The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Fan since a Fetus]

7 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

No one it absolved of blame. But it all starts with the Oline.  Bad blocking leads to bad mechanics which leads to bad play calling.  Im saying its not all on Wentz.  Sure he could play better but until the Oline is at least serviceable any QB would struggle, I would like to see how TH would do though. 

Agreed, everyone is to blame. Organizational failure.

 

I’ve seen videos showing Carson’s mechanics were bad last year as well. Some people have documented it and I’ve noticed that it has continued this year. Sometimes he’s not giving himself a good chance even when he has time.

 

I realize that there isn’t a qb that could be hugely successful with the middle of this line and I wonder how much of that has to do with Turner. I read on here that Wentz’s mind is swimming because of the playbook. If that’s the case and he is looked at within the organization as a long term qb, they need to simplify it for him. 
 

Also, it was known when Ron came here that he didn’t put a lot of value on the interior line. I think the lines are the two most important things to be successful. But, Turner and Wentz aren’t helping. I think it says a lot when Masko can’t get the line situated. He’s been a good coach and he can’t seem to piece this together. 

I don’t want to see Heinicke. He had a good line last year and wasn’t great. I think he would be even worse this year. Although, I rather see him than lose a 2nd.

 

 

 

 

[Peregrine]

Theres no way you avoid taking a top QB in next years draft, and skip on a potential franchise QB because you have a 5th round guy who may or may not be on the team in a year.  

 

If he pans out and you end up with two great QBs, great, not a problem at all.  If you stupid skip you might as well fold the next few years as well.  Which I know Dan doesnt care about, but the people he hires have to pretend to to get a future job with another NFL team.

[tomwvr]

11 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Not against letting season play out on Wentz when seeing stuff like this (Wentz is #5 right now):

 

 

If he had two more yards i might agree

[DJHJR86]

I would expect Wentz to be in the top 5 in yards.  The team has been behind in virtually every game whereas the run game would have to be abandoned and he's forced to throw.  

[Ball Security]

12 hours ago, Conn said:

Not really. Not enough to stake your future on if you have a top-5 pick and some good QB prospects. 
 

Howell could hypothetically be the next Brady, but we wouldn’t know that in 6-8 games. It would be insanely reckless to extrapolate his performance too far, even if he plays well. Unless he comes in and looks like a total star and takes the league by storm, it’s just not a risk you can take if you end up with a top 5-10 pick and like the QBs. 

Hypothetical for you: Howell plays out the string and is quite impressive.  The team ends up with the seventh pick.  They (and the rest of the league) identify Stroud, Young, and Levis as legit top of the draft qb prospects.  Chicago sits at number three and they let it be known that they are happy with Fields and aren’t in the QB market.  But the five other teams picking ahead are in need of qb.  Chicago offers a pick swap if you also give up the 2023 second rounder, 2024 and 2025 firsts.  Do you make that deal?

[Renegade7]

42 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

I would expect Wentz to be in the top 5 in yards.  The team has been behind in virtually every game whereas the run game would have to be abandoned and he's forced to throw.  

 

Plenty of teams find themselves in that situation throughout the years but aren't even top 10 in passing yards, let alone top 5.

[Conn]

24 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

Hypothetical for you: Howell plays out the string and is quite impressive.  The team ends up with the seventh pick.  They (and the rest of the league) identify Stroud, Young, and Levis as legit top of the draft qb prospects.  Chicago sits at number three and they let it be known that they are happy with Fields and aren’t in the QB market.  But the five other teams picking ahead are in need of qb.  Chicago offers a pick swap if you also give up the 2023 second rounder, 2024 and 2025 firsts.  Do you make that deal?

My personal bias would have me questioning doing it for Levis at this point, but there’s a lot of information yet to gather this season. Depending on the quality of the prospects at that time I’d certainly consider it. Every year I’d consider it. The hope of course is that we finish higher than 7th and don’t need to trade up. I don’t think people are really actively talking about trading up right now because we look abysmal. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

We had two top 5 picks on our OL who are both All Pro caliber players and Ron got rid of them both.

 

The DL has seen major investment though. Literally first rounders for four years straight.

 

There is context to getting rid of them. 

 

A.  Trent had bad blood in the building.  Took a year off.  Ron wanted Trent to play a season before giving him a fat new contract and Trent wanted nothing to do with that.   Ron in retrospect was wrong but he didn't exactly inherit a linear easy situation with Trent. Wouldn't shock me if Dan wanted Trent out considering some beat guys heard Dan was furious about Trent's accusations including implying racisim.

