All things defense

[Peregrine]

Defense gave up 7 points, continuing a trend, and people will still think the main problem with this team(below Snyder and Rivera) is the defense.  Its Scott Turner, and its not even worth touching the D with a 10 foot pole until that disaster leaves the building.  But some people still think hes a good offensive coach...

[Renegade7]

14 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

Should we trade away Payne? I love the player and want to keep him but if he is gone next year no matter what - is it time after 1 more loss?

 

We are too stupid to trade Will Jackson instead we will keep him and use him to his weaknesses.

 

Them talking of trading Jackson sounds like more an admission to that failure to make space to keep Payne.  Let him walk without so much as a franchise tag should be a fireable offense.

[Est.1974]

Was the D really that good. 238 rush yards given up. Got away with some 50/50 calls and Fields missed some critical plays. That said our O does suck.

[philibusters]

10 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Fuller was good his first two years. Not sure why he's fallen off so hard this year.

 

To me he looks like he lost a step.  He still has a natural instinct for coverage, but if you challenge him vertically its easy to get a step on him with raw speed.  He came into the league with 4.5 speed so he never had an extra step to lose, so if he lost a step in his straight line speed its problematic.  Last couple weeks he gave up long completions vertically down the field.

[SkinsGuy]

5 hours ago, wit33 said:

This man vs zone usage… Where’s the truth in this? Can I chalk the this up to misplaced fan representation in attempt to simplify something not easily understood? I’ve seen the dude get burned in man as well. 
 

Not coming at you crazy, just curious if you have anything to back this claim up? 

 

The only thing to back it up is how well he played in Cincinnati. It's not like he was bad his whole career. He couldn't have just forgotten how to play football.

 

I guess we'll know if he does get traded to a team with a different, more man coverage defense and he starts to thrive again.

 

It won't be the first time it has happened. Years ago, the team brought in Jeremiah Trotter from the eagles.

 

He was great in Philadelphia, came here and stunk it up because he didn't fit what the team doing, then went back to the eagles and played well again.

 

Of course, it could just be a case of fat cat syndrome. The large amount of money Jackson got in that contract may have turned his head and he's been more about the money than getting his work done on the field.

 

Guess we'll see when he's gone, whenever that is. 

Edited October 14, 2022 by SkinsGuy

[MrJL]

4 hours ago, Peregrine said:

Defense gave up 7 points, continuing a trend, and people will still think the main problem with this team(below Snyder and Rivera) is the defense.  Its Scott Turner, and its not even worth touching the D with a 10 foot pole until that disaster leaves the building.  But some people still think hes a good offensive coach...

 

t's because he's designed some good plays.  It's just his choices on calling them thats terrible

[Going Commando]

4 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

Was the D really that good. 238 rush yards given up. Got away with some 50/50 calls and Fields missed some critical plays. That said our O does suck.

 

Yeah they were good.  A lot of that rush production came on a few plays and came in situations where it was counterproductive, like scrambles when the Bears needed to stop the clock.  Herbert's big run was a product of Jamin and Juice missing key tackles on a run that the front side of the D properly stymied.  It's going to happen from time to time against good NFL athletes.  Montgomery only got free at the end of the game when they were either nursing a one point lead or were playing from behind, he still had fresh legs, and our DL got banged up.  And Fields's rushing was the product of our decision to max cover and basically every one of his runs was a scramble, not designed running.  The only time we spied him was down in the red zone, and that is what kept him out of the end zone.

 

And I think the way we decided to defend him was absolutely the right call.  The Bears receivers are their most dangerous players on offense, and we checked them (and did it with a secondary that isn't nearly as talented as theirs).  In order to do it, we had to say OK, he's going to get huge scramble lanes when we're between the 20s, but every time he takes them means he's not getting into a rhythm with his receivers and it means he might take a big hit.  Combine that with the fact our DL was absolutely destroying their OL and Fields couldn't get comfortable and really struggled to get off his first read.  He missed plays because he was seeing the field through a straw after getting clobbered and hurried and having the design of the play taken away by those max coverages.  And then the run D became a brick wall  in the red zone because we knew they don't have red zone threats and basically run the ball 70% of the time they are down there.

 

I think it was one of the best games they've played (and that Del Rio and his staff have planned and called) since 2020.  And I can't help but notice that it happens without Chase and William Jackson in the line up.  I love Chase as a player, but I notice that the rush rotation of Obada/Toohill/WBK has been very effective and Montez has been legitimately dominant the past two weeks.  Chase is a luxury whereas the other three studs on the line feel essential.  And Jackson just sucks.  He makes a physical play every now and then, but it looks to me like he is the weak link in the chain on the secondary.  Even though Juice made some rough mistakes last night, it's clear he's already better than Jackson and the unit plays far better with him on the outside instead.

