The Guardian: Joe Biden's gender discrimination order offers hope for young trans athletes - Discussion Thread

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 hours ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

3 things that absolutely are not happening…except in the fevered imaginations and projections of really messed up people.

 

1.  Folks transitioning so they can finish higher in sporting events.

2.  Folks transitioning so they can sneak into bathrooms and locker rooms and assault people.

3.  Evil doctors forcing teens and their families to sign up against their will for lucrative gender transition packages.

 

So? 

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Call it what you will, but the right has become so repugnant - any time my views align with theirs even if not for the same reasons, I have to question my own views.

 

Considering you lean right - which is pretty obvious btw - just on the subject matters you participate in.  Nothing personal, just an observation.

 

 

 

I called it what I did...I think it's ridiculous to let someone else's viewpoint have that much impact of your own. I'm not offended by leaning right on many issues. I don't consider it an insult

 

I believe when it comes to gender reassignment, etc. the primary focus until 18 should be on the mental health side of things. Therefore, I suppose I differ from the "right" on that veiwpoint of not supporting any of that. I believe it's critical for all teens these days...they just deal with so many more variables than my generation did growing up. But, it's especially important for teens questioning their identity (whether that's gender, sexual orientation, or even things more familiar to some of us like the questions we dealt with of "how do I fit in" or "are my childhood friends going to be my high school friends"). 

 

Sorry, I went on a mental health tangent. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I called it what I did...I think it's ridiculous to let someone else's viewpoint have that much impact of your own. I'm not offended by leaning right on many issues. I don't consider it an insult

Oh, I'm aware of why you called it that and didn't expect you to understand where I'm coming from, given you're actually proud of your affiliation.  I didn't say that it had that much impact on my own, it just makes me question if I'm being closed minded on the few topics where I'm more in alignment with the right.  You should try it some time, because if you lean right on most things - chances are you're close minded and don't even realize it.

Edited April 8, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[tshile]

I think it’s perfectly reasonable to be a conservative and lean right. 
 

i don’t think thats the same thing as siding with modern day Republican Party. In many ways I don’t see anything conservative about them. They’ve co-opted the term. 
 

i consider myself conservative on some issues - but I refuse to vote for anyone labeled a Republican unless they have a strong, public stance against the ****ization of the party that’s taken place. 
 

But on the same note - anytime I see these fascists on the same side of an issue as me it indeed makes me think hard about what my opinion is and whether I’m wrong. And sometimes I am. And other times it’s just a coincidence. 
 

i think you’re right in that aspect but I think you’re going after the wrong person in the wrong way here. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by tshile

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Oh, I'm aware of why you called it that and didn't expect you to understand where I'm coming from, given you're actually proud of your affiliation.  I didn't say that it had that much impact on my own, it just makes me question if I'm being closed minded on the few topics where I'm more in alignment with the right.  You should try it some time, because if you lean right on most things - chances are you're close minded and don't even realize it.

It's funny - in the real world (my friends and family) I'm made fun of for the fact that I insist on doing a 360 on every topic and putting myself on other sides of every issue. I am pretty much the definition of open-minded which is why I don't really care which party shares a particular view of mine. For example, I'm extremely pro-choice and don't care one bit that it's considered a liberal stance. It's just that if I were to add up every issue I would guess more are conservative than liberal...though I've never really taken the time to do so. So, I'm not so much proud of my affiliation with a party as I'm comfortable with a particular value that I may have. 

 

Anyway, I'll keep trying to be polite and civil...as I feel I have been when discussing these topics. I don't think my stance on this has been outlandish or unreasonable at all. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

24 minutes ago, tshile said:

I think it’s perfectly reasonable to be a conservative and lean right. 
 

i don’t think thats the same thing as siding with modern day Republican Party. In many ways I don’t see anything conservative about them. They’ve co-opted the term. 
 

i consider myself conservative on some issues - but I refuse to vote for anyone labeled a Republican unless they have a strong, public stance against the ****ization of the party that’s taken place. 
 

