The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

21 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I wasn’t high on Haskins at all and I thought that, too. I was wrong.

 

Yeah I didn't want Haskins, i also didn't want Daniel Jones.  Not that I am blown away by Daniel but he's better than i thought he would be.

 

Actually, Daniel Jones success gets me a bit jazzed about Howell because I think what really elevated Jones this season is they run him a lot.

 

Daniel, and I did say this after watching him at Duke, is a tough SOB, he plays with a lot of guts.  In that regard, Howell is cut from the same cloth. I recall commenting after Howell's game against Pittsburgh in the rain, that dude is a tough SOB.  And like Daniel Jones, he has sneaky mobility and has the courage to use his legs.

 

I like Howell's deep ball and arm strength better than Daniel.  But i wish Howell was as tall as Daniel.

45 minutes ago, BrentMeisterGeneral said:

 

I'd imagine in which case the whole Ron outburst about watching the tape was him just protecting his guys. Either way Hurney seems to be the guy who knows how to fix the QB situation.

 

Fascinated to see what the setup will be under a new owner because I highly doubt there's gonna be 3 people in positions of seniority like Ron, Mayhew and Hurney

 

Hoping its the case with Hurney.  Keim mentioned last off season, Hurney loves to scout college players on the road especially QBs, and was really high on Herbert.

34 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

 

  

I like Howell and hope he succeeds, but I wouldn't bet too much of my life's savings on him just because he's confident in himself. We've had confident QBs before.

 

 

If you go through the whole article, Howell comes off as a totally different cat than Haskins (RIP).  

Edited January 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Conn]

I get thinking it’s a long term competitive disadvantage if the Giants are “forced” to take up large amounts of cap space with Jones and Barkley after this playoff run. But it’s pretty rich, as the little brothers of the division like we are, to brag about that given Jones has owned our asses his whole career. To say they “aren’t competitive” as they are one win against a division rival away from the NFC Championship Game is equally rich.

 

They have good coaching now and seemingly a great FO. They are here already and a problem. We shouldn’t be chortling at the idea that they may lock up a QB who has consistently improved, who just won them a playoff game with very few weapons. Pretty arrogant 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Conn

[Skinsinparadise]

53 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Well, that still kind of aligns with it being a Snyder move, though, doesn’t it?

 

They get Wentz, Turner is jazzed according to the media. Why would be be jazzed? His boss wants him to be, or he thinks that’s what Snyder wants to hear. 
 

He gets fired, doesn’t care what Snyder thinks anymore and said it wasn’t what he wanted.

 

 

the ESPN writer who said it was Dan who wanted Wentz is a national award winner with a good rep.  Dan who is afraid of his own shadow in public made a rare statement about Wentz saying "we finaly found our QB."

 

I suspect some in that FO did want Wentz but also suspect dissension on it and wouldn't surprise me at all that Dan was the most hopped up about making the move.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[woodpecker]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

the ESPN writer who said it was Dan who wanted Wentz is a national award winner with a good rep.  Dan who is afraid of his own shadow in public made a rare statement about Wentz saying "we finaly found our QB."

 

I suspect some in that FO did want Wentz but also suspect dissension on it and wouldn't surprise me at all that Dan was the most hopped up about making the move.

Sounds like Ron’s GM choice Hurney had it right but was overruled by Dan’s GM choice Mayhew and/or Dan himself. I hope the first order of business for the new owner is to get rid of all the current “GM”s. Both were crappy hires with mediocre track records (in mayhews case ‘mediocre’ is being nice). 

[method man]

7 minutes ago, Conn said:

I get thinking it’s a long term competitive advantage if the Giants are “forced” to take up large amounts of cap space with Jones and Barkley after this playoff run. But it’s pretty rich, as the little brothers of the division like we are, to brag about that given Jones has owned our asses his whole career. To say they “aren’t competitive” as they are one win against a division rival away from the NFC Championship Game is equally rich.

 

They have good coaching now and seemingly a great FO. They are here already and a problem. We shouldn’t be chortling at the idea that they may lock up a QB who has consistently improved, who just won them a playoff game with very few weapons. Pretty arrogant 

Who is saying the Giants aren’t competitive? What folks are excited by is Jones is about to get paid a real starting QB salary as an average QB and Barkley is about to get $10M+/yr when these big RB deals don’t often work out. Add to this that Slayton is a free agent too and he should be getting $8M-$10M a year. The Giants have holes in the back 7, in the interior of their OL, WR and TE (although I think Bellongwt had a good rookie season). The Giants have drafted well and I expect them to do so again this year but, if they don’t have $ in FA, that is going to really hamstring them

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, woodpecker said:

Sounds like Ron’s GM choice Hurney had it right but was overruled by Dan’s GM choice Mayhew and/or Dan himself. I hope the first order of business for the new owner is to get rid of all the current “GM”s. Both were crappy hires with mediocre track records (in mayhews case ‘mediocre’ is being nice). 

