The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[samy316]

1 hour ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

The reason the Giants were in the playoffs:

 

 

 

I'm not worried.

 

 

 

2 things:

 

First of all, it's a terrible reflection on this team that they could only tie in the first game in NY, then gag like chocking dogs at home in primetime to a less talented team.  Those calls in the pic don't matter.  We got some bad calls, so what?  There are bad calls in games all throughout the NFL on a weekly basis.  The real story in that game is failing to score more than 12 points at home in a primetime game after a bye AND having faced said team two weeks before, with two weeks to prepare.  They get no sympathy for how that game turned out.  By the way, even IF they got that TD and scored the two point conversion to tie that game, there's no guarantee that they woud've won that game.

 

Second of all, we STILL lost to Cleveland with the playoffs on the line.  We had ANOTHER chance to win a game at home against a lesser talented team and gagged AGAIN.  We didn't deserve the playoffs, and going 0-3-1 in December & January proves that point.  Winning that meaningless Cowboys game in the finale doesn't count.

 

The Giants are a lesser talented team then Washington, but their future looks brighter than ours clearly.  They have an outstanding coach, a very smart GM/front office AND they have about $60 Million of cap space to play with in the offseason.  The Daniel Jones issue will be resolved in the offseason, but even if they sign him to a contract, we haven't beaten this dude when it matters, and they'll improve their offense with that extra cap space.  We now have the worst coach in the division by far AND no QB.  We're back to being bottom dwellers in the NFCE.  Hopefully our new owner will clean house in 2023 and get this team back to relevancy.

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by samy316

[Califan007 The Constipated]

43 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

That isn't the reason the Giants are in the playoffs. That's the reason why we didn't get try to make a desperate 2 point conversion to tie them to get to overtime. We'd have won if we had a better quarterback who didn't make us live and die on a referee's call.

 

The Giants made the playoffs and won their first round game. We can clown on them like we did with Eli and his mediocrity, but all it takes is a handful of games on a hot streak and then you're defeating an undefeated team in the Super Bowl.

 

It's not something I'd want to get Jones for, but we haven't gotten the last laugh on many things since 1991.

-Why is a 2-pt conversion to tie a game “desperate” while an extra point to tie a game never is? It’s not a Hail Mary. 
 

-When a team needs two ref screw-ups to beat a Taylor Heinicke team, there is nothing to “fear” about them. That’s what I was responding to. That was my point.

[FootballZombie]

Every other team in the Div will have their long term QB situation locked in after this offseason. The Gs will roll w/ Jones, Philly has Hurts and Dallas has Dak. Until we sort out our QB situation we are gonna be swinging up for a long time.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

53 minutes ago, samy316 said:

 

2 things:

 

First of all, it's a terrible reflection on this team that they could only tie in the first game in NY, then gag like chocking dogs at home in primetime to a less talented team.  Those calls in the pic don't matter.  We got some bad calls, so what?  There are bad calls in games all throughout the NFL on a weekly basis.  The real story in that game is failing to score more than 12 points at home in a primetime game after a bye AND having faced said team two weeks before, with two weeks to prepare.  They get no sympathy for how that game turned out.  By the way, even IF they got that TD and scored the two point conversion to tie that game, there's no guarantee that they woud've won that game.

 

Second of all, we STILL lost to Cleveland with the playoffs on the line.  We had ANOTHER chance to win a game at home against a lesser talented team and gagged AGAIN.  We didn't deserve the playoffs, and going 0-3-1 in December & January proves that point.  Winning that meaningless Cowboys game in the finale doesn't count.

 

The Giants are a lesser talented team then Washington, but their future looks brighter than ours clearly.  They have an outstanding coach, a very smart GM/front office AND they have about $60 Million of cap space to play with in the offseason.  The Daniel Jones issue will be resolved in the offseason, but even if they sign him to a contract, we haven't beaten this dude when it matters, and they'll improve their offense with that extra cap space.  We now have the worst coach in the division by far AND no QB.  We're back to being bottom dwellers in the NFCE.  Hopefully our new owner will clean house in 2023 and get this team back to relevancy.

 

 

- All bad calls are not equal. Missing a blatant PI call in the end zone...on the last offensive play of the game...with the playoffs on the line...and when the league even said it should have been called...is not the same as missing a block in the back on a 12 yard run in the 2nd quarter.

 

- My post was not about us--I didn't even mention us making the playoffs. My post was about the Giants and some insane fear we're supposed to have when it comes to them. But this does illustrate something I was feeling--that all the praise of the Giants on this thread is mostly based on two things:

 

1) That they beat an overrated Vikings team

2) That praising the Giants is seen as another way of putting down this team

 

You went straight for #2 lol...