But on the same note - anytime I see these fascists on the same side of an issue as me it indeed makes me think hard about what my opinion is and whether I’m wrong. And sometimes I am. And other times it’s just a coincidence. 
 

i think you’re right in that aspect but I think you’re going after the wrong person in the wrong way here. 

I’m not going after @TD_washingtonredskins, just being honest about how I feel.  In fact, I live amongst mostly hardcore right wingers and for those that I can talk to - they’ve had some a-ha moments when I bring this topic up.  Doesn’t change much, as they are still “lesser of evils” in regards to their affiliation.  I’m not much different as that’s exactly how I feel about the democrats.  That’s primarily because this current version of the GOP is the least palatable version I’ve experienced in my life and see zero hope that it gets turned around.  That is unless some how some way a guy like Kinzinger resonates with the moderates.

4 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Anyway, I'll keep trying to be polite and civil...as I feel I have been when discussing these topics. I don't think my stance on this has been outlandish or unreasonable at all. 

We actually agree on this topic.  My only point was that because the majority of folks who also think this way tend to be close minded folks, it gives me some pause.

[The Evil Genius]

Personally,  I think forcing a teenager who knows they are transgender to go through puberty of the sex they were born with isn't helpful either. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by The Evil Genius

[CousinsCowgirl84]

 

5 hours ago, tshile said:

 

i consider myself conservative on some issues - but I refuse to vote for anyone labeled a Republican unless they have a strong, public stance against the ****ization of the party that’s taken place. 
 

 

Because you know they are either stupid or evil. It’s sad.  And it’s really not possible to win a republican primary unless you play the “Trumps ideas weren’t all bad” card… 

Edited April 9, 2022 by CousinsCowgirl84

[TD_washingtonredskins]

On 4/8/2022 at 11:11 PM, The Evil Genius said:

Personally,  I think forcing a teenager who knows they are transgender to go through puberty of the sex they were born with isn't helpful either. 

 

The point is we, as a society, have implied with our laws that teenagers are fickle and aren't quite ready to "know" anything yet. We don't let them vote or make many high-impact decisions so why would we allow them to make this one? 

 

[skinsmarydu]

I came out of the "Cinderella" stage when I was 7.  We moved to Sterling Park, and I became a Redskins fan.  Got the little leather cheerleader jacket (that I can still recall the scent of, I loved it so much).  I realized that I was a "tomboy", wanted to climb trees and fences and such, learned to run a route to catch a football, and my dad was all about it...he was a huge part of my obsession with sports. 

One of my hockey girlfriends has a tween daughter going through the identity "crisis" now, and she just lets it roll.  We all agreed that no matter how it all ends up, she'll be loved and respected. 

[tshile]

 

saw this in the Peruvian restaurant in Hollywood florida tonight (I ordered the octopus it was great)

 

loved it. 

[PeterMP]

On 4/10/2022 at 3:40 PM, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

The point is we, as a society, have implied with our laws that teenagers are fickle and aren't quite ready to "know" anything yet. We don't let them vote or make many high-impact decisions so why would we allow them to make this one? 

 

The first issue is a decision is being made one way or another.

 

This isn't a case where you can really put off making a decision.  Both decisions, to transition and not transition, have consequences.

 

The other thing is that all stereotypes when applied to every single individual in the population always have issues.  That is essentially what you are doing.  Teenagers are fickle so mo teenager can ever be trusted to make a big decision.

 

Lastly, unless I missed nobody is saying to completely leave it up teens.  I don't think anybody is saying to that parents or some other adults should be completely removed from the process.

Edited April 12, 2022 by PeterMP

[86 Snyder]

I’m an open minded progressive and have to admit, I don’t really understand this issue to the point where I have any sort of conviction about how it should or shouldn’t be handled.  And guess what?  There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that because it doesn’t have anything to do with me.  Humans don’t need to have strong takes about everything.  
 

I’ve worked with a couple transgendered peeps.  If I’m being completely honest, I was a little uncomfortable around them.  Not really sure why, but I was.  Guess what?  There’s plenty of cisgendered peeps that make me uncomfortable to be around also.  Guess what else?  I treated the transgendered exactly the same as the cisgendered and everything was fine.  And even if I can’t fully wrap my head around it yet, I will always support equal rights for any group of people.  
 

