All things defense

[FootballZombie]

17 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

 

There is always... the forbidden pathway...

 

 

lol

 

Yeah, putting on that kind of mass in such a short time would be both exceedingly unlikely and problematic.

As I have been alluding to in his draft thread I'm not so much worried about the weight gain but rather what happens when its there.

 

If you think you can alter your body weight by more than 15% than run around in a physically demanding sport while making high speed and violent cuts... Yeah, that's a no.

Your body is gonna tap out real fast.

 

He will have to build muscle over time, otherwise he is a soft tissue injury waiting to happen.

[RandyHolt]

7 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

First pick 6 will end the conversation on his weight. 

First INT in OTAs will end conversation on his weight.

 

FTFY

 

Joking aside I will still be watching to see how he holds up as my first round expectations won't go away that fast. I still hold Chase to his. I wonder if Forbes had an agent/PR folk pre-draft and if so feel like he should have gotten any incorrect weight addressed. Draft position = mo $$$

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Anselmheifer]

As we move further from the draft, it seems maybe better to post some of the prospect specific things here. 
 

Great hype video. Watching this video, the thing that strikes me most is the anticipation. The elite football instincts. He’s the opposite of William Jackson. The situation reminds me of Tyrann Mathieu. Too small, but an elite, elite sense for the game and nose for the ball. Forbes’ tools are better than Tyrann’s though. He is slight, but he has the classic length and explosion for the position. 
 

I just don’t see this pick flaming out. The instincts, tools and scheme match are too good. At worst, he’ll be a good corner. I think he becomes an impact player though, and sooner, rather than later. 
 

 

[Koolblue13]

39 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

First INT in OTAs will end conversation on his weight.

 

And in full on RedTeamDers that's his only INT of the season. 

 

I think Forbes is going to be very very good. Could even be elite in a few years. Not the pick that I would have made, but he's gonna be good.

[skinzplay]

Today, he's 171. He's gonna be fine, in terms of weight; obviously hasn't even begun the regimen that the staff will put him on. Love the pick, love the player, excited about his (and our) future in that secondary.

 

 

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

5 hours ago, philibusters said:

 

 As somebody who lifts, I can tell you that is very optimistic.   While its possible a male in his twenties or thirties with really good genetics can put on 12-15 of muscle in 3 to 4 months if they were not lifting before, the vast majority of people who don't fit that specifications (almost all women, men over 40, men with average to bad genetics) cannot do that.   Now if you include water weight it does become easier to put on 12 pounds of lean body mass in 3 to 4 months (water weight is consider lean body mass) and its possible that the author of the article is conflating muscle with lean body mass.    A lot of water can come from increased glycogen or creatine (if somebody starts supplementing with creatine) and that water weight is technically stored in the muscle, so it could be argued its mucle, but adding that to your muscle mass won't increase your strength and explosiveness in the same way increasing dense muscle mass will.

 

In regards to the Hollywood actors who transform their body, they are most likely either taking illegal steroids or alternatively using  testosterone replacement therapy (which is legal, but not allowed in the NFL) to get results quite a bit faster than you could get it without extra help.

That's the question, how much has he focused on weight/mass in the past. He didn't "need" it in college per se and I'm sure he's in great shape. I'm not saying he can't play at his current weight..just saying the trainers will look and see what works with him (my advanced resources comment-NFL not College). I respect a bunch of the posters on here for their knowledge. This tool making derogatory comments doesn't even rank so IDGAS

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

23 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

 

I love this video. I also find it humorous that Pat Summerall suggested that DG may have injured his hamstring. Um Pat, when athletes injure their hamstring, they grab the back of their thigh area ( like mlb players running to 1st base )  They don't grab their stomach/side area 🤣  That looked more like a rib or oblique possibility to me... 

[Est.1974]

22 minutes ago, AlwaysBeRedskins2Me said:

I love this video. I also find it humorous that Pat Summerall suggested that DG may have injured his hamstring. Um Pat, when athletes injure their hamstring, they grab the back of their thigh area ( like mlb players running to 1st base )  They don't grab their stomach/side area 🤣  That looked more like a rib or oblique possibility to me... 

great video, great memory.

[Darth Tater]

5 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

First INT in OTAs will end conversation on his weight.