 

The defense is finding their identity.  It took a pair of get-right games against struggling offenses in Chicago and Tennessee, but it finally happened.  If they can stay healthy, we can actually win some games this year.  But it will take the offense finally finding an identity and a way to move the chains at a functional level in order for that to happen.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Going Commando

[RandyHolt]

Something still looks very different up front to me.  Has there been a proper discussion on if we are 1 or 2 gap or our approach especially after getting a late DL coach change. Sapp.

 

It sure has hell looks like our front 4 have been unleashed the past 2 weeks and you could see it from the first snap vs Tenn. Sure enough our run D has suffered playing less disciplined and gave up a big scramble but the DBs seems far less on an island. Suddenly people are saying our D looks decent - is that all a coincidence?

 

It looks like JDR ran my hated: read react get run over the first 4 weeks. We can say our DL never adjusts same approach every week or its just pathetic OLs we faced, but I am not sold. If we face a decent OL in the next 2 weeks and still get sacks and pressure I hope that provides proof of my 'JDR stopped exposing the confused DBs and is attacking up front' theory. Yes I think JDR admitted failure.

 

Week 5 all our jaws dropped that we had a LB with 16 tackles. Cole had 12 last night. Before the last 2 games no one had more than 10 in any game this year.

Edited October 14, 2022 by RandyHolt

[method man]

Wildgoose has calmed his nerves and has looked good at slot the past couple games. As Bullock pointed out, despite his size, he is also feisty in run support. Could turn out to be a great find by Mayhew

 

If Fuller doesn’t get it together soon, sit him too and let’s see what we have in TCF and Holmes. Hoping that at least one of the two can show they are at least a solid #4 corner

22 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Something still looks very different up front to me.  Has there been a proper discussion on if we are 1 or 2 gap or our approach especially after getting a late DL coach change. Sapp.

 

It sure has hell looks like our front 4 have been unleashed the past 2 weeks and you could see it from the first snap vs Tenn. Sure enough our run D has suffered playing less disciplined and gave up a big scramble but the DBs seems far less on an island. Suddenly people are saying our D looks decent - is that all a coincidence?

 

It looks like JDR ran my hated: read react get run over the first 4 weeks. We can say our DL never adjusts same approach every week or its just pathetic OLs we faced, but I am not sold. If we face a decent OL in the next 2 weeks and still get sacks and pressure I hope that provides proof of my 'JDR stopped exposing the confused DBs and is attacking up front' theory. Yes I think JDR admitted failure.

 

Week 5 all our jaws dropped that we had a LB with 16 tackles. Cole had 12 last night. Before the last 2 games no one had more than 10 in any game this year.

Keim said on one of his recent pods that the DL is finally doing from a scheme standpoint what they’ve been wanting them to do and Zgonina in that seat vs Mills is a big reason for why

[Going Commando]

1 minute ago, method man said:

If Fuller doesn’t get it together soon, sit him too and let’s see what we have in TCF and Holmes. Hoping that at least one of the two can show they are at least a solid #4 corner

 

Don't know about Holmes, but TCF is getting out there on the field some.  You can't really sit Fuller given the rotational nature of DB play.  You need every single game-day active DB on the field at some point and Fuller is one of our only guys with lots of experience.  You need some of that to play good situational football and establish comfort and communication in the secondary.

 

I think the best thing for Fuller would be to get more time in the slot via drafting a stud outside corner to play opposite Juice.  Then he might be a pretty decent and useful player again, and our defense could look really complete.

[Warhead36]

Davis is getting better but still routinely over runs plays. Did it on the big Herbert run and I think one or two other big run after catch type plays. But still, he's starting to come around. As is Juste at outside CB. I don't think either are gonna be A1 studs but both look like they should be solid starters. We still need a legitimate MLB and real #1 type CB though. 

 

The DL is finally starting to play up to their draft status, but this is kinda what they do: dominate vastly inferior OLs/QBs but get shut down by quality ones. The games against the Packers and Vikings will be more telling. 

[Ball Security]

Best FA pick up this offseason.

 

 

 

 

[RandyHolt]

It seems like its the elephant in the room that no matter what CB we get they will only be used to their strengths a fraction of the snaps. It seems weird to me that so many CBs cannot play man or zone.  I can see one not being strong at press but still being good.

 

It seems like many on our defense are 1 dimensional. I kind of miss the days when Ds didn't frantically want to sub after every snap taking off studs and bringing in lessor players all in the name of.... over coaching?  If I was an OC when a D sub came in that I wanted to target I would then go to hurry up to isolate them. Call it the Attack Fat Albert plan.

[Malapropismic Depository]

Highly ironic thought.

By far, undoubtedly our greatest strength on the team right now, was entirely built by Bruce Allen.

Montez Sweat, Daron Payne, and Jonathan Allen, were all Bruce Allen picks.

