The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[CjSuAvE22]

9 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Bringing in a veteran backup is fine as long as they know they're the backup 100%. Don't give them any iota of thought that they can compete for a starting job. You're the backup, period.

 

And I think its imperative the backup be mobile. That's been a general team building philosophy of mine is to always have a mobile backup because they can pick up the occasional junk yards/first downs to extend an extra drive or two that can be the difference between winning and losing a close game(that's basically what Heinicke did although he also had some ridiculous BS luck to win some games).

what type of vet qb is going to come here to be a back up?? most likely someone that isn't very good id rather take my chance on a young qb 

 

1 minute ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

Ok, I changed my mind...I am convinced Daniel Jones is a bona fide franchise QB worthy of a big contract. I feel foolish saying otherwise.

 

 

I know you are being sarcastic and hes not worthy of a big contact but hes worthy of at least a 3 year deal imo he has one weapon on offense no tight ends or receivers and led his team to a divisional playoff game.

Edited January 22, 2023 by CjSuAvE22

[Califan007 The Constipated]

13 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

I know you are being sarcastic and hes not worthy of a big contact but hes worthy of at least a 3 year deal imo he has one weapon on offense no tight ends or receivers and led his team to a divisional playoff game.

 

Nope, not being sarcastic...I mean, look at the foolishness I wrote about Jones on this thread last Monday:

 

"His last game against us he was downright mediocre...and that was the first time he had beaten a Heinicke-led Washington team lol...I mean, he threw for a whopping 160 yards and averaged 5 yards per attempt. That was 4 weeks ago."

 

 

 

 

[Havenless]

Cut Wentz, keep Heineke as the bridge QB. Trade up for the guy who inevitably falls out of the top 10 (Levis?). Get Leftwich to help groom him, Heineke, Howell… then have them fight to the death.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Havenless

[Captain Wiggles]

[KDawg]

Jones’ playoff game actually helps the Giants. His cost just dropped. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Jones game probably does help the Giants save some cash.  
 

I thought the Jones love was a bit out of hand after the Vikings game.  The MIN D basically let the Giants march down the field at will as they did every other offense but ours. 

[Skinsinparadise]

45 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

I thought the Jones love was a bit out of hand after the Vikings game.  The MIN D basically let the Giants march down the field at will as they did every other offense but ours. 

 

I am sort of play it medium at least in my mind  when it comes to the Giants and Daniel Jones.  As I mentioned, I watched most of their games every year.

 

A.  I am not with the crowd that hey the Giants found their dude and we are just homers for not recognizing that Giants found the right dude.   He might not be elite but he's good enough.

 

B.  I am also not in the Daniel Jones "meh" crowd but i get it, i am not a mile away from that thought.  To me its TBD, i was in the "meh" crowd before this season.  And clearly the Giants felt the same considering they didn't take up his 5th year option. 

 

I just looked up his percetnage of big time throws -- PFF ranking of difficult throws tight windows-down the field and Jones was ranked towards the bottom and below Heinicke who isn't hot in that category either.   It fits what I've seen from him over his career.  I've said before I love him on the first level throws, hits his WRs in stride.  His screens to Barkley are things of beauty and I don't mean that sarcastically.  

 

Daniel Jones IMO was having a sneaky bad career as for clutch play in big games.  He has some of that vibe that some stick on Kirk but he seems to get a pass from the national media on that so it didn't get that noticed.  Terrible in prime time games.  Not the dude I want to see with the ball in his hands in big moments, not awful on that front, had moments, but overall "meh" in critical games IMO.

 

I'll double down that I would like the Giants to have to overpay Daniel Jones, that is get 40 million a season.  If they get him on a cheapisth deal, lets say low 20s, I wouldn't like it.  Neither scenario is a nighmare IMO.  The way I see Daniel Jones is average QB, above average runner.   Like Aex Smith in KC.  And that is if Daniel Jones is on a new trajectory and the past career (before this season) isn't prologue.

 

If this relatively tunrover free season ends up being a one off and he returns to his turnover ways, then IMO below average QB, above average runner.   And he was better this year as to clutch play in comebacks.  So is this the beginning of a climb for Daniel or a one off?  Don't know.  We are about to find off.  But keep in mind the Giants didn't take the 5 year option with Jones before this season.  That wasn't because they've mostly liked what they've seen thus far.

 

To me the rise and fall of Daniel Jones in the playoffs exposed two things.