 

FTFY

 

Joking aside I will still be watching to see how he holds up as my first round expectations won't go away that fast. I still hold Chase to his. I wonder if Forbes had an agent/PR folk pre-draft and if so feel like he should have gotten any incorrect weight addressed. Draft position = mo $$$

 

Last season, our whole defense in 17 games had just 2 TDs on ints while Forbes had 3 over 12 games.  We had only 9 interceptions as a team, he had 6 by himself. Only Kendall Fuller had double digits in the PD stat over those games, Forbes got his hands on the ball 10 other times besides his 6 interceptions. Defensively, the only thing we did not have was the ability to get off the field before down 3, play makers on defense are a huge need when your offense is mediocre.

[wit33]

6 hours ago, Darth Tater said:

Last season, our whole defense in 17 games had just 2 TDs on ints while Forbes had 3 over 12 games.  We had only 9 interceptions as a team, he had 6 by himself. Only Kendall Fuller had double digits in the PD stat over those games, Forbes got his hands on the ball 10 other times besides his 6 interceptions. Defensively, the only thing we did not have was the ability to get off the field before down 3, play makers on defense are a huge need when your offense is mediocre.

New NFL… can’t just be “good” in coverage as a DB to impact the game, must create TOs. 
 

Much like the wing defender in the NBA years ago, they had to become 3 and D players to remain on the floor. A DB can’t just defense they must be able to hit the 3/be a threat to get TOs. 
 

Dbs over the next 10-20 years will evolve into ball hawks over coverage guys. Not enough value to cover well against prolific passing attacks these days. 

Edited May 6, 2023 by wit33

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

11 hours ago, KDawg said:

To be honest, it's not. It is a very real and very valid concern.

 

Having said that...

 

He's survived at 166 so far in the SEC. It's not the NFL, but he's our guy and we just need to let it play out and see what happens instead of some folks constantly using it as a reason the guy stinks.

 

If people think Forbes stinks they don't know what they are watching. So... let's see what happens. 

 

For you it’s a real and valid concern, I understand.
 

For the Commanders FO I’d say it’s much less so given the 1st round commitment.
 

For me, it’s a nothing burger given it hasn’t been an actual problem yet up to this point in his career. I guess I’ll worry about it if we actually have to is all.  🤷🏽‍♂️
 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by COWBOY-KILLA-

[RandyHolt]

4 hours ago, wit33 said:

New NFL… can’t just be “good” in coverage as a DB to impact the game, must l retake TOs. 
 

Much like the wing defender in the NBA years ago, they had to become 3 and D players to remain on the floor. A DB can’t just defense they must be able to hit the 3/be a threat to get TOs. 
 

Dbs over the next 10-20 years will evolve into ball hawks over coverage guys. Not enough value to cover well against prolific passing attacks these days. 

NFL QB play aint what is used to be. Completion % in the 50s used to be common place in my lifetime. Now 70% isnt rare. QBs simply throw INTs less and less and get benched if they do. The Fitzpatrick Grossman Jameis Winston 5 INT games of the past are long gone. A DB with 6 INTs lead the league last year.

 

I still contend ballhawk CB is simply code for someone that free lances or is allowed to do so.This aint college. DCs run a tight ship and free lancing simply doesnt occur. INTs are often the product of bad throws tips pressures yet the DB gets all the glory. What happened to all the ballhawk DBs we targeted over the past decade or 2?   Rambo Jimmy... I know there were more. They sucked but us fans will always fall for the ballhawk hype. I know I was in the fan club cheering every Moreland OTA INT I read here.

 

Forrest had 4 last year - ranked 11th. Anyone care to set the Forbes INT O/U #? What are everyone's expectations - that's the game here with 4 months to kill looking at our shiny new draft pick.

 

Here are last years leaders. I don't think these are the league stop ballhawks are they... Bland better than Diggs?

 

Good corners do not get thrown at so INTs are rare. Learn it. Know it. Live it. Great movie.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by RandyHolt

[wit33]

15 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

NFL QB play aint what is used to be. Completion % in the 50s used to be common place in my lifetime. Now 70% isnt rare. QBs simply throw INTs less and less and get benched if they do. The Fitzpatrick Grossman Jameis Winston 5 INT games of the past are long gone. A DB with 6 INTs lead the league last year.

No doubt, INTs are way down from 30-40 years ago—I get that. 