Now when it comes to athletic competition, I do have an issue with Lia Thomas being allowed to compete in the Women’s division.  And I don’t pretend to offer any solutions either, but I think Lia’s rights end where the other swimmer’s rights begin.  And I do think their rights are being encroached upon in this particular case.  I am all for anyone being whomever they want to be in life but the biology in this specific scenario creates an unfair advantage when it comes to sport.

 

It’s par for the course though for new day conservatives to turn this issue into a national epidemic and act like it’s rippIng the country apart.  It’s hateful.  It’s small.  It’s manufactured.  This is what these jackasses do.  

 

You get one trans swimmer and a handful of teachers being weirdos and they blow it galaxies out of proportion and create a boogeyman.  Probably 95% of the guilty ones are too stupid to even realize what they’re doing. They see a couple things that challenge their Almighty worldview and turn it into a reason to start the Crusades.  Then their even stupider followers lap it up and have a competition to see who can recycle it in the dumbest ways possible.  Nevermind that they completely ignore, or ACTUALLY, actively work to cover up, the atrocities of the Catholic.  You want to talk about groomers?  The Catholic Church is the undisputed all-time champion of this category.

But the biggest problem is the other 5% that actually know better.  They are the dangerous ones because they know they can weaponize uncomfortable truths to win votes and further their interests.  2nd Amendment. Israel.  Abortion.  Borders. Socialism.  Masks.  CRT.  Vaccines. LGBTQ.  It will never ****ing end.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by 86 Snyder

[TD_washingtonredskins]

19 hours ago, PeterMP said:

The first issue is a decision is being made one way or another.

 

This isn't a case where you can really put off making a decision.  Both decisions, to transition and not transition, have consequences.

 

The other thing is that all stereotypes when applied to every single individual in the population always have issues.  That is essentially what you are doing.  Teenagers are fickle so mo teenager can ever be trusted to make a big decision.

 

Lastly, unless I missed nobody is saying to completely leave it up teens.  I don't think anybody is saying to that parents or some other adults should be completely removed from the process.

 

Understood. But by your logic that some teenagers are capable or mature enough to make good decisions (I agree, by the way), why aren't we finding those teenagers and making exceptions to let them drink responsibly or vote or carry a gun or serve in the military or skip high school to play in the NBA? 

 

 

[Hersh]

37 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Understood. But by your logic that some teenagers are capable or mature enough to make good decisions (I agree, by the way), why aren't we finding those teenagers and making exceptions to let them drink responsibly or vote or carry a gun or serve in the military or skip high school to play in the NBA? 

 

 

 

They already can serve in the military, play professional sports, definitely handle guns, skip high school, etc. A teenager is defined as 13-19. 

[bearrock]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Understood. But by your logic that some teenagers are capable or mature enough to make good decisions (I agree, by the way), why aren't we finding those teenagers and making exceptions to let them drink responsibly or vote or carry a gun or serve in the military or skip high school to play in the NBA? 

 

 

Well, in many states minors can get married with parental consent.  Minors are allowed to drink in private, non-retail setting with parental consent in Virginia.  I would be opposed to teens having unilateral decision making power in this regard but shutting down all possibility of hormone or surgical transition regardless of parental/medical/judicial consent seems too much.

[Cooked Crack]

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

15 hours ago, Cooked Crack said:

 

I'm not sure I understand the impact of this...can someone smarter than me explain it? Does it mean that if a baby is born with a penis but parents want to classify it as non-binary (so the parents, not the child are making that decision), they don't have the right to do so? 

[bcl05]

There are some babies that are born with ambiguous genitalia or genitalia that don't match their chromosomal sex.  I am a geneticist, and see them regularly.  While the vast majority of newborns can be accurately assigned a biologic sex at birth, that is definitely not the case for everyone.  

 

I assume this law is intended for the exceedingly rare performatively liberal parents who would rather put non-binary pronouns on their newborn (whom I think are rather silly, but also harmless), but the collateral harm to patients and families who are biologically ambiguous or complicated might be significant.  