 

The drafts have been mostly good using real world metrics which is if you hit on 3 good players its a good haul.  Even Craig Hoffman who is no Rivera fan acceded that.  I think that's more Gribble (who has a good rep) and Hurney's department.  FA was good year 1 but bad the last two IMO. 

 

If Howell ends up the guy, will see, then all is forgiven for me at the QB spot.

[method man]

54 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

This right here is a great attitude to have: "Obviously I am so confident in who I am, and my game, that I think I’m the best quarterback in the NFL already."

 

The last time I remember a QB so sure of themselves is when Brady was drafted he went up to Kraft and told him 'You’ll never regret picking me.' At the time I thought what an arrogant thing to say for someone who was selected in the 6th round and probably won't even see the field. The rest is history of course. 

 

Brady believed in himself more than anyone else did. 

 

Howell projected to go in the 1st round but didn't will have a chip on his shoulder too. Can't wait.

Howell had a huge chip in HS. UNC was his dream school and Larry Fedora did not offer him. He used that as motivation to crush it and become a 4 star guy. Mack Brown got him to eventually flip his commitment from FSU to UNC at the 11th hour

[woodpecker]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The drafts have been mostly good using real world metrics which is if you hit on 3 good players its a good haul.  Even Craig Hoffman who is no Rivera fan acceded that.  I think that's more Gribble (who has a good rep) and Hurney's department.  FA was good year 1 but bad the last two IMO. 

 

If Howell ends up the guy, will see, then all is forgiven for me at the QB spot.

The results have been good and bad. Mediocre overall. We can do better. But I will say this… They both deserve some benefit of the doubt for having to deal with Snyder. 

[method man]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Keim

 

A. They like Howell’s progression during the season in practice. Kept getting better and more comfortable. It’s not about that one gene but that he improved incrementally from the start of training camp. 

 

B. They are excited about him because in the Dallas game because he threw with anticipation. And led the Wrs with YAC which they didn’t see enough from the other QBs.  Ditto his delivery was good including follow through in tight pockets which is something they didn’t see the same from the others. 
 

C. It’s the progression of Howell that has them jazzed 

 

D. Right now he thinks they run with Howell with a cheapish veteran who might be Heinicke or another veteran competing 

 

E. It could change if an unexpected QB hits the market 

 

F. They like Carr and wanted him last off season. He knows they won’t trade for him now but not sure what they do if he’s released 

 

G. If not for Wentz, Howell was plan A in the draft. He was their guy. Keim heard that at the time so it’s not a hindsight drill 

 

 

On G, I consistently noticed that folks from Washington were consistently in attendance for games his junior year

[zCommander]

51 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

I like Howell and hope he succeeds, but I wouldn't bet too much of my life's savings on him just because he's confident in himself. We've had confident QBs before.

 

 

Haskins was selected in the 1st round though. He was over drafted by us or else he might have been drafted a lot lower. Not a good comparison of self confidence and moral self awareness. The words says it all actually.

 

Howell has shown more confidence and poise than Haskins did. Haskins was too busy throwing dollar bills at the ladies while Howell is studying to be the best he can be.

 

You chose a bad example to compare Howell with.

[method man]

2 hours ago, BrentMeisterGeneral said:

Having an OC and a QB not on the same page is criminal, it will always end in tears.

 

Ron has to learn from it, any OC we hire has to have a plan that centres around Howell and bringing out the best of his skill set.

 

On Heinicke, Love the guy, love his attitude, love how he plays even if he isn't very effective, love how much it means. But therein lies the problem, if we're going to give Howell the best platform to succeed you can't have a guy sat on the bench that at the first sign of trouble the crowd will call for. He's a rookie there will be tough moments and that's when we're going to need to get behind him not call for the cult hero.