 

15 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

 

I still contend ballhawk CB is simply code for someone that free lances or is allowed to do so.This aint college. DCs run a tight ship and free lancing simply doesnt occur. INTs are often the product of bad throws tips pressures yet the DB gets all the glory. What happened to all the ballhawk DBs we targeted over the past decade or 2?   Rambo Jimmy... I know there were more. They sucked but us fans will always fall for the ballhawk hype. I know I was in the fan club cheering every Moreland OTA INT I read here.

 

Ball Hawk for me is some with ball instincts and if given the opportunity can make a play. Also, it’s not just about the number of INTs it’s having offense know there’s a guy who’s a threat to take make a play. I believe this impacts how OCs and QBs attack in a game—it won’t always show up on the stat sheet the impact of having a ball hawk. 
 

This ball hawker compared to one’s you listed is an elite talent.

 

15 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Forrest had 4 last year - ranked 11th. Anyone care to set the Forbes INT O/U #? What are everyone's expectations - that's the game here with 4 months to kill looking at our shiny new draft pick.

 

Here are last years leaders. I don't think these are the league stop ballhawks are they... Bland better than Diggs?

 

Good corners do not get thrown at so INTs are rare. Learn it. Know it. Live it. Great movie.

 

 

All corners get the ball thrown at them these days (from my eye watching, have not checked stats) the rules favor the offense and is damn hard to be a lock down guy in a todays game.

 

I like the Washington zone scheme looking to attack the ball, they identified needing more playmakers and speed. I’ll concede a ball hawker these days is also someone who can play the ball in the air and compete, it may not result in an INT but now you have two guys going up for the ball equally competing to make the catch. 

[Warhead36]

The thing about having a high INT DB is that it dictates opposing offenses. Teams don't want to risk throwing at them for fear of turning it over. That allows defensive coordinators to do some creative things.

 

Its a domino effect. Its like having a guy who hits a ton of home runs in your lineup in baseball. Pitchers have to pitch around him more. He draws walks and drives up pitch counts, which in turn means his teammates get better pitches to hit and the opposing pitcher wears out faster, etc. etc. 

 

Imagine our DL in full pass rush mode with all four guys healthy, fit, and in form. But now there is a ballhawk lurking in the secondary. You can't just dial up any random pass play in his direction because he could sniff it out and pick it off, you HAVE to throw somewhere else. Well, the DC knows that, and can shift coverages in that area. That means OTHER guys have a chance at making plays.

[Darth Tater]

18 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

NFL QB play aint what is used to be. Completion % in the 50s used to be common place in my lifetime. Now 70% isnt rare. QBs simply throw INTs less and less and get benched if they do. The Fitzpatrick Grossman Jameis Winston 5 INT games of the past are long gone. A DB with 6 INTs lead the league last year.

 

 

That may be true but we were 28th getting interceptions last year and 26th overall in TOs. Only 2 teams were worse than us at ending opponent drives with TOs. 3 teams lapped us in interceptions and half the NFL had significantly more. We had the worst average starting field position in the NFL and, while much of the problem was that we just were not good in the return game, some of that is due to lack of short field opportunities created by lack of TOs. Lack of TOs were the only real weaknesses of our defense last year and it is a primary reason our top 10 defense is not mentioned with the likes of Dallas and Philadelphia.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

If you want to inject some major hype straight into your veins, here you go.

Add in some rookies that do better in the turnover category, and regression to the mean for lack of turnovers hitting closer to average and...the defense could be surprising.

 

For the record, we had 9 interceptions and 8 forced fumbles last season. That's absymally low. Yet our defense was still 9th last season by DVOA. The league leader in turnovers usually has mid-30's, with uncommonly dominant seasons hitting 40ish.

[philibusters]

26 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

If you want to inject some major hype straight into your veins, here you go.

Add in some rookies that do better in the turnover category, and regression to the mean for lack of turnovers hitting closer to average and...the defense could be surprising.

 

For the record, we had 9 interceptions and 8 forced fumbles last season. That's absymally low. Yet our defense was still 9th last season by DVOA. The league leader in turnovers usually has mid-30's, with uncommonly dominant seasons hitting 40ish.

 

Wow, according to that chart when turnovers are factored out we had the best defense in the NFL  with the Jets, Sains and Niners close behind.  That said, that chart says we had 5th best defense even with turnovers factored in.

[Warhead36]

If we could just get one more legit LB I'd be really ecstatic about the possibility of this defense.