 

B. Scherff they offered him a big contract, he turned it down.  Mayhew who is usually pretty contained actually blew up when asked about Scherff suggesting hey guys ask Scherff we did everything we could.  Some reporters have said they learned that Scherff wanted out even though he liked Rivera. 

 

It definitely is not lost on Rivera that an O line is key.  He's talked about it to death.  They took Cosmi early.  According to Keim if one of the top 3 tackles fell to their pick last draft they'd have taken one.  It came out in the team's draft expose that their backup pick to Dotson was a guard. 

 

According to Sheehan they are stunned that the offensive line fell apart this year but they recognize that it did.   I gather they figured Masko could figure out with Norwell and Turner who I believed he onced coached.  But if fell apart.   Rivera's own comments this week indicates they he gets they screwed up on the offensive line.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Rufus T Firefly]

5 hours ago, BringMetheHeadofBruceAllen said:

Tom Brady lost 2 of his 3 Superb Owls when the Giants' D-line overwhelmed the O-line.

[method man]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

There is context to getting rid of them. 

 

A.  Trent had bad blood in the building.  Took a year off.  Ron wanted Trent to play a season before giving him a fat new contract and Trent wanted nothing to do with that.   Ron in retrospect was wrong but he didn't exactly inherit a linear easy situation with Trent. Wouldn't shock me if Dan wanted Trent out considering some beat guys heard Dan was furious about Trent's accusations including implying racisim.

 

B. Scherff they offered him a big contract, he turned it down.  Mayhew who is usually pretty contained actually blew up when asked about Scherff suggesting hey guys ask Scherff we did everything we could.  Some reporters have said they learned that Scherff wanted out even though he liked Rivera. 

 

It definitely is not lost on Rivera that an O line is key.  He's talked about it to death.  They took Cosmi early.  According to Keim if one of the top 3 tackles fell to their pick last draft they'd have taken one.  It came out in the team's draft expose that their backup pick to Dotson was a guard. 

 

According to Sheehan they are stunned that the offensive line fell apart this year but they recognize that it did.   I gather they figured Masko could figure out with Norwell and Turner who I believed he onced coached.  But if fell apart.   Rivera's own comments this week indicates they he gets they screwed up on the offensive line.

 

 

 

I think Norwell was justifiable as he was ok in JAX, just didn't live up to the All Pro contract he had signed on for. Obvious idiotic thought process on Turner as he was one of the league's worst guards in 2020 and was below average for the Steelers in 2021. Fine to bring the guy in with the intention of him being a backup but idiotic to depend on him as a starter.

Edited October 12, 2022 by method man

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Fan since a Fetus said:

 

Also, it was known when Ron came here that he didn’t put a lot of value on the interior line. I think the lines are the two most important things to be successful. But, Turner and Wentz aren’t helping. I think it says a lot when Masko can’t get the line situated. He’s been a good coach and he can’t seem to piece this together. 
 

 

 

I think the issue was arrogance.  They really nailed so many of their moves on the O line leading to this year.  The Flowers trade looked good. Charles Leno was a great move.  Cosmi a good pick.   They got Lucas for peanuts and ditto Schwetizer both were really good depth.

 

They offered Scherff supposedly 16 million and make him the highest paid guard.  I am actually glad Scherrf said no because as much as i like him I don't want a 30 something often injured guard to take that much of the cap. 

 

But I gather they got full of themslves because the line has been good even with injuries in recent years.  Masko considered the guru of O line coaches.  And their instincts were proven very good at that spot.

 

Until now.  And they struck out on both Norwell and Turner and then that gets compounded with the Roullier injury. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Fan since a Fetus]

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think the issue was arrogance.  They really nailed so many of their moves on the O line leading to this year.  The Flowers trade looked good. Charles Leno was a great move.  Cosmi a good pick.   They got Lucas for peanuts and ditto Schwetizer both were really good depth.

 

They offered Scherff supposedly 16 million and make him the highest paid guard.  I am actually glad Scherrf said no because as much as i like him I don't want a 30 something often injured guard to take that much of the cap. 

 

But I gather they got full of themslves because the line has been good even with injuries in recent years.  Masko considered the guru of O line coaches.  And their instincts were proven very good at that spot.

 

Until now.  And they struck out on both Norwell and Turner and then that gets compounded with the Roullier injury. 

 

Yeah, I didn't think about it that way, but those are all very valid points and could very well explain their thinking. 

[The Consigliere]

22 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I liked Fields in college but there were some concerns about his speed-processing on the field.  Logan Paulsen has been pretty good with his takes about different players as far as things bearing out including not being enamored with Wentz based on what he saw in camp.  His take studying Fields is he's not processing quickly and his accuracy isn't hot.