Thing is Heinicke is an excellent mentor and he will be coaching after his playing career is over. Given the play style and the friendship he already has with Howell, he could be good to keep around to help Howell succeed. Not sure a guy like Minshew would do the same

[NickyJ]

13 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Haskins was selected in the 1st round though. He was over drafted by us or else he might have been drafted a lot lower. Not a good comparison of self confidence and moral self awareness. The words says it all actually.

 

Howell has shown more confidence and poise than Haskins did. Haskins was too busy throwing dollar bills at the ladies while Howell is studying to be the best he can be.

 

You chose a bad example to compare Howell with.

You were praising Howell for being confident in himself, and that the last time you remember a QB being so sure of himself was Brady. I think a QB being sure of himself is a basic requirement of every QB, and even bad QBs like Haskins and Zach Wilson can feel confident.

What matters is the player's actual skill at the game of football, not whether they *think* they're skilled. And Howell has shown a flash of having at least the basics skills necessary, something that Haskins rarely showed. Lumping Howell in with Brady just because he didn't say "I can't imagine why they'd want me, I suck" is a pretty lofty comparison.

Edited January 16, 2023 by NickyJ

[Conn]

1 hour ago, method man said:

Who is saying the Giants aren’t competitive? What folks are excited by is Jones is about to get paid a real starting QB salary as an average QB and Barkley is about to get $10M+/yr when these big RB deals don’t often work out. Add to this that Slayton is a free agent too and he should be getting $8M-$10M a year. The Giants have holes in the back 7, in the interior of their OL, WR and TE (although I think Bellongwt had a good rookie season). The Giants have drafted well and I expect them to do so again this year but, if they don’t have $ in FA, that is going to really hamstring them

 

A poster two pages ago said “they are clearly not a contender right now”. Um they are clearly one game away from the NFC Championship Game. It’s time to take them, and Daniel Jones on whatever contract, seriously. They’re dangerous, well-coached, and I’d wager will be able to build a good roster around whatever dumb contract they give out (if they do). I’m simply saying the fans who are saying “good I’m glad they won a playoff game, it’ll ruin their cap!!” need to get their head out of the sand, that’s beyond arrogant type thinking until we can prove we’ve anywhere in the realm of that organization. We tied them once, and then with everything on the line they took us by the throat, spit in our mouths, and told us we don’t deserve to be in the playoffs. Then they go and win in round 1, looking good doing it. Thinking we can win the war by losing these battles because it’ll cause them to commit too many cap dollars to a pretty good QB who has our number is just funny to me. Maybe we should try getting above .500 before we start trying to worry about that game-within-the-game. 
 

I’m exaggerating for effect and humor but come on. That organization has our number and a way better FO/staff now. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Conn

[FootballZombie]

9 minutes ago, Conn said:

Maybe we should try getting above .500 before we start trying to worry about that game-within-the-game. 

 

Yup, we are one game away from the rest of the NFC E being in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

 

Lets fix our shortcomings before poking and prodding the other division teams who are doing something right.

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I’m a mixed bag because I agree that the Giants are well coached, and have what appears to be a very solid FO.  Something we can only aspire to be.

 

BUT…

 

If there is any silver lining for us it’s them being put in the situation to give out a large chunk of their cap to DJ, and potentially Barkley (although I think their braintrust is probably too smart for that).

 

That Vikings defense is historically awful.  They made it very easy for the Giants by offering up zero resistance on most every snap. 
 

The only dude unable to look like a pro bowler against that defense was Taylor Heinicke.  In fact they looked more like the 85 Bears than the 2016 Skins against him.

[KDawg]

I’ll never get it. 
 

The celebrating Daniel Jones being decent and needing to be paid sounds like this in my head:

 

”Hell yes! The Giants are in the second round of the playoffs (and we’re home) with a QB who is going to need to get paid. This is awesome news. I think we’ve beaten said QB once. But we also tied! So, things are turning around!

 

Also, we are very worried about Sam Howell needing to play in a different system this year, but we choose to ignore that Jones has had his best season yet in an entirely new system and this could be the new norm with him.

 

But hooray that they found a guy they can win with! That’s GREAT news for us!”

[CapsSkins]

@KDawg you gotta get more Bayesian with it, baby.

 

It’s not celebrating that the Giants are in the divisional round with a capable QB and good RB. It’s that, given that those things are true, at least the price tags for those guys are going up which could affect their ability to remain competitive beyond this season.

 

Personally, I want to see Brady come out of the NFC again and dispatch our divisional foes / Kyle Shanahan along the way. 
 

