The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[kingdaddy]

I would prefer Reich over everyone else, especially with a young QB. 

[Mr. Sinister]

I am officially ready to love again. Let's get it.

[88Comrade2000]

I’ll believe it when I see it. Ron could being saying that but once he has an oc, does something else. He’s desperate so I can’t believe he would just ride with Sam.

 

Now he may not shoot for the moon and try for Carr. He will bring a veteran like Winston, Mariotta, Dalton, Bridgewater to compete with Sam for the starting job.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Fans in the building pretty sure include Matt Hurney who supposedly wsnted Herbert when he was at Carolina 

39 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

I would prefer Reich over everyone else, especially with a young QB. 

 

Doubt he's in play supposedly looking for HC opportunities

[skinny21]

Feeling upbeat about the news regarding Howell.  A little surprised about the thought (or rumor/report?) of wanting Heinicke to return, even though I wasn’t quite so sure that his knowledge of Turner’s offense was his biggest strength (though it’s certainly up there).  I’d prefer letting the OC choose his backup though, especially since a guy that knows the system is probably a bigger help to Howell.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, The Consigliere said:

That is kind of funny, I feel sort of the same way, which is odd because draft capital is so important w/this sort of thing, but if Howell is able to get the offseason reps, then the draft capital angle drops off in relevance a great deal because I tend to think the draft capital piece of prospects making it or not is more about the opportunity that it comes with then the particular meaningfulness of where they were taken in many instances. The fact that Howell can get reps as the starter for hopefully the whole summer will give him a much better chance of hitting. 

 

We do get these hints, over and over of what matters, I imagine teams are digging more and more and more into player backgrounds to dig up these details because it seems patently obvious that after physically being able to play the position, the new most important thing is the mental make up/dedication/smarts/vision/spatial awareness/decision making, just brain bit. It seems so huge, the mentality piece and what the player has inside his head. Some guys have that in spades, some simply don't. Seems clear Haskins didn't (RIP), and it was probably something that could be figured out at the time. Same deal with Ryan Leaf, probably with jeff George, maybe Jay Schreoder over here etc. Hearing the stories about Purdy everyone seems to think that Purdy was always mentally, the part, and if that's so, and if he has the physical tools, and if he's got the smarts/vision/decision making etc, why on earth was he rated so low? I get why people with ridiculous physical tools get rated high, even Josh Allen, which struck me as nuts at the time due to lack of accuracy, his physical tools were so ridiculous, if the head piece was there and the accuracy problem could be solved, he could be great, i just viewed that as aunts and balls sort of "if" and ridiculous. I would love to know where Sam Howell fits in terms of decision making, mental makeup etc. We know he has the arm, maybe not ideal height but just big enough. Does he have the decision making and the mental make up? That's probably the crux here. 

 

I give volsmet a lot of credit for this. You may recall him.  He is someone who used to pose on draft thread who has relatives who worked in the Colts FO. I was ok with Haskins on first glance watching him in real time.  Volsmet pushed me to rewatch and focus on what he did which is how did Haskins plays when things didn't break right -- under pressure, making throws outside of his comfort zone which was shallow crossers (mesh routes).  So I spent s Saturday watching him before the draft, 5 games in a row, after doing that I was out.  Volsmet and I during that day's draft thread on draft day openly rooted for Haskins to be taken before our pick so we weren't saddled with him.

 

Howell impressed me much more watching him and I watched a lot of him as I did the top 6 QBs in that draft.  I had two concerns with Howell.  1.  Pocket presence.  He seemed to take sacks, some of which I felt were a function of peripheral vision issues and or lack of feel for pressure.   2. Does his mobility translate to the NFL?  He'd often run up the a gap and just blow by defenders like he was a RB. Wasn't sure if that style worked in the NFL.   What I liked about him is he made the most wicked tough throws, deep outs, go routes, deep corner routes, etc.   Also he was a tough SOB.  As far as my concerns his pocket presence remains TBD.  But I've seen enough that IMO his mobility translates.

 

Also Haskins (RIP) personality and work habits were red flagged.  I hoped that he turned a corner after his rookie season and Rivera said he thought he turned corner.  And that was my small window of optimism about Haskins.  But I soured again on him quickly in this 2nd season as the intangible issues resurfaced.  As for Howell, no red flags as far as intangibles.  He supposedly has a very flat personality but otherwise nice guy, hard worker. 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, The Consigliere said:

 

I think Robinson is fine (responding to a different post), but I think the idea that he's an elite RB or has that potential is 100% misplaced. He's a physical chain moving, solid back, he's not an elite back, there's nothing explosive about him in my view, or particularly game changingly athletic.