 

A.  Heinicke isn't good and closer to stinks than being good.  The Vikings haven't just made Daniel Jones look like Joe Montana but just about every QB in the 2nd half including Mike White, and Mac Jones. 

 

If you guys recall a lot of Mike White hype was happening for a bit, a chunk of that was post his performance against the Vikings just like it was for Daniel Jones. Only dude in the 2nd half of this season that I can recall struggiling against the Vikings is Taylor.  And he really struggled.  Also the Giants defense is ranked bottom tier, plenty of teams ripped them apart.  But they thwarted Taylor and our offense. 

 

B.  The Giants own this team, the way the Eagles own the Giants and its really odd but its going on for seemingly forever, its not just Daniel Jones who has owned us.  The Giants look mortal playing most other teams.  I know I watch most of their games because of my in-laws.  My point is this gives an inflated view of who we think the Giants are especially when you see them perform well for a change on the national stage in another game.   They didn't beat anyone in the NFC East except for us.    The other two teams competiting with them for that last playoff spot -- the Seahawks and Lions tore them apart.  But they have our number, its weird.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

My guess is they franchise Jones and pay him 32 million and try to negotiate from there.  Early indications is Jones isn't giving a hometown discount.   But will see.

 

It wouldn't shock me if he gets 35-40 million.  Barkley is a FA, too.  QB market is inflated and becomes more so every off season.  Some like to say just you watch it will break on the non-elite QBs, teams won't overpay anymore, but that hasn't happened.  It's really only happened with the veteran sort of "meh" or unsexy type of QBs. The Dalton types.  

 

Dudes like Sheehan who IMO are taking which I find to be a hipster position that the Giants are here to stay and they are really good.  He was on that track 2 years ago about them but then backed off when he fell apart.  But its not only him its others in the national media who seem to worship Daboll. 

 

Heck the media literally asked a question to Daball after the playoff win that made him reference if he walks on water. 

 

Part of that narrative about them rising is how much cap space they have.  But to my math if they just resign Barkley and Jones most of their cap is gone.  And conversely once we release Wentz, we will have one of the higher numbers of free cap room.

 

Don't get me wrong, I indeed think Daboll is a good coach.  I like Schoen their GM.  I think its a competent team.  But I do think the national media is a bit carried away with them.  They won 9 games and one of those wins was handed to them by the refs.  

 

They basically had a season like ours.  They have a better QB than we do.  Their O line was ranked 30th by PFF.  They don't have good weapons on offense.  Their defense was ranked towards the bottom.  Yes Daboll coached them up to basically have a 500 season with a "meh" roster.  And that's commendable.  But I think some are carried away with them.

 

The most presumptous part of the Giants narrative IMO that I find by some in the media is the assumption that everything that was weak on the Giants roster will be automatically strong now because they have the off season to fix it and uber cap room to do it.  That's another reaon why Daniel Jones getting a fat contract wouldn't be the end of the world.  They have a lot to fix IMO and it will be tougher to do that without much cap.

 

https://nypost.com/2023/01/21/giants-season-ends-with-lopsided-nfl-playoff-loss-to-eagles/

 

Jones endured a rough final act, passing for only 135 yards and firing an interception late in the first quarter when his former teammate, cornerback James Bradberry, undercut Darius Slayton’s route.

Jones has steadfastly refused to discuss his future with the Giants and after this game he was given two opportunities to state he wants to return. He declined to make his wishes known.

 

“Yeah, I think we’ll get into that down the road,’’ Jones said. “I think at this point this is still very fresh, this season, this loss. We’ll take some time to regroup and think through that going forward.’’

Asked if his offseason goal is to remain with the Giants, Jones added, “Yeah, I mean I think, like I said, we’ll cross that bridge when we get there. I fully enjoyed playing here. I appreciate all those guys in the locker room, it’s a special group of guys, and I really enjoyed being a part of it, so we’ll figure out where that goes.’’

Edited January 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am sort of play it medium at least in my mind  when it comes to the Giants and Daniel Jones.  As I mentioned, I watched most of their games every year.

 

A.  I am not with the crowd that hey the Giants found their dude and we are just homers for not recognizing that Giants found the right dude.   He might not be elite but he's good enough.

 

B.  I am also not in the Daniel Jones "meh" crowd but i get it, i am not a mile away from that thought.  To me its TBD, i was in the "meh" crowd before this season.  And clearly the Giants felt the same considering they didn't take up his 5th year option. 