 

 

[The Evil Genius]

 

I'd definitely recommend reading the article. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

43 minutes ago, bcl05 said:

There are some babies that are born with ambiguous genitalia or genitalia that don't match their chromosomal sex.  I am a geneticist, and see them regularly.  While the vast majority of newborns can be accurately assigned a biologic sex at birth, that is definitely not the case for everyone.  

 

I assume this law is intended for the exceedingly rare performatively liberal parents who would rather put non-binary pronouns on their newborn (whom I think are rather silly, but also harmless), but the collateral harm to patients and families who are biologically ambiguous or complicated might be significant.  

 

 

Got it, thank you

[bcl05]

I've been thinking about this stupid OK law, and I wonder if it is more to stigmatize and marginalize parents who identify as non-binary or trans and disallow their use of their chosen signifiers on the birth certificate.  I could read more about it, but its too depressing, cynical, and cruel.  

[The Evil Genius]

53 minutes ago, bcl05 said:

I've been thinking about this stupid OK law, and I wonder if it is more to stigmatize and marginalize parents who identify as non-binary or trans and disallow their use of their chosen signifiers on the birth certificate.  I could read more about it, but its too depressing, cynical, and cruel.  

 

Of course it is. The current conservative movement is rooted in this (stigmatizing anything they think is beyond normal).. 

[Renegade7]

This is crazy, as I'm not even sure the best thing to do here. 

 

On one hand, the ACLU is already ready for the fight against forcing transgender women into male only prisons.  But this consensual sex, and unconstitutional to jus keep them in solitary so they don't get anyone pregnant. And the low number of transgender women in jail doesn't seem to justify a separate facility (yet?).

 

Need help on this one, ES, what say ye?

 

Two inmates impregnated by transgender inmate at all-women’s prison in New Jersey: Report

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/apr/14/two-inmates-impregnated-transgender-inmate-all-wom/

 

Quote

Two inmates at an all-women’s prison in New Jersey are pregnant after reportedly having sex with a transgender inmate.

 

The women are confined at the Edna Mahan Correctional Facility in Clinton, NJ.Com reported. It’s the state’s only all-women’s prison and is slated for closure following complaints about sexual assaults and other problems in the facility.

 

Dan Sperrazza, a spokesman for the New Jersey Department of Corrections, told NJ.com that the women became pregnant after “consensual sexual relationships with another incarcerated person.”

‌
The news website reported that the prison houses 27 transgender inmates, who are biological men identifying as women. They were transferred to the facility beginning in 2019 following a lawsuit filed by the ACLU and a transgender woman who complained of suffering from abuse in a men’s prison.

 

Biological women at Edna Mahan have complained they feel threatened and have been harassed by the transgender inmates. The transgender inmates are not required to undergo sex reassignment surgery in order to be housed with biological women.

 

Officials with the American Civil Liberties Union, the New Jersey Department of Corrections and the union representing the corrections officers at the facility did not immediately respond to a request for a comment.

 

Jeanne LoCicero, the ACLU’s  legal director, told NJ.Com that allowing biological men who identify as women to be housed along with biological women is “in line with New Jersey’s strong anti-discrimination laws that prevent discrimination and harassment on the basis of gender identity.”

 

The union representing the state’s corrections officers opposes housing transgender women in the facility.

“We opposed this policy change believing it would be detrimental to the general population of female inmates being housed at Edna Mahan and also bring added stress to our correctional police officers assigned to this institution,” New Jersey Superior Officers Association President Edward Sullivan told NJ.com.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Renegade7

[tshile]

6 hours ago, bcl05 said:

 

I assume this law is intended for the exceedingly rare performatively liberal parents who would rather put non-binary pronouns on their newborn (whom I think are rather silly, but also harmless), but the collateral harm to patients and families who are biologically ambiguous or complicated might be significant.  

um I think it’s also for adults seeking to change their official birth certificate. 
 

i believe there’s a legal process going on with a person who lives in Oregon or Wyoming that requested OK (where they were born) to change their birth certificate 

 

I’m sure there are some cases with newborns but my understanding is this really came about with adults seeking to change their original birth certificate