I will also confess… I found myself rooting for the Giants over Minnesota. Because I don’t buy them as a Super Bowl contender and my Kurt Cousins Derangement Syndrome took over.

[zCommander]

57 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

You were praising Howell for being confident in himself, and that the last time you remember a QB being so sure of himself was Brady. I think a QB being sure of himself is a basic requirement of every QB, and even bad QBs like Haskins and Zach Wilson can feel confident.

What matters is the player's actual skill at the game of football, not whether they *think* they're skilled. And Howell has shown a flash of having at least the basics skills necessary, something that Haskins rarely showed. Lumping Howell in with Brady just because he didn't say "I can't imagine why they'd want me, I suck" is a pretty lofty comparison.

 

The quote you provided showed to me that how he thought he was entitled. Instead of saying I know I am better than where I was selected and I will show that through my play on the field and hard work. He was butt hurt instead. There is a difference. 

 

For the record. Didn't like Haskins and didn't want Haskins. I liked Howell after watching the pro-day. 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by zCommander

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

@KDawg you gotta get more Bayesian with it, baby.

 

It’s not celebrating that the Giants are in the divisional round with a capable QB and good RB. It’s that, given that those things are true, at least the price tags for those guys are going up which could affect their ability to remain competitive beyond this season.

 

Personally, I want to see Brady come out of the NFC again and dispatch our divisional foes / Kyle Shanahan along the way. 
 

I will also confess… I found myself rooting for the Giants over Minnesota. Because I don’t buy them as a Super Bowl contender and my Kurt Cousins Derangement Syndrome took over.

I don’t care how they spend their money. All I know is that with their current time and no receivers they tied us and beat us and have consistently beaten us. Until we take the number they have on us, they can pay whoever and I won’t write them off.

[zCommander]

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

That piece about Turner not being down with Wentz is a far cry from the reports last offseason of him clicking his heels with giddyness to finally be able to air it out.

 

They knew they had to get a QB who can stretch the field. But like I said in the offseason: It has to be a Dan move since he wanted a known name to go with the re-brand. Wentz was a desperate move because of it and also since no one else was coming here. Over paid in the process as well. 

 

Turner wasn't as giddy but was more tempered instead. 

 

"And then I think last year," Turner said, "he bounced back and really, really had a good year and really played really well in stretches of last season. I think that's more of what to expect from him."

[CapsSkins]

44 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I don’t care how they spend their money. All I know is that with their current time and no receivers they tied us and beat us and have consistently beaten us. Until we take the number they have on us, they can pay whoever and I won’t write them off.

 Not caring how they spend their money is not caring about like half of what influences long-term competitiveness.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 Not caring how they spend their money is not caring about like half of what influences long-term competitiveness.

Until we can beat them consistently it doesn’t matter.

[mistertim]

32 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Until we can beat them consistently it doesn’t matter.

 

To me, it has nothing to do with us. The Giants having to pay potentially elite QB money for a very middle of the road QB and us not being a good team aren't mutually exclusive.

 

Yes, they've consistently beaten us with Daniel Jones. That doesn't mean he's a great QB, it means we suck. But overall, he's been pretty mediocre as a QB. Yes he had a better season this year, but IMO that has less to do with him progressing a bunch as a passer and more to do with his new OC limiting his passing and relying heavily on his legs instead.

 

So yeah, I am glad that they might have to fork over top 3 money to a 15-20 range QB. I have a feeling they're going to be flattened by the Eagles.

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

To me, it has nothing to do with us. The Giants having to pay potentially elite QB money for a very middle of the road QB and us not being a good team aren't mutually exclusive.

 

Yes, they've consistently beaten us with Daniel Jones. That doesn't mean he's a great QB, it means we suck. But overall, he's been pretty mediocre as a QB. Yes he had a better season this year, but IMO that has less to do with him progressing a bunch as a passer and more to do with his new OC limiting his passing and relying heavily on his legs instead.

 

So yeah, I am glad that they might have to fork over top 3 money to a 15-20 range QB. I have a feeling they're going to be flattened by the Eagles.

 

Yeah, everyone will be paying top money for a 15-20 QB range QB for the next few years as the cap rises. It's kind of the ebb and flow of the process. QB contracts go up and guys who are worse players get paid more than the better players until contracts are extended or re-signed.

 

I also doubt they wind up paying top three money. And as long as it isn't $200M guaranteed it looks like a steal compared to Deshaun Watson. 

[Warhead36]

Stroud declares for the draft. My guess is he goes to the Colts at 4.