 

I just looked up his percetnage of big time throws -- PFF ranking of difficult throws tight windows-down the field and Jones was ranked towards the bottom and below Heinicke who isn't hot in that category either.   It fits what I've seen from him over his career.  I've said before I love him on the first level throws, hits his WRs in stride.  His screens to Barkley are things of beauty and I don't mean that sarcastically.  

 

Daniel Jones IMO was having a sneaky bad career as for clutch play in big games.  He has some of that vibe that some stick on Kirk but he seems to get a pass from the national media on that so it didn't get that noticed.  Terrible in prime time games.  Not the dude I want to see with the ball in his hands in big moments, not awful on that front, had moments, but overall "meh" in critical games IMO.

 

I'll double down that I would like the Giants to have to overpay Daniel Jones, that is get 40 million a season.  If they get him on a cheapisth deal, lets say low 20s, I wouldn't like it.  Neither scenario is a nighmare IMO.  The way I see Daniel Jones is average QB, above average runner.   Like Aex Smith in KC.  And that is if Daniel Jones is on a new trajectory and the past career (before this season) isn't prologue.

 

If this relatively tunrover free season ends up being a one off and he returns to his turnover ways, then IMO below average QB, above average runner.   And he was better this year as to clutch play in comebacks.  So is this the beginning of a climb for Daniel or a one off?  Don't know.  We are about to find off.  But keep in mind the Giants didn't take the 5 year option with Jones before this season.  That wasn't because they've mostly liked what they've seen thus far.

 

To me the rise and fall of Daniel Jones in the playoffs exposed two things.

 

A.  Heinicke isn't good and closer to stinks than being good.  The Vikings haven't just made Daniel Jones look like Joe Montana but just about every QB in the 2nd half including Mike White, and Mac Jones. 

 

If you guys recall a lot of Mike White hype was happening for a bit, a chunk of that was post his performance against the Vikings just like it was for Daniel Jones. Only dude in the 2nd half of this season that I can recall struggiling against the Vikings is Taylor.  And he really struggled.  Also the Giants defense is ranked bottom tier, plenty of teams ripped them apart.  But they thwarted Taylor and our offense. 

 

B.  The Giants own this team, the way the Eagles own the Giants and its really odd but its going on for seemingly forever, its not just Daniel Jones who has owned us.  The Giants look mortal playing most other teams.  I know I watch most of their games because of my in-laws.  My point is this gives an inflated view of who we think the Giants are especially when you see them perform well for a change on the national stage in another game.   They didn't beat anyone in the NFC East except for us.    The other two teams competiting with them for that last playoff spot -- the Seahawks and Lions tore them apart.  But they have our number, its weird.

Remember, they don’t HAVE to pay him any more than $34.5M max next season as that’s the non-exclusive tag. I doubt they pay him more. If they do they are kind of… dumb. So if they are paying him $40M NEXT season they have made a strategic blunder, imo.

[goskins10]

19 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Remember, they don’t HAVE to pay him any more than $34.5M max next season as that’s the non-exclusive tag. I doubt they pay him more. If they do they are kind of… dumb. So if they are paying him $40M NEXT season they have made a strategic blunder, imo.

 

The following numbers assume $34.5M is the tag number. I saw $32.5M but it's all a guess untll they run the numbers. But all are relative to what the actual number mayt be so the point is still the same.

 

By not picking up the 5th yr option, they now have to either pay him what he wants, tag him, or let him go. Jones can force that issue. If they tag him this year Jones will force them to tag him next year. If not, he is an idiot since the tag number then becomes close to $41.4M. That's $75.9M over 2 yrs (approximate) or about $38M/yr not $34.5M. For Jones camp that has to be the starting number. There is no reason for Jones to sign for anything less and it should be more. He will get more on the open market not because he is worth it but because the QB market is just that high. And the Giants will have to pay unless they are Ok letting him go either now or afdter 2 yrs for nothing except a compesatory pick - yes it's a 3rd but really a 4th since it's at the end of the 3rd.  

 

So the Giants offer has to start at $38M.yr and at least 3 yrs fully garanteed or Jones camp makes them tag him which is $38.5M fully gauranteed over 2 yrs with the only risk being him getting injured in 2023. But that risk has weighed less and less into players thinking and signing contracts as time has gone on. My guess is if they want him to stay in NY for more than 2 yrs (they may not so there is that), they will have to pay him about $42M/yr for 3 yrs fully gauranteed. I do not think he is worth that so I hope they do it. 