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Califan007 The Constipated

[samy316]

22 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

- All bad calls are not equal. Missing a blatant PI call in the end zone...on the last offensive play of the game...with the playoffs on the line...and when the league even said it should have been called...is not the same as missing a block in the back on a 12 yard run in the 2nd quarter.

 

- My post was not about us--I didn't even mention us making the playoffs. My post was about the Giants and some insane fear we're supposed to have when it comes to them. But this does illustrate something I was feeling--that all the praise of the Giants on this thread is mostly based on two things:

 

1) That they beat an overrated Vikings team

2) That praising the Giants is seen as another way of putting down this team

 

You went straight for #2 lol...

 

 

 

I don’t mean to put this team down, but they make it really easy.  It sucks seeing teams that were worse than us for years suddenly catch up to and pass us with ease.  All the Giants did was hire a new offensive minded coach and a GM from a winning team, and they did in one season what we couldn’t do the last 17 seasons, which is won one freaking playoff game.

 

It seems so simple, but for this team, doing the simple things seems like an impossible task.  We seem to always stay right in that mediocre sweet spot of 7-9 wins year after year, while every other team is able to have one 11 win season and play for conference championships.  Did you know that if the Cowboys win tonight against the 49ers, that will leave just 3 teams in the entire NFL without a Conference Championship appearance since our last Superbowl.  Guess which team is amongst those 3?  If you just narrow it down to the NFC, barring a Cowboys win tonight it’ll just be 2, (Us and the Lions).  What a pathetic franchise we’ve become.  I can’t wait until March, when we hopefully have a new owner, and start anew.  No other franchise deserves it more.

Edited January 22, 2023 by samy316

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

4 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

That may be true for some but I have been very consistent with Jones. I do NOT think he is worth franchise money and I never have. Lot's of guys have better years during a contract season. And still he had 3200 yds with 15 TDs and 5 int - decent but not exactly stellar. Yes, he ran better than he has - 708 yds. But he can;t keep that up. He will get hurt. 

 

His comp % overall was up, but when you dig deeper he was really up and down and not just based on the level of D. He had highs of about 80% against Wash, Indy and TN but also had lows in the 50%s and low 60%s against Chicago, Seattle, Detroit and Dallas. 

 

Buit to each thier own. I hope they sign him long term. I think it will be a mistake. My position has never changed. 

I rather pay geno smith 32 mil a year than Jones. And smith ain’t worth that money either. 

[kingdaddy]

2 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

Every other team in the Div will have their long term QB situation locked in after this offseason. The Gs will roll w/ Jones, Philly has Hurts and Dallas has Dak. Until we sort out our QB situation we are gonna be swinging up for a long time.

We got our guy...

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, samy316 said:

I don’t mean to put this team down, but they make it really easy.  It sucks seeing teams that were worse than us for years suddenly catch up to and pass us with ease.  All the Giants did was hire a new offensive minded coach and a GM from a winning team, and they did in one season what we couldn’t do the last 17 seasons, which is won one freaking playoff game.

 

It seems so simple, but for this team, doing the simple things seems like an impossible task.  We seem to always stay right in that mediocre sweet spot of 7-9 wins year after year, while every other team is able to have one 11 win season and play for conference championships.  Did you know that if the Cowboys win tonight against the 49ers, that will leave just 3 teams in the entire NFL without a Conference Championship appearance since our last Superbowl.  Guess which team is amongst those 3?  If you just narrow it down to the NFC, barring a Cowboys win tonight it’ll just be 2, (Us and the Lions).  What a pathetic franchise we’ve become.  I can’t wait until March, when we hopefully have a new owner, and start anew.  No other franchise deserves it more.

I mean yeah, but you're underestimating how much of a pile of lard working for this organization is. Even if we go by an "all he does" type argument, do you know what kind of pressure it can be if Dan likes a player like McNabb or RG3 or Haskins or Wentz or whoever else (or dislikes Cousins). Do you know the (possibly unmentioned) pressure to have that guy do well. I' not saying Ron wasn't all in on Wentz or excusing Turner for his role in it, but there are two constant themes since Dan's been here - 1 him picking the QB and 2 them having to be unreasonably bad to even get a chance at the next guy starting. And normally the next guy isn't even that good but him being mediocre ramps up the team enough for us to win 7-9 games. (Banks, ?Campbell/Collins?, Cousins, McCoy, Heinicke). This is one of the reasons I'm so in  love with low round QBs - its because I always think that a first rounder is tainted with Snyder stench and so needs the qualities that Snyder doesn't scout for (like leadership and work ethic and moxie). I don't despise a lot of people and I surely don't make Idols out of them but Snyder has singlehandedly ruined this franchise because he "wasn't having fun"

2 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

- All bad calls are not equal. Missing a blatant PI call in the end zone...on the last offensive play of the game...with the playoffs on the line...and when the league even said it should have been called...is not the same as missing a block in the back on a 12 yard run in the 2nd quarter.

