too many wasted opportunities.

 

You can be a sucky QB and still be part of a team that wins games. It's happened several times before.

 

When you say the "real problem" was RR evaluating QB incorrectly, what exactly do you mean? He wasn't fair enough to Heinicke? He overestimated Wentz? He didn't give Howell enough of a shot?

 

40 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

 

Everybody is open to being stupid at times. 

 

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Edited January 25, 2023 by mistertim