 

I am still in the camp that he is not worth franchise money so I love the hole they have dug. He had a nice year for him but still was fairly pedestrain and whenever Barkley had a below average game Jones could not carry them. The Vikings game was a mirage. Vikes D is horrendous. They hid it the front half of the season but got exposed after that. We are only team in that stretch that made them look like world beaters. 

 

I think the Giants have dug themselves a hole by not picking up his option. Even if he had a bad year he becomes an expensive back-up but you still own the leverage for a long term deal. Only way out now is if Jones decides to play nice and give them a discount. I do not see any way that happens. 

[Koolblue13]

Opinion about Jones after playing the Commanders "Pay him franchise money"

 

Opinion after playing a historically great defense after a week of rest, in the playoffs "he stinks and should be cut"

 

I'd happily pay Jones.

[Going Commando]

Big picture with the Giants is, if Evan Neal develops like Andrew Thomas did, and they keep Barkley and Jones, then they are going to have a very similar set up to the good Giants teams of the late aughts where it was always about them grinding you down with that strong OL, elite RB, good coaching, and steady presence at quarterback.  It's a formula that has proven to work for them.  That has me worried about them.  I would much rather have them be unstable at QB and shuffling coaches than see them overpay Jones and achieve stability.

[Warhead36]

8 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Big picture with the Giants is, if Evan Neal develops like Andrew Thomas did, and they keep Barkley and Jones, then they are going to have a very similar set up to the good Giants teams of the late aughts where it was always about them grinding you down with that strong OL, elite RB, good coaching, and steady presence at quarterback.  It's a formula that has proven to work for them.  That has me worried about them.  I would much rather have them be unstable at QB and shuffling coaches than see them overpay Jones and achieve stability.

Yeah I'm just not sure that formula works for sustaining success at the absolute highest levels. Especially since you're banking on an elite RB and those guys tend to fall off hard and fast.

 

I think Jones has developed into a good QB but the biggest trap is paying a good QB elite money. 

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Opinion about Jones after playing the Commanders "Pay him franchise money"

 

Opinion after playing a historically great defense after a week of rest, in the playoffs "he stinks and should be cut"

 

I'd happily pay Jones.

 

That may be true for some but I have been very consistent with Jones. I do NOT think he is worth franchise money and I never have. Lot's of guys have better years during a contract season. And still he had 3200 yds with 15 TDs and 5 int - decent but not exactly stellar. Yes, he ran better than he has - 708 yds. But he can;t keep that up. He will get hurt. 

 

His comp % overall was up, but when you dig deeper he was really up and down and not just based on the level of D. He had highs of about 80% against Wash, Indy and TN but also had lows in the 50%s and low 60%s against Chicago, Seattle, Detroit and Dallas. 

 

Buit to each thier own. I hope they sign him long term. I think it will be a mistake. My position has never changed. 

Edited January 22, 2023 by goskins10

[Koolblue13]

6 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

That may bre true for some but I have been very sonsistent with Jones. I do NOT think he is worth franchise money and I never have. Lot's of guys have better years during a contract season. And still he had 3200 yds with 15 TDs and 5 int - decent but not exactly stellar. Yes, he ran better than he has - 708 yds. But he can;t keep that up. He will get hurt. 

 

His comp % overall was up, but when you did deeper he was really up and down and not just based on the level of D. He had highs of about 80% against Wash, Indy and TN but also had lows in the 50%s and low 60%s against Chicago, Seattle, Detroit and Dallas. 

 

Buit to each thier own. I hope they sign him long term. I think it will be a mistake. My position has never changed. 

I would take Jones and Pay him. At least before Howell popped the Cowboys anyway.

 

I hop he walks from the Giants.

[method man]

Unless the Giants become surprise players on the Lamar market or become the favorites to get Carr (which I don’t see happening), they will have to bring Jones back, at least on the tag. Given their win over the Vikings, they pick 25th and don’t have the draft capital to move up for a QB

[Koolblue13]

Giants are going to let Barkley walk and draft Bijan and use the saved money to keep Jones long term.

[Going Commando]

11 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah I'm just not sure that formula works for sustaining success at the absolute highest levels. Especially since you're banking on an elite RB and those guys tend to fall off hard and fast.

 

I think Jones has developed into a good QB but the biggest trap is paying a good QB elite money. 

 

I'm not sure I agree with your second statement.  I think the biggest trap is constantly shuffling the deck at QB (and subsequently coach).  That's how you end up at the bottom of your division for all but a couple seasons over multiple decades.  You are always hanging over the edge of the cliff when you have uncertainty at QB, and even just having an Eli at the con can be enough to keep everyone's job safe long enough to build a championship caliber team.  It's a position where stability matters as much as upside. 