 

- My post was not about us--I didn't even mention us making the playoffs. My post was about the Giants and some insane fear we're supposed to have when it comes to them. But this does illustrate something I was feeling--that all the praise of the Giants on this thread is mostly based on two things:

 

1) That they beat an overrated Vikings team

2) That praising the Giants is seen as another way of putting down this team

 

You went straight for #2 lol...

 

 

 

And they took at least 8 points probably 9 points off the board. THats game right there. Its not just a normal penalty, its taking points off the board and them telling us "do it again"

[Darrell Green Fan]

I don't want to hear about bad calls. Yes TM thought he got the OK from the ref, it's still his responsibility to line up correctly.   Even if they got that PI call they still needed to score, then convert a 2 pt conversion just to get to overtime.  

[Skinsinparadise]

Digesting some of the posts here. I don't think the Giants have a linear set up.  I think it can go either way for them.

 

Daniel Jones IMO isn't a straight forward move if he commands major money.  I do agree that its better to overpay for a decent QB than be in QB hell like us though.  But I don't think its the opposite extreme either that the Giants are set in a good way for a bright future if they have Daniel Jones on a long term contract at 35 million or so a year.  It's possible they are.  But IMHO its as up in the air as the Raiders deal with Derek Carr or the Cards with Kyler Murray, both teams who I think if they had to do it all over, wouldn't have at that type of money.

 

The Giants IMO are benefitting from recency effect perception wise.  Their season wasn't that different from Rivera's first season here.  And yeah I usually don't cry over refs but that win over us was unimpressive at best, questionable at worst.  Yes, it exposed how bad Heinicke is and this offense.  But also exposed that the Giants aren't hot either.  I watched more than half of their games this season.  IMO they are a below average team with above average coaching.   They basically play Marty Ball, try to kill the clock and win with Barkley and Jones running the ball.

 

Yeah if Evan Neal who by most metrics had a poor season and instead becomes elite like Andrew Thomas, yep sure that would set them up.  I get the point, the dude is young.  But I was not as high on Neal as I was on Thomas.  I doubt Neal goes from bad to All Pro.  But on the off chance that happened, I agree they'd have two great bookends.  The Giants for years have tried to fix their O line.  It's still not good.  Ranked 30th by PFF.  But Thomas is a gem for sure.

 

It's cool that Leonard Williams said he'd take a hometown discount to play side by side with Dexter Lawrence.   But I get the sense reading various narratives that Barkley and Daniel Jones aren't giving a hometown discount.  Their D line is good, especially their interior.  Overall their defense isn't good.  Ranked towards the bottom in both yards and points allowed.  Again they looked good against our offense, but who didn't? 

 

Their cap situation is big time misleading unless they are saying bye to Daniel Jones and starting over.  Of all the narratives, the cap one is the one that annoys me the most.    It's sort of to me cue the violins and sell the romance of the Giants, be damn with the facts.

 

Their Qb, their RB who is their best player, their top 2 Wrs, some of their interior O line all not under contract.  We are likely in a better cap situation than the Giants for 2023.  They get some cap value back by releasing Golladay but by and large even if all the Giants do is franchise Daniel if my math is right there goes 57% of their available cap.   If Barkley gets a top of the market contract for a RB, that will likely take most of the rest.   And the Giants weapon wise is already weak, they are going to also let their top WRs depart in FA?  Maybe but i doubt it.   

 

My point is that cap will likely get consumed really fast.  The cap numbers without considering who is under contract and not under contract can be very misleading. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Darrell Green Fan]

I don't see Daniel Jones signing for $25 million, it will be closer to $40 million.  They would be foolish IMO to give Barkley a massive deal at this point in his career but if they don't they lose their best player.

 

No I don't see any way they improve, and we were right there with them with terrible QB play. 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I don't see Daniel Jones signing for $25 million, it will be closer to $40 million.  They would be foolish IMO to give Barkley a massive deal at this point in his career but if they don't they lose their best player.

 

No I don't see any way they improve, and we were right there with them with terrible QB play. 

 

Agree, they may franchise him as i mentioned earlier but then they are on the Kirk track where they might risk losing him.  I can see a compromise at 35 million.