 

Having said that I like to make my own mind about players. No doubt its not easy succeeding with the Bears, maybe its all on the Bears, you got me.  But I haven't loved what I've read about Fields this season albeit one of his better games was last week.

 

There is some thought that Ohio States QBs and the NFL don't go together.  I thought Fields would break that mold.  I still hope he does because I liked him in college, seems like a nice guy.  But if he doesn't it makes me wonder some about Stroud who i haven't studied yet.  Fields has much more mobility than Stroud, too. 

 

I think the most reasonable take on him is the simplest:

 

He's playing like crap.

 

His team, organization and coaches have been crap.

 

It's a chicken or egg scenario.

 

One you can never fully learn the truth about because at the end of the day, part of the ingredients of success is landing spot, and how much it matters is a known unknown. We can never know for sure what went wrong with a guy who landed w/a garbage org and sucked. We can learn when a guy who lands in a toilet, climbs out via trade or release and builds a career later on (Plunkett in the eighties, Young in the Eighties and Nineties, Gannon in the nineties, Kurt Warner later on) that the player always had it, and the organization(s) failed them, but with the guys that never make it? The David Carr's of the world who are sabotaged by bad team building, or sabotaged by poor coaches etc, we can't be sure.

 

The only thing I'm sure of with Fields is that he's generally not playing well, and that's generally surrounded by complete and utter garbage at every level.

 

Compare to the scrub the Jets overdrafted, Wilson, who may turn out.

Dude has Corey Davis, Elijah Moore, Garrett Wilson, a dream chain moving cheap TE (Tyler Conklin, who I was stashing on deep dynasty teams like 4 or 5 years ago when Minny drafted him), and multiple legit option RB's, and an OL in progress. That's a dream. If he flops, he could point to the team stupidly hiring a defensive coordinator as the coach, but to my mind, it doesn't excuse it.

 

Lance? Lance has everything he needs in house. Run Game, great pass catching weapons, legit OL, great FO and HC. NO EXCUSES.

 

Lawrence landed with a coach so bad they ran him out before the season was even over. The team build was scuttled, they dumped my man Shenault (maybe another miss of mine), let Chark leave at well, and basically have some RB's and a mess at WR, I don't know the OL quality. I do know the coach is solid. But Lawrence got screwed in year 1, and it's still a mess in year 2. 

 

Mac Jones: Credit, big credit to that guy, but still, small sample size lessons here. The Pats have garbage at WR (seemingly always) some good TE's, and good grinder RB's (but no elite athletic guys) and a solid enough OL. Mac turned that into an above .500 team last year. That was stunning to me.

 

This draft class I hated everybody except Howell, and Willis, and Willis is raw as hell, and Howell for whatever reason seemed to drop 4 rounds in value in six months. Pretty crazy. Felt like a steal in terms of value, but he's still at best only a 50/50 chance if he had huge draft capital, he doesn't, so he's probably more a 25/30 shot out of a hundred (team is far less likely to invest the time and assets to build up his career, and he's likely to be roster fodder the next crew had no role in selecting and so won't be super interested in maximizing the value of unless his talent is off the charts to them).

 

Difficult situation. The big problem with Fields for me, getting back to him, is I put myself in a corner where I can't lose, I can and will blame Chicago for wrecking in him, as I believe in his talent, and that's not falsifiable, otoh, to be fair, and reasonable, I've got to own that he's also just stunk. Mac didn't have substantially more to work with in terms of talent and was far better, otoh, Mac had a professional legit organization and coaching staff, Fields did not (ditto Lawrence). 

 

Will be interesting to see how it plays out, but I think Chicago has likely destroyed his career unless they bring in a great hire and have back to back fantastic offseasons. 

18 hours ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

The only QB I like in the 1st round is Bryce Young and he's short as well.    Howell was a 1st round prospect in 2021.  He showed me a lot in preseason.   

He wasn't going ahead of the big 3, maybe the big 4. I tend to think he would have gone early 2nd, maybe late 1st. But judging based on how irrationally harsh they were on him for his '21 season, I tend to think they never viewed him as a first round talent because his '21 season was totally explicable (top 4 weapons drafted the offseason before his draft season in '21, and he also added a ton of run game to his CV, and they reacted by dropping him from 1st round grades to not drafted in the top 130). I would argue he probably was never going in round 1 based on that alone. 

[The Consigliere]

18 hours ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

There isn't a Burrow or Herbert in this draft.   