 

I was plugging Robinson.  Speaking for myself, I wasn't pushing elite.  I think he's very good potentially though.  And Keim saying an agent of an offensive coordinator specifically mentioned  Robinson as a reason he wants to come to this team.  It doesn't sound crazy to me albiet it might sound that way to some especially if they just saw him as a run of the mill power back and that's all.

 

The idea that Robinson is a chain mover, solid, etc but not mkuch beyond that -- I get it, seems to be based on physical stereotypes.  It sounds intuitive. I get the idea.  It makes sense.

 

But.....

 

If you watch the dude heavily which I did, he has surprising burst and good hands.  Yes, the dude is a big RB.  And to confuse matters even further when he played especially this season after his leg was riddled with bullets, he was slower.  He's said the same. So that even furthers the stereotype. 

 

I am not saying he's explosive.  He's not.  But he's not the other extreme either.  He's not just a physical chain moving RB.  He's somewhere in the middle of those two extremes.

 

You consider yourself a numbers-analytics guy.  Lets talk that.

 

For a dude who weighed almost 230 pounds.  How about this as to his last year in Alabama

 

A. 90.4 rushing score from PFF.  90s is their score for elite

B. Ran in the low 4.5s with an 8 plus RAS score

C, Just short of 300 receiving yards, good hands

D.  22 runs for 15 plus yards, one of the most numbers of explosive runs among the RBs in that draft, same as Breece Hall by the way

E.  Not just a power-gap runner, has almost a 90 score as a zone runner from PFF

 

So while i get the idea that the dude is just some big power chain moving dude, not much else.  I think you'll be surprised when you see the dude 100% next season.  He isn't Christain McCaffrey but he isn't purely a power plodding power back either.  Like I said he has more explosiveness than what we saw. And i am betting we will see when his leg can fully heel. 

 

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/brian-robinson-jr-alabama-rb-nfl-draft-scouting-report/

Robinson’s physicality is one of the defining characteristics of his game, but the Alabama RB still has more in his athletic toolbox. He has enough long-track explosiveness to press the edges and get outside. When he has space, he can elongate his strides and reach impressive speeds.

The Crimson Tide RB can accelerate through the second level and utilize small lanes, and he isn’t too upright as a runner. Lastly, Robinson effectively carries his momentum forward in space.

 

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[LD0506]

59 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

I am officially ready to love again. Let's get it.

 

Make sure you have protection

 

[method man]

19 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I was plugging Robinson.  Speaking for myself, I wasn't pushing elite.  I think he's very good potentially though.  And Keim saying an agent of an offensive coordinator specifically mentioned  Robinson as a reason he wants to come to this team.  It doesn't sound crazy to me albiet it might sound that way to some especially if they just saw him as a run of the mill power back and that's all.

 

The idea that Robinson is a chain mover, solid, etc but not mkuch beyond that -- I get it, seems to be based on physical stereotypes.  It sounds intuitive. I get the idea.  It makes sense.

 

But.....

 

If you watch the dude heavily which I did, he has surprising burst and good hands.  Yes, the dude is a big RB.  And to confuse matters even further when he played especially this season after his leg was riddled with bullets, he was slower.  He's said the same. So that even furthers the stereotype. 

 

I am not saying he's explosive.  He's not.  But he's not the other extreme either.  He's not just a physical chain moving RB.  He's somewhere in the middle of those two extremes.

 

You consider yourself a numbers-analytics guy.  Lets talk that.

 

For a dude who weighed almost 230 pounds.  How about this as to his last year in Alabama

 

A. 90.4 rushing score from PFF.  90s is their score for elite

B. Ran in the low 4.5s with an 8 plus RAS score

C, Just short of 300 receiving yards, good hands

D.  22 runs for 15 plus yards, one of the most numbers of explosive runs among the RBs in that draft, same as Breece Hall by the way

E.  Not just a power-gap runner, has almost a 90 score as a zone runner from PFF

 

So while i get the idea that the dude is just some big power chain moving dude, not much else.  I think you'll be surprised when you see the dude 100% next season.  He isn't Christain McCaffrey but he isn't purely a power plodding power back either.  Like I said he has more explosiveness than what we saw. And i am betting we will see when his leg can fully heel. 

 

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/brian-robinson-jr-alabama-rb-nfl-draft-scouting-report/

Robinson’s physicality is one of the defining characteristics of his game, but the Alabama RB still has more in his athletic toolbox. He has enough long-track explosiveness to press the edges and get outside. When he has space, he can elongate his strides and reach impressive speeds.