 

This IMO is a better roster than theirs almost across the board with the exception of QB.

 

And Jones playing decently by relying on the running game to lead the way while he himself uses his wheels -- actually makes me feel good about Howell's chances.  My gut is Howell can replicate that sort of play and he's being paid less than a million.  Will see. 

 

I'd love for Howell to have Daniel Jones's size.  But IMO judging by college play, Howell's mobility is in the same league as Jones-- Howell a bit more of a tougher runner and Jones with the better long speed.   Howell has the better arm strength IMO. 

 

I think they have to keep Barkley.  The team runs through him.  They also have to stay lucky as for Jones and Barkley staying healthy -- this season they had good luck on that front in past seasons not so much.  Neither dude are known for durability. 

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

To expand some of the Daniel Jones success this season makes me feel more confident about Howell is IMO there is common ground with the two QBs.

 

I thought Jones would end up a low tier starter, not a bust after watching him at Duke.  He ended up better than that.  But IMO he was trending downward until this season.   His 4th season.  Clearly the Giants thought the same since they didn't pick up his option.

 

What I liked about the Duke version of Jones is he was a tough SOB, he could take hits and keep fighting.  He also was sneaky mobile.  Both characteristics that Howell has in common with Jones.  What I wondered about both QBs was pocket presence.  They both took a lot of hits in the pocket and sometimes those hits on my observation were on them.

 

Recalling my feelings about both predraft, I liked Howell though over Jones mainly for these reasons. Howell can make some wicked 2nd-3rd level throws and has a rocket of an arm.  Jones IMO majored in first level throws -- hitting WRs in the flat in stride with just average arm strength.   Howell also in college had more guts to throw the ball down the field than Daniel did.   But like I said I wish Howell had Daniel Jones' size.

 

Daboll basically ran the same formula we did with Heinicke. Run the ball.  Kill the clock.   The one twist he used that we didn't was use the QB as a running weapon to supplement the run game. Their QB is good with RPOs and had the guts to run and our QB wasn't good with RPOs and didn't like to run.  

 

My point is Howell is good running RPOs and has the guts to keep the ball and take off.  If the idea is to ease him into the offense by running the ball and taking the onus off of the QB.  Jones threw just a little over 3000 yards and only had 15 TDs.    They ran him though more.  I think as Howell learns the ropes, he has a better chance to run an offense like this and while in some ways he and Jones are very different QBs -- they do have some things in common:  mobility, strong with RPOs, tough SOBs.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Chris 44]

If we going to run with Howell get him a stud, go   to tight end and invest heavily in the OL

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

The tweet below to me is both right and wrong but more wrong.  And I see the point here and there from others on twitter and talk radio from fans so it feels topical.

 

A. It's wrong in this way IMO. The Giants didn't win via the old school formula because it was only half the formula.  They ran the ball well all season but their defense is bad, not even average, they are bad.  And their O line is bad too albiet I'll give them credit for using draft capital to improve it.   Old school Marty ball isn't hey we run the ball well and other units suck.    So the Giants having some success with this formula is impressive considering its far from the formula, its just part of the formula.

 

B.  The reason why I think Cooley said with Daniel Jones we might be a SB team this season wasn't because he was blown away by Jones but because he likes this roster so if you add just decent QB play to the mix he thougt they can win.  

 

C. I don't believe Ron (considering other statements he's made) believes that running > passing.  But if you don't have the QB, then this is the better formula.  If we had Joe Burrow, I really doubt they'd run a ground and pound offense.  But when you got below average QB play its the best model for obvious reasons.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Daniel.redskins]

I disagree with a lot of the comments. The Giants are better than us. They are better in the trenches and obviously have a much better QB. But I wouldn't call Jones a top 10 QB, he's more around 10-15. 

This off-season is huge for the Giants. If they franchise tag Jones then they will be in a bad Kirk Cousins like situation. If they can sign Jones for 25M per year, they can build around him and will be competitive for the next decade. If Jones' agent goes for top 10 money, then the Giants will be in a bad Derek Carr like situation. 

To get back on topic, I think Howell has a higher upside than Jones. He has a stronger arm and is harder to tackle. We desperately need a line to help him though.  

[MrJL]

we beat the Eagles once with the the type of team Rivera and Mayhew want to build.  I believe the Giants wee 0-3 vs them

 

on a separate subject, I've seen a few people talking about tanking fo Caleb Wilson in 2024.

 

I don't follow college football, but I know a little bit and I just saw what team he's on so

 

Why the hell are people talking about drafting a USC QB at the number 1 pick as a good thing?!