[RandyHolt]

On 5/6/2023 at 4:17 PM, Darth Tater said:

That may be true but we were 28th getting interceptions last year and 26th overall in TOs. Only 2 teams were worse than us at ending opponent drives with TOs. 3 teams lapped us in interceptions and half the NFL had significantly more. We had the worst average starting field position in the NFL and, while much of the problem was that we just were not good in the return game, some of that is due to lack of short field opportunities created by lack of TOs. Lack of TOs were the only real weaknesses of our defense last year and it is a primary reason our top 10 defense is not mentioned with the likes of Dallas and Philadelphia.

Good post but I will stick to my guns and predict expectations are Forbes will be set too high to expect him to fix "turnovers" - that drafting 2 DBs with our first 2 picks will not make our defense warp from 28th to 16th or top 10 whatever.

 

The game is won in the trenches and predict if our pressures doesn't increase our INTs won't. As important - coaching. We don't blitz much so our DBs won't get gifted INTs like others may. I am not talking about rushing 5 either. I am talking bring 2+ and being creative about it. 2 things JDR abhors IMO. Forbes will be in bend dont break more than I like. I HATE BDB but its reality and its been a mainstay in our largely lame duck D for the past 2 decades. BNB makes a QB make ~10-15 throws in a 10 minute backbreaking drive which almost never results in TOs, as we hope we can hold em to a FG.

 

JDR and RR are why we finished 28th in INTs. There i said it. Passive conservative play calling is their calling card. Aggressive risk taking on D is how you generate TOs. See other teams have a designated ball stripper? Foreign concepts here.

 

The best play calling on D I have seen here was when we were 3-6 and Haslett pulled out the stops and we made the playoffs. We even beat a rookie QB in that game 10. Blitzed early in games vs only when backed inside our 20 #Predictable.

Edited May 11, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Warhead36]

4 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Good post but I will stick to my guns and predict expectations are Forbes will be set too high to expect him to fix "turnovers" - that drafting 2 DBs with our first 2 picks will not make our defense warp from 28th to 16th or top 10 whatever.

Turnovers tend to be pretty volatile. I don't think its unreasonable to think we naturally generate more takeaways due to the volatility of the stat. Then you factor in drafting two ballhawk DBs, Young getting closer to healthy form, and Davis blossoming in year 3 and its a fairly safe assumption.

6 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

 

The game is won in the trenches and predict if our pressures doesn't increase our INTs won't. As important - coaching. We don't blitz much so our DBs won't get gifted INTs like others may. I am not talking about rushing 5 either. I am talking bring 2+ and being creative about it. 2 things JDR abhors IMO. Forbes will be in bend dont break more than I like. I HATE BDB but its reality and its been a mainstay in our largely lame duck D for the past 2 decades. BNB makes a QB make ~10-15 throws in a 10 minute backbreaking drive which almost never results in TOs, as we hope we can hold em to a FG.

 

Bend but don't break is basically how you have to play defense nowadays if you aren't generating takeaways. We finished 8th in points allowed and 3rd in yards allowed. Its hard to complain too much about our defense. 

[skinny21]

On 5/10/2023 at 9:54 PM, Warhead36 said:

Turnovers tend to be pretty volatile. I don't think its unreasonable to think we naturally generate more takeaways due to the volatility of the stat. Then you factor in drafting two ballhawk DBs, Young getting closer to healthy form, and Davis blossoming in year 3 and its a fairly safe assumption.

Bend but don't break is basically how you have to play defense nowadays if you aren't generating takeaways. We finished 8th in points allowed and 3rd in yards allowed. Its hard to complain too much about our defense. 

I also think we have maybe also added some of the press man potential (situationally) that they were shooting for with William Jackson.  Forbes got many of his picks this way (AFAIR), St Juste and Curl can man a receiver/TE, and Davis/Barton seem like they have some coverage chops for covering backs.  Don’t really know about the rest though - Fuller, Quan, Forrest, Butler, etc.

 

 

Count me as one underwhelmed by our ILBs, but I don’t know that we’re all that bad off.  Of course, a lot of that depends on Barton, including how he transitions to this D and plays behind this Dline.  To me, he’s a roughly lateral move from Holcomb, the difference being that last year was his first starting (I think?) vs Holcomb’s 4th, so there’s some hope for his play continuing to ascend/develop, whereas Holcomb probably hit his peak.  

Davis hopefully continues his development arc.  We’ll see.

Mayo seemed like a fine fill-in for Holcomb (though there are trade-offs between them), and a ST demon.  I recall Tress talking to another team’s punter who said Mayo was the one their STers were told to watch out for…  

No telling if he pans out, but they obviously like Eifler - and backer is a spot that usually requires patience in development.  