The Crimson Tide RB can accelerate through the second level and utilize small lanes, and he isn’t too upright as a runner. Lastly, Robinson effectively carries his momentum forward in space.

 

 

Add to this that the lack of athletic ability across the OL meant it was a rarity for blocks to be completed at the second level

[Skinsinparadise]

47 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Feeling upbeat about the news regarding Howell.  A little surprised about the thought (or rumor/report?) of wanting Heinicke to return, even though I wasn’t quite so sure that his knowledge of Turner’s offense was his biggest strength (though it’s certainly up there).  I’d prefer letting the OC choose his backup though, especially since a guy that knows the system is probably a bigger help to Howell.

 

Thinking about it what gives me jazzed about it is that it means they are sold on him.  They could end up wrong.  But I get the sense they think they think their roster is close so for them to bet on a young QB means they like that they are seeing in practice.  And people around the team have said that is indeed the case. 

 

I noticed some (not all) of the local and national media see them not starting Howell earlier as a red flag or that they are vacilliating.  Personally I don't see it that way.  They were in a playoff hunt, it would be weird to all of a sudden start a rookie in the midst of it.   It just so happened that they were eliminated in the next to last game.  Forgot which reporter said it but one said they'd have started Howell earlier if they were eliminated earlier.

[method man]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Thinking about it what gives me jazzed about it is that it means they are sold on him.  They could end up wrong.  But I get the sense they think they think their roster is close so for them to bet on a young QB means they like that they are seeing in practice.  And people around the team have said that is indeed the case. 

 

I noticed some (not all) of the local and national media see them not starting Howell earlier as a red flag or that they are vacilliating.  Personally I don't see it that way.  They were in a playoff hunt, it would be weird to all of a sudden start a rookie in the midst of it.   It just so happened that they were eliminated in the next to last game.  Forgot which reporter said it but one said they'd have started Howell earlier if they were eliminated earlier.

The challenge with evaluating QBs in practice is that the off platform/mobility component doesn’t get tested so guys who rely on that look  worse in practice than they do in games

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, method man said:

Add to this that the lack of athletic ability across the OL meant it was a rarity for blocks to be completed at the second level

 

Yep, imagine with a dude like Scherff who is a good 2nd level blocker.  Our best 2nd level blocker IMO is Cosmi and he didn't play a heck of a lot. 

 

I am pretty fast.  I used to run track.  Heck recovering from a slight sprained knee would slow me down some let alone I can imagine getting shot twice.    He told people he wasn't the same after being shot but felt better as the season went on.  I am making an educated guess that he will regain his burst with another 8 months or so to rest his leg.

 

3 minutes ago, method man said:

The challenge with evaluating QBs in practice is that the off platform/mobility component doesn’t get tested so guys who rely on that look  worse in practice than they do in games

 

That part of the game is fairly organic.  I am not worried about him on that front, I think he's a baller when plays break down.

 

My worry about him or any rookie QB is processing a defense-protections and also their work habits.  Shanny and Gibbs liked to say work habits is the kicker especially for a QB.  I recall Grant Paulsen for example said whenever he was in the locker room in 2012, he often saw Kirk locked on his IPAD studying the playbook.  

Edited January 15, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[CapsSkins]

The risk with Howell is the ability to read defenses and shift protections. Not because he can’t do it, but because we haven’t yet seen him do it.

 

But he’s a smart guy (high Wonderlic) with a good work ethic, so I’m not too worried. Especially if the coaches scheme up QB runs for him to use as a crutch while he gets up to speed.

Edited January 15, 2023 by CapsSkins

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

13 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

The risk with Howell is the ability to read defenses and shift protections. Not because he can’t do it, but because we haven’t yet seen him do it.

 

But he’s a smart guy (high Wonderlic) with a good work ethic, so I’m not too worried. Especially if the coaches scheme up QB runs for him to use as a crutch while he gets up to speed.

With Turner not calling those slow developing plays behind a crap OL anymore..the new OC should be smart enough to scheme some quick release plays to the "strength" WR players (Even some of RG3's RO playbook). The Cowboy game was a prototype play call game for Howell. Start with that and expand.

 

I just don't get why Turner couldn't stick with stuff the players were telling him was working....

Edited January 15, 2023 by The Hangman- C_Hanburger

[CapsSkins]

12 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

With Turner not calling those slow developing plays behind a crap OL anymore..the new OC should be smart enough to scheme some quick release plays to the "strength" WR players (Even some of RG3's RO playbook). The Cowboy game was a prototype play call game for Howell. Start with that and expand.