Young and Stroud are projected ahead of where Burrow and Herbert were going into their draft years. 

 

The draft itself is also much deeper than usual at the position. Only drafts this deep this century were probably '11, '12, '18 and '21. Of course 2 of the 3 ended up being god awful in retrospect and '21 is very sketchy for now. 

[Skinsinparadise]

21 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

 

I

 

Compare to the scrub the Jets overdrafted, Wilson, who may turn out.

Dude has Corey Davis, Elijah Moore, Garrett Wilson, a dream chain moving cheap TE (Tyler Conklin, who I was stashing on deep dynasty teams like 4 or 5 years ago when Minny drafted him), and multiple legit option RB's, and an OL in progress. That's a dream. If he flops, he could point to the team stupidly hiring a defensive coordinator as the coach, but to my mind, it doesn't excuse it.

 

 

I was listening to Matt Bowen who does some good anaylsis and ironically one of his points about Fields was he thinks life would be a lot easier for him if he had the Commanders supporting cast.  He was very high on the weapons here.  Among other things he thinks Dotson will emerge as a star. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[tomwvr]

5 hours ago, Ball Security said:

Hypothetical for you: Howell plays out the string and is quite impressive.  The team ends up with the seventh pick.  They (and the rest of the league) identify Stroud, Young, and Levis as legit top of the draft qb prospects.  Chicago sits at number three and they let it be known that they are happy with Fields and aren’t in the QB market.  But the five other teams picking ahead are in need of qb.  Chicago offers a pick swap if you also give up the 2023 second rounder, 2024 and 2025 firsts.  Do you make that deal?

Hell no 

[method man]

52 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I was listening to Matt Bowen who does some good anaylsis and ironically one of his points about Fields was he thinks life would be a lot easier for him if he had the Commanders supporting cast.  He was very high on the weapons here.  Among other things he thinks Dotson will emerge as a star. 

 

I really like Bowen. To your point, he loves Dotson's start/stop ability and ability to make difficult catches. Thought that Wilson and Dotson were the only two in the last draft that had that ability

1 hour ago, The Consigliere said:

 

I think the most reasonable take on him is the simplest:

 

He's playing like crap.

 

His team, organization and coaches have been crap.

 

It's a chicken or egg scenario.

 

One you can never fully learn the truth about because at the end of the day, part of the ingredients of success is landing spot, and how much it matters is a known unknown. We can never know for sure what went wrong with a guy who landed w/a garbage org and sucked. We can learn when a guy who lands in a toilet, climbs out via trade or release and builds a career later on (Plunkett in the eighties, Young in the Eighties and Nineties, Gannon in the nineties, Kurt Warner later on) that the player always had it, and the organization(s) failed them, but with the guys that never make it? The David Carr's of the world who are sabotaged by bad team building, or sabotaged by poor coaches etc, we can't be sure.

 

The only thing I'm sure of with Fields is that he's generally not playing well, and that's generally surrounded by complete and utter garbage at every level.

 

Compare to the scrub the Jets overdrafted, Wilson, who may turn out.

Dude has Corey Davis, Elijah Moore, Garrett Wilson, a dream chain moving cheap TE (Tyler Conklin, who I was stashing on deep dynasty teams like 4 or 5 years ago when Minny drafted him), and multiple legit option RB's, and an OL in progress. That's a dream. If he flops, he could point to the team stupidly hiring a defensive coordinator as the coach, but to my mind, it doesn't excuse it.

 

Lance? Lance has everything he needs in house. Run Game, great pass catching weapons, legit OL, great FO and HC. NO EXCUSES.

 

Lawrence landed with a coach so bad they ran him out before the season was even over. The team build was scuttled, they dumped my man Shenault (maybe another miss of mine), let Chark leave at well, and basically have some RB's and a mess at WR, I don't know the OL quality. I do know the coach is solid. But Lawrence got screwed in year 1, and it's still a mess in year 2. 

 

Mac Jones: Credit, big credit to that guy, but still, small sample size lessons here. The Pats have garbage at WR (seemingly always) some good TE's, and good grinder RB's (but no elite athletic guys) and a solid enough OL. Mac turned that into an above .500 team last year. That was stunning to me.

 

This draft class I hated everybody except Howell, and Willis, and Willis is raw as hell, and Howell for whatever reason seemed to drop 4 rounds in value in six months. Pretty crazy. Felt like a steal in terms of value, but he's still at best only a 50/50 chance if he had huge draft capital, he doesn't, so he's probably more a 25/30 shot out of a hundred (team is far less likely to invest the time and assets to build up his career, and he's likely to be roster fodder the next crew had no role in selecting and so won't be super interested in maximizing the value of unless his talent is off the charts to them).