 

[DWinzit]

On 10/14/2022 at 9:26 AM, Warhead36 said:

 We still need a legitimate MLB and real #1 type CB though. 

 

This statement has rung true for like 3 straight years.

I don't see Davis ever living up to a 1st round billing, we all knew he was a reach. I see them letting him go at the end of his rookie contract and playing better for someone else on the outside as he matures

[NoVaSkins21]

11 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

Highly ironic thought.

By far, undoubtedly our greatest strength on the team right now, was entirely built by Bruce Allen.

Montez Sweat, Daron Payne, and Jonathan Allen, were all Bruce Allen picks.

 

IMO, the players on the DL have mainly thrived due to the new DL coach Jeff Zgonina  Any GM can pick great players, but it takes a good coach to get the best out of them.  Zgonina has been one of the few bright spots on this coaching staff.

[method man]

6 minutes ago, NoVaSkins21 said:

IMO, the players on the DL have mainly thrived due to the new DL coach Jeff Zgonina  Any GM can pick great players, but it takes a good coach to get the best out of them.  Zgonina has been one of the few bright spots on this coaching staff.

Again it’s on Ron for taking him so long to fire Sam Mills when players were complaining about him since 2020

[Malapropismic Depository]

11 minutes ago, NoVaSkins21 said:

Any GM can pick great players,

 

Gotta give some credit, because both Sweat and Allen were somewhat gambles, due to "perceived" health concerns of theirs at the time. And other teams apparently passed on them because of that.

 

[Warhead36]

I think Sweat was a Kyle Smith pick. Allen being a Snyder stooge was the one who picked Haskins.

[method man]

On 10/16/2022 at 12:54 PM, Warhead36 said:

I think Sweat was a Kyle Smith pick. Allen being a Snyder stooge was the one who picked Haskins.

Yep. They wanted either Savage or Sweat at #15 so they gave up the 2 2nds to move up to grab Sweat to prevent a mutiny by the scouts, who were so pissed Snyder took over the draft room

 

Now those two picks became Greedy Williams, a disappointment, and Michael Pittman Jr. I’d take Pittman over Sweat - both guys are on similar tiers at their respective positions. WR > DE on value and Pittman would have been such a great complement to Terry

[Going Commando]

7 hours ago, method man said:

Yep. They wanted either Savage or Sweat at #15 so they gave up the 2 2nds to move up to grab Sweat to prevent a mutiny by the scouts, who were so pissed Snyder took over the draft room

 

Now those two picks became Greedy Williams, a disappointment, and Michael Pittman Jr. I’d take Pittman over Sweat - both guys are on similar tiers at their respective positions. WR > DE on value and Pittman would have been such a great complement to Terry

 

I think a no-hindsight BPA usage of the Sweat picks would have been DK Metcalf with the first and Jonathan Taylor with the second.  Sure I would rather have those two than Sweat, but I would rather have Sweat than just Pittman.  This recent version of Sweat anyway.  A game wrecking DL is worth more than a receiver.  He's making a critical impact on a huge amount of snaps whereas even the best WR in the league is only making a big impact on like 15 snaps a game.  For me the position value tiering goes:

 

1 - QB

2 - DL

3 - OL

4 - Offensive skill

5 - DB

6 - stack linebacker

 

A lot of that runs contrary to draft value and contract value, which is why I think you can get into trouble drafting receivers and DBs too high or signing the positions to big money FA deals or making costly trades for them.  On the flip side I think you can significantly improve your team with cost effective investments in interior linemen on both sides of the ball.  Our three best players are all mid first DLs for example.  Dudes like Fletcher Cox and Jason Kelce are HoF quality players who have a tiny cap hit compared to their impact and they are on third and fourth contracts respectively.

[Chris 44]

On 10/14/2022 at 8:27 AM, Going Commando said:

 

 

 

 

I think it was one of the best games they've played (and that Del Rio and his staff have planned and called) since 2020.  And I can't help but notice that it happens without Chase and William Jackson in the line up.  I love Chase as a player, but I notice that the rush rotation of Obada/Toohill/WBK has been very effective and Montez has been legitimately dominant the past two weeks.  Chase is a luxury whereas the other three studs on the line feel essential.  

 

Paulson and Smoot did a break down of the "back up" ends that was pretty good, highlighted the way they played within the scheme and looked good. Chase due back this week?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

On 10/16/2022 at 10:11 AM, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Gotta give some credit, because both Sweat and Allen were somewhat gambles, due to "perceived" health concerns of theirs at the time. And other teams apparently passed on them because of that.

 

Eh, the #’s had to even out there considering how often Bruce went shopping in the bargain bin for players with injury histories.

[Warhead36]

I think Young returns to practice next week.

[Chris 44]

21 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I think Young returns to practice next week.

Was hoping this week. Oh well.