 

I just don't get why Turner couldn't stick with stuff the players were telling him was working....

The biggest thing I’m looking for with OC is someone who can marry the run and pass game including designed QB runs and RPO concepts.

 

QB runs won’t just help Howell with keeping defenses honest, it will also give him more time to learn the new offensive system. Having a dozen go-to plays that include running plays will help serve as a safety blanket for calls as he ramps up on the more complex concepts and terminology.

[RWJ]

Baker Mayfield would be the perfect backup QB behind Howell, IMO. 

[CapsSkins]

5 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Baker Mayfield would be the perfect backup QB behind Howell, IMO. 

Seems like Baker’s agent will want to find a legit starting opportunity (or legit camp competition).

 

We want Howell to have competition too, but the idea is for him to win and start.

[DiscoBob]

37 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Baker Mayfield would be the perfect backup QB behind Howell, IMO. 

 

Baker looks a lot like Howell, just sayin'....

[kingdaddy]

41 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Baker Mayfield would be the perfect backup QB behind Howell, IMO. 

Baker has already declared he's "a starting QB". No offense but I think Baker would be a terrible backup to Howell just because of his personality. 

[RWJ]

3 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Baker has already declared he's "a starting QB". No offense but I think Baker would be a terrible backup to Howell just because of his personality. 

I like his moxie but I think he has some rough edges to smooth out and comes to DC because of his ties with Zampese and Zampese as well ls a candidate for OC too.  

[KDawg]

Man, Heinicke looks like Tom Brady compared to Lawrence tonight. 4 picks and it’s still early. Pederson may want to start running the ball.

[kingdaddy]

5 minutes ago, RWJ said:

I like his moxie but I think he has some rough edges to smooth out and comes to DC because of his ties with Zampese and Zampese as well ls a candidate for OC too.  

I asked another poster last week about turning over every stone to find a QB and would we look at Mayfield given that he's a former #1 overall pick and has looked better since he signed with the Rams. If we weren't committing to Howell I'd feel better about Mayfield but not as a backup. I don't think he'd handle being a backup well at all. I could see the Jets going for Baker as their starter, that would be an interesting spot for him. Maybe the Raiders too? We'll see where he ends up, maybe you're right and he comes here thinking he can win the job?

[RWJ]

5 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

I asked another poster last week about turning over every stone to find a QB and would we look at Mayfield given that he's a former #1 overall pick and has looked better since he signed with the Rams. If we weren't committing to Howell I'd feel better about Mayfield but not as a backup. I don't think he'd handle being a backup well at all. I could see the Jets going for Baker as their starter, that would be an interesting spot for him. Maybe the Raiders too? We'll see where he ends up, maybe you're right and he comes here thinking he can win the job?

Exactly and where he would feel the most comfortable.  Again, the moxie.  I don't think he beats out Howell but I could see him signing either a 1 year or two year deal.  If something happened to Howell, I pray not, we would have Mayfield to replace him. You never know though.  We might be looking at TH reupping with us too. 

[Thinking Skins]

19 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

If its Zampese, I'd guess good shot Heinicke is back, since they'd play in that same system I'd presume.

 

If its Shurmur, I'd guess Heinicke is a goner.    Shurmur is a WCO guy not Air Coryell. 

 

Shurmur worked for Chip Kelly who went heavy RPO, Howell ran a good chunk of RPOs in North Carolina.  RPO's also arguably not something that's Heinicke's thing.

It's funny. I read these posts on the rss feed. So I can never see who's posting, only the message. Normally I'll get through thousands of posts and not really blink an eye. Then somebody will say some thing that makes me think. And 90% of the time it's you. The other 9% is kdawg and a few times it's somebody else. I say this because I'm not picking battles with you but this made me think. 

 

1. What is Pat's system?

 

As an offensive coordinator, Shurmur has a reputation for being a creative play-caller and utilizing multiple tight ends in his offense. He also tends to use a mix of both run and pass plays to keep defenses guessing. His offenses often feature a lot of play-action and bootleg passes, and he has been known to use a lot of pre-snap motion to create mismatches and confusion for defenses. Overall, his offensive system emphasizes balance, efficiency, and execution.

 

Pat Shurmur's offensive system is not considered to be a traditional West Coast offense.

 

The West Coast offense characterized by a short passing game that relies on quick, accurate throws to receivers who are running a variety of routes, often based on the timing and rhythm of the quarterback.