 

IMO Hurts and Dak are limited QBs who are a clear step down from the Mahomes/Burrow/Allen/Herbert elite tier of talent and playmaking ability at the position, but Philly and Dallas have gone all in with them, built their teams around them, and each are distressingly close to winning a championship now.  The most important thing for a team builder to do is make a decision at QB, find someone you trust to stabilize the position, and then start building around them.

[KDawg]

39 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Big picture with the Giants is, if Evan Neal develops like Andrew Thomas did, and they keep Barkley and Jones, then they are going to have a very similar set up to the good Giants teams of the late aughts where it was always about them grinding you down with that strong OL, elite RB, good coaching, and steady presence at quarterback.  It's a formula that has proven to work for them.  That has me worried about them.  I would much rather have them be unstable at QB and shuffling coaches than see them overpay Jones and achieve stability.

I’m with you. They played a top 3 team in the League and they kind of fell into their second round playoff game. They are a decent team on the rise. The fact they were there speaks wonders to what they are doing.

 

Jones having a bad game doesn’t back me off my stance that you have to pay stable QBs. Not doing so usually hurts non-perennial strong teams more.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

45 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Big picture with the Giants is, if Evan Neal develops like Andrew Thomas did, and they keep Barkley and Jones, then they are going to have a very similar set up to the good Giants teams of the late aughts where it was always about them grinding you down with that strong OL, elite RB, good coaching, and steady presence at quarterback.  It's a formula that has proven to work for them.  That has me worried about them.  I would much rather have them be unstable at QB and shuffling coaches than see them overpay Jones and achieve stability.

 

 

The reason the Giants were in the playoffs:

 

 

 

I'm not worried.

 

 

[Chump Bailey]

13 hours ago, RWJ said:

@Skinsinparadise @KDawg @CapsSkins @HigSkin @Chump BaileyWho do you all like as a cheap backup vet QB.  I know it's hard to say w/o any OC at this time.  If I had to pick a QB that I like on the cheap that I think fits and can be good, I like both, Stidham and Minshew.  I also would like to see us draft Fresno State QB Jake Haener in the very late 4th/early 5th if he is available.

 

 

Seattle will likely keep him but for me I'd take a shot at Drew Lock. I like Haener too but right now I'm getting interested in TCU's QB Max Duggan, BYU's Jaren Hall and I'm not quite sure what to think about UCLA QB Dorian Thompson-Robinson. 

[method man]

38 minutes ago, Chump Bailey said:

 

Seattle will likely keep him but for me I'd take a shot at Drew Lock. I like Haener too but right now I'm getting interested in TCU's QB Max Duggan, BYU's Jaren Hall and I'm not quite sure what to think about UCLA QB Dorian Thompson-Robinson. 

Lock is not staying in Seattle and he is a FA I believe. I’d take him as a vet minimum #3 but don’t really want him. Something is missing between the ears with that guy
 

One of my reports is a BYU grad and he isn’t very high on Hall. DTR is a baller but he lacks arm strength. I’d take both guys in the 6th or 7th, along with Bennett and others.

Edited January 22, 2023 by method man

[NickyJ]

1 hour ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

The reason the Giants were in the playoffs:

 

 

 

I'm not worried.

 

 

That isn't the reason the Giants are in the playoffs. That's the reason why we didn't get try to make a desperate 2 point conversion to tie them to get to overtime. We'd have won if we had a better quarterback who didn't make us live and die on a referee's call.

 

The Giants made the playoffs and won their first round game. We can clown on them like we did with Eli and his mediocrity, but all it takes is a handful of games on a hot streak and then you're defeating an undefeated team in the Super Bowl.

 

It's not something I'd want to get Jones for, but we haven't gotten the last laugh on many things since 1991.

Edited January 22, 2023 by NickyJ

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

I didn't see enough from Howell to say that he can be a franchise QB but I also didn't see anything to say that he can't. Rolling the dice with him as our starter in 2023 is, to me, very clearly the most sensible plan. Maybe you find out that you already have your franchise QB, maybe he's not quite there yet but he shows you enough to give him another season, or maybe he stinks and we have a high pick in the 2024 draft to go out and get a top QB prospect.

 

The problem is that Ron needs to win next season or he'll likely be fired. Not sure he'll have the stomach to bet his career on Howell.