 

Difficult situation. The big problem with Fields for me, getting back to him, is I put myself in a corner where I can't lose, I can and will blame Chicago for wrecking in him, as I believe in his talent, and that's not falsifiable, otoh, to be fair, and reasonable, I've got to own that he's also just stunk. Mac didn't have substantially more to work with in terms of talent and was far better, otoh, Mac had a professional legit organization and coaching staff, Fields did not (ditto Lawrence). 

 

Will be interesting to see how it plays out, but I think Chicago has likely destroyed his career unless they bring in a great hire and have back to back fantastic offseasons. 

He wasn't going ahead of the big 3, maybe the big 4. I tend to think he would have gone early 2nd, maybe late 1st. But judging based on how irrationally harsh they were on him for his '21 season, I tend to think they never viewed him as a first round talent because his '21 season was totally explicable (top 4 weapons drafted the offseason before his draft season in '21, and he also added a ton of run game to his CV, and they reacted by dropping him from 1st round grades to not drafted in the top 130). I would argue he probably was never going in round 1 based on that alone. 

 

I think Howell was seen as a legitimate first round prospect in 2021 because he had that big season as a sophomore. I think scouts were hoping that he would continue to take that next step as a passer, even without the weapons. It's cool that he added the running wrinkle to his game but I don't think scouts really viewed that as translating to the NFL because his running ability is more like that of a powerback vs a say a scatback like many of these dual threat QBs

[RandyHolt]

I think a QB should be drafted every other year until we find one. If not every year. 1 pick every 5 years aint working.

[skins island connection]

17 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I think a QB should be drafted every other year until we find one. If not every year. 1 pick every 5 years aint working.

 

 Yes, and hopefully the guy is taller than 5'10.

I know I know, there are QBs who are short but had success, but that has never worked here, especially with this o-line.

Is the team chef still making the 3 calorie chicken cordon bleu? If anything, beef em all up, put em on a beer & donut diet...

[CobraCommander]

44 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I think a QB should be drafted every other year until we find one. If not every year. 1 pick every 5 years aint working.

You mean in the first round or just in the draft somewhere?

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[BringMetheHeadofBruceAllen]

2 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

I think a QB should be drafted every other year until we find one. If not every year. 1 pick every 5 years aint working.

Meanwhile Belichick drafts or signs one every other year.

[Riggodrill44]

21 hours ago, Conn said:

Not really. Not enough to stake your future on if you have a top-5 pick and some good QB prospects. 
 

Howell could hypothetically be the next Brady, but we wouldn’t know that in 6-8 games. It would be insanely reckless to extrapolate his performance too far, even if he plays well. Unless he comes in and looks like a total star and takes the league by storm, it’s just not a risk you can take if you end up with a top 5-10 pick and like the QBs. 

Look what Philly did with Hurts, they stuck it out for a 1 1/2 years. Built other parts of their team and now unbeaten.

We lack patience and commitment to do anything correctly but a quick fix.

[philibusters]

Levis is an example of where I as a fan really go in a different direction than the pro scout.   Levis is a toolsy prospect who is a decent but not great QB.   If I was picking a college QB to start a team with for this season, he probably wouldn't be in my top 15.   He is not bad, he is just not really good as a college QB.  That said I am just evaluating him as a college player, not as a pro prospect.  That said I know there are prospects like Josh Allen who are good, but not great college QB's who become elite NFL QB's because they have the physical tools and they develop the other skills, but for every Josh Allen there are probably three toolsy QB's who don't develop.   If we are in a position to draft Levis without trading up, then sure go for it.  But if we had to give up three first rounders for him--forget him-- there is simply too high of a risk that he doesn't develop.

[Riggodrill44]

11 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

No, you are 100% correct. The idea of you build a team then get a QB is the exact flawed appraoch that keeps us in this perpetual draft 10 to 17 mode where you can't really get any genrational talent so you are getting good but not tranformative players. 

 

You need a QB! That is priority #1! If Ron has not proved to us anything else he has proved you have to get a QB 1st. 

 

 

To think there is no talent to be had in the 10-17 range is part of the problem.

 

Give me the 1st pick this year and I’ll turn it into 3 starting lineman and a starting CB prospect. 
I would redo Wentz contract, drop his number in half. Sign a couple of LB in FA.

 

This is how we move forward. Blowing the whole thing up again is just wasting more time. The big difference is not letting Ron pick anything.