 

Shurmur's offensive system is not limited to short passing, it also features a balanced approach that uses both run and pass plays, and it also emphasizes on play-action and bootleg passes.

 

It is not considered a direct descendant of the West Coast offense but it does have some similarities and it can be considered as a modern version of it, with more adaptability to different situations and personnel.

 

 

3. Shurmur and Turner

Pat Shurmur and Scott Turnero overlapped in their careers as coaches in the NFL.

 

Scott Turner served as the quarterbacks coach for the Minnesota Vikings from 2018 to 2019, during that time Pat Shurmur was the offensive coordinator for the Minnesota Vikings. Both coaches were working together to develop the offense and game plans for the team during that time period.

 

4. Is shurmur's offense more similar to Norv Turner's or Andy Reid

 

Pat Shurmur's offensive system shares some similarities with both Norv Turner's and Andy Reid's offenses, but it also has its own unique elements.

 

Norv Turner's offenses are known for featuring a vertical passing game with deep throws down the field and an emphasis on the use of tight ends and running backs as receivers.

 

Andy Reid's offenses are known for featuring a balanced approach that relies on a strong running game and quick, accurate passes, as well as a heavy use of play-action and motion.

 

Shurmur's offense also features a balanced approach that uses both run and pass plays, and it also emphasizes on play-action and bootleg passes, like Andy Reid. But it also has its own unique elements like using multiple tight-ends, which is more similar to Norv Turner's offense.

 

So Shurmur's offensive system takes elements from both Norv Turner's and Andy Reid's offenses and combines them in a unique way, while keeping a balance between the run and pass game, and using multiple tight-ends.

 

 

 

5. Is it numbers based

 

It is not clear if Pat Shurmur's offensive system is specifically "numbers based", as the term can have different meanings in football.

 

Some teams and coaches use a "numbers based" system in which they assign numerical values to certain routes, plays, or concepts in their offense, and then use those numbers to call plays in the huddle or at the line of scrimmage.

 

However, Shurmur's offense is more of a system that emphasizes on balance, efficiency, and execution, and is not limited to any specific system or philosophy. It is adaptable to different situations and personnel, and it has elements of the West Coast offense, but also has its own unique elements like using multiple tight-ends, play-action and bootleg passes.

 

So, it is not known if Shurmur's offense is specifically based on numbers or not.

 

 

 

 

6. Did he have the same offense in Philadelphia, Denver Minnesota and Cleveland

 

Pat Shurmur's offensive system is not likely to be exactly the same across all of the teams he has coached for, including the Philadelphia Eagles, Denver Broncos, Minnesota Vikings, and Cleveland Browns.

 

As an offensive coordinator or head coach, Shurmur likely tailored his system to the personnel and strengths of the specific teams he was working with. Each team has different players with different skillsets, and coaches generally adjust their system to best utilize their players' strengths. Additionally, each team may have different offensive philosophies and priorities.

 

That being said, it's likely that Shurmur's offensive system has certain core principles and concepts that have carried over from team to team, but it's also likely that he has adapted his system to best suit the players and teams he's been working with, and it's also likely that it evolves over time.

 

 

 

 

7. How have QBs done in their first year with him

 

The performance of quarterbacks in their first year working with Pat Shurmur as an offensive coordinator or head coach can vary. Here are a few examples:

 

In 2016, when Shurmur was the offensive coordinator for the Minnesota Vikings, Sam Bradford had a strong first season with the team, completing 71.6% of his passes for 3,877 yards, 20 touchdowns, and 5 interceptions.

 

In 2018, when Shurmur was the offensive coordinator for the Minnesota Vikings, Kirk Cousins had a solid first season with the team, completing 70.1% of his passes for 4,298 yards, 30 touchdowns, and 10 interceptions.

 

In 2019, Daniel Jones was a rookie when Shurmur was the head coach of the New York Giants, Jones was inserted as a starter in week 3 and finished the season with 3,027 passing yards, 24 touchdown passes, and 12 interceptions while completing 61.9% of his passes.

 

In 2020 Drew Lock, a second-year quarterback, had a mixed performance when Shurmur was the offensive coordinator of the Denver Broncos, Lock completed 63.3% of his passes for 1,020 yards, 7 touchdowns, and 3 interceptions in five games.

 

Overall, it can be seen that quarterbacks in their first year working with Shurmur have had varied levels of success, but they have generally had solid numbers. It's worth noting that the performance of a quarterback can also depend on factors such as the team's overall performance, the quality of the offensive line, and the skill level of the other players on the team.

 

 

Hopefully this taking to myself in the form of q and a makes sense

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Thinking Skins