[Command The 414]

56 minutes ago, Daniel.redskins said:

I disagree with a lot of the comments. The Giants are better than us. They are better in the trenches and obviously have a much better QB. But I wouldn't call Jones a top 10 QB, he's more around 10-15. 

This off-season is huge for the Giants. If they franchise tag Jones then they will be in a bad Kirk Cousins like situation. If they can sign Jones for 25M per year, they can build around him and will be competitive for the next decade. If Jones' agent goes for top 10 money, then the Giants will be in a bad Derek Carr like situation. 

To get back on topic, I think Howell has a higher upside than Jones. He has a stronger arm and is harder to tackle. We desperately need a line to help him though.  

I agree with mostly everything but I wouldn’t say the Giants are better then us but they definitely are better then us when we play them (so I guess your correct) they have definitely been our torn in our side the last several seasons, just can’t seem to be able to beat them, specially when we need too

Edited January 23, 2023 by ashlynskins

[Riggo#44]

8 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

Dallas has Dak

Yes, yes they do. And they paid him a lot of money

[DiscoBob]

6 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I don't see Daniel Jones signing for $25 million, it will be closer to $40 million.  They would be foolish IMO to give Barkley a massive deal at this point in his career but if they don't they lose their best player.

 

No I don't see any way they improve, and we were right there with them with terrible QB play. 

 

We should all be praying for NY to throw massive contracts at Jones and Barkley.

 

Jones has been, and may continue to be better than what we have, but he is still a mediocre starting QB.  If they throw a bunch of money at him, I'll count it as a win for Washington.

 

[samy316]

6 minutes ago, DiscoBob said:

 

We should all be praying for NY to throw massive contracts at Jones and Barkley.

 

Jones has been, and may continue to be better than what we have, but he is still a mediocre starting QB.  If they throw a bunch of money at him, I'll count it as a win for Washington.

 

 

Except for the part where he's owned this team since being drafted by NYG.  He owned us, when the Giants were a tire fire before Daboll.  Now that they have a great offensive minded coach, and a top flight GM, Jones will continue to own us as long as he's with the Giants.

[SkinsFTW]

The Giants might not have to pay Jones more than 20-25M because what other team would be dumb enough to pay him more? (Other than possibly this one lol) It was obvious that he's only playing better and still not very good because the coaching staff is outstanding. 

 

If he goes somewhere else he's going to regress just like Josh Allen just did this year.

[Darrell Green Fan]

I don't see Daniel Jones as a top 10-15 QB, surely nowhere near #10. When they got behind the Eagles did anyone think Jones could bring them back?  He is good when he plays us but against the rest of the league he is just not that good.

 

As for Howell one thing that stood out to me was how well he got down, like Russell Wilson he has perfected the slide and hopefully like Wilson he can avoid injury.   

Edited January 23, 2023 by Darrell Green Fan

[DiscoBob]

8 hours ago, samy316 said:

 

Except for the part where he's owned this team since being drafted by NYG.  He owned us, when the Giants were a tire fire before Daboll.  Now that they have a great offensive minded coach, and a top flight GM, Jones will continue to own us as long as he's with the Giants.

 

The ownage goes back 20 years... I don't credit that to Daniel Jones.  The fact is that Jones is a beatable QB if a team is competent.  We just haven't been competent.  That doesn't stop me from hoping our division opponents settle for "meh" QBs.

[Skinsinparadise]

12 hours ago, Daniel.redskins said:

I disagree with a lot of the comments. The Giants are better than us. They are better in the trenches and obviously have a much better QB. But I wouldn't call Jones a top 10 QB, he's more around 10-15. 

This off-season is huge for the Giants. If they franchise tag Jones then they will be in a bad Kirk Cousins like situation. If they can sign Jones for 25M per year, they can build around him and will be competitive for the next decade. If Jones' agent goes for top 10 money, then the Giants will be in a bad Derek Carr like situation. 

To get back on topic, I think Howell has a higher upside than Jones. He has a stronger arm and is harder to tackle. We desperately need a line to help him though.  

 

Their O line ranked worse than ours whether its DVOA or PFF, PFF has them 10 spots below us. Watching their games they looked that bad too (as did our O ljne) except of course against our team.  If Evan Neal evolves they can be better than our O line but it wasn't last year.

 

With Chase back, I don't think their D line is better than ours but close.  Lawrence is a beast.  Leonard Williams is good, not a sack guy this year.  Thibodeux with 4 sacks, a riser for sure but wasn't as good as Chase's rookie season.  Great game against Dallas and of course his best games against us.  But otherwise decent but not a killer yet. 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Skinsinparadise