Hudson of course is our STer/emergency backup.

 

I’ll admit though - lot of “hoping” there, so it could well fall apart.

 

 

Looking at the D more broadly:

I’ve got Holmes, Johnson, Dantzler and the UDFA Illini kid vying for the last 2 db spots.  Quan, to me, much like McCain, is likely going to be a FS by name, but a (slot) corner by snaps, so a “6th” safety wouldn’t surprise me.

I’m hoping Eifler steps up to compete with Barton, but probably more realistic to think he’s competing with Hudson - though I could see them keeping 5 there.

DE is going to be interesting.  I’m not counting JSW, Toohill or WBK as safe, particularly if they see Obada as a flex DE/DT.  I’d think they do keep one of those 3 though.  Would be surprised if Jones lands a spot, but Henry very well could.  If they see Obada in both roles, I think 9 dlinemen (as opposed to 10) is very possible.

9 DL, 10 dbs, and 5 backers gives you 24.

[method man]

On 5/16/2023 at 12:32 PM, skinny21 said:

I also think we have maybe also added some of the press man potential (situationally) that they were shooting for with William Jackson.  Forbes got many of his picks this way (AFAIR), St Juste and Curl can man a receiver/TE, and Davis/Barton seem like they have some coverage chops for covering backs.  Don’t really know about the rest though - Fuller, Quan, Forrest, Butler, etc.

 

 

Count me as one underwhelmed by our ILBs, but I don’t know that we’re all that bad off.  Of course, a lot of that depends on Barton, including how he transitions to this D and plays behind this Dline.  To me, he’s a roughly lateral move from Holcomb, the difference being that last year was his first starting (I think?) vs Holcomb’s 4th, so there’s some hope for his play continuing to ascend/develop, whereas Holcomb probably hit his peak.  

Davis hopefully continues his development arc.  We’ll see.

Mayo seemed like a fine fill-in for Holcomb (though there are trade-offs between them), and a ST demon.  I recall Tress talking to another team’s punter who said Mayo was the one their STers were told to watch out for…  

No telling if he pans out, but they obviously like Eifler - and backer is a spot that usually requires patience in development.  

Hudson of course is our STer/emergency backup.

 

I’ll admit though - lot of “hoping” there, so it could well fall apart.

 

 

Looking at the D more broadly:

I’ve got Holmes, Johnson, Dantzler and the UDFA Illini kid vying for the last 2 db spots.  Quan, to me, much like McCain, is likely going to be a FS by name, but a (slot) corner by snaps, so a “6th” safety wouldn’t surprise me.

I’m hoping Eifler steps up to compete with Barton, but probably more realistic to think he’s competing with Hudson - though I could see them keeping 5 there.

DE is going to be interesting.  I’m not counting JSW, Toohill or WBK as safe, particularly if they see Obada as a flex DE/DT.  I’d think they do keep one of those 3 though.  Would be surprised if Jones lands a spot, but Henry very well could.  If they see Obada in both roles, I think 9 dlinemen (as opposed to 10) is very possible.

9 DL, 10 dbs, and 5 backers gives you 24.

 

What is encouraging for the DBs is that the practice squad is going to be stacked with guys like TCF and Wildgoose

[ultravin]

Very optimistic for this up coming season.  Chase and Montez know they need to ball in order to get paid.  Same with Curl.  2024, they can afford to extend all three.  Releasing Leno and Logan will create over 100 million in cap space with room to get a “star” player.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

17 minutes ago, ultravin said:

Very optimistic for this up coming season.  Chase and Montez know they need to ball in order to get paid.  Same with Curl.  2024, they can afford to extend all three.  Releasing Leno and Logan will create over 100 million in cap space with room to get a “star” player.  

 

For some reason I thought you said "pessimistic" and was highly confused by the rest of your post lol...

[method man]

25 minutes ago, ultravin said:

Very optimistic for this up coming season.  Chase and Montez know they need to ball in order to get paid.  Same with Curl.  2024, they can afford to extend all three.  Releasing Leno and Logan will create over 100 million in cap space with room to get a “star” player.  

I don’t know why so many on this board want to release Leno and/or Lucas. One guy is an average LT making average LT money while being a strong locker room presence and the other guy is one of the best swing tackles in the league and has had to play a ton since coming here