The Guardian: Joe Biden's gender discrimination order offers hope for young trans athletes - Discussion Thread

[GhostofSparta]

13 hours ago, PokerPacker said:

I love me some Malicious Compliance.

 

[LadySkinsFan]

To appease those posters who "encourage" me to post more information regarding transgender phenomena, here's an article that explains factual inaccuracies and omissions regarding the book I Am Jazz and Jazz Jennings. It was written in 2018, and gives insight to transgender phenomena. From the article:

 

Gender Dysphoria and Children: An Endocrinologist’s Evaluation of I am Jazz

APRIL 5, 2018BY MICHAEL K. LAIDLAW

I Am Jazz contains both false information and very troubling omissions. Children who are experiencing gender dysphoria will likely be harmed by this book, as will children who do not have the condition.

 

Recently, a group of parents asked me to review the book I Am Jazz to determine whether, from a medical point of view, it is suitable for children to read. They also asked this for the benefit of their school district, given that the topic of childhood gender dysphoria would be discussed at their upcoming school board meeting.

I have read the book I Am Jazz and examined the book’s relationship to childhood gender dysphoria and its implications for adolescence and adulthood. I am a board-certified physician in Rocklin, California specializing in Endocrinology, Diabetes, and Metabolism. Broadly, endocrinology is the study of hormones and glands and the diagnosis and treatment of diseases involving these hormones and glands. The following essay is a detailed presentation of my findings regarding this important topic.

 

Introduction

 

Children with gender dysphoria deserve our compassion and deserve to be treated with dignity and kindness, just like all other children. Their unique condition makes integrating in the school a challenge. Particularly when dealing with bathrooms and locker rooms, it would be advantageous for schools to have a comprehensive policy to address children with gender dysphoria.

 

To some degree, children who share a class with a gender-dysphoric child will need to be educated about what that means and how to address that situation. This should be done by parents and guardians primarily, but ideally in cooperation with teachers and staff.

 

Unfortunately, I Am Jazz actually works against educating children about gender dysphoria. In this essay, I use the book I Am Jazz and the TLC show of the same name to help illustrate medical facts about childhood gender dysphoria and adult transgenderism. I believe that if we know the facts about this condition, we will be much more compassionate and understanding toward people with this condition. This will also help in dealing with the parents of children without gender dysphoria who have to explain to their children how to cope with this condition.

 

The book I Am Jazz, by Jazz Jennings and Jessica Herthel, contains a number of factual inaccuracies and very significant omissions. I am very concerned that children or even adults who read these books will be given false ideas about transgenderism. This will lead to the harm of children, as has already happened at Rocklin Academy.

For context, I would highly recommend watching and listening to the I Am Jazz book being read by Jazz Jennings, which is available freely on Youtube. Throughout this essay, for the sake of clarity, I use the pronouns of Jazz’s biological sex.

 

 

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2018/04/21220

 

 

[Cooked Crack]

 

[LadySkinsFan]

Read the article I posted above. Children shouldn't receive any hormones or surgery until they're adults and can consent themselves. Why aren't we protecting children from this stuff?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

3 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said:

Read the article I posted above. Children shouldn't receive any hormones or surgery until they're adults and can consent themselves. Why aren't we protecting children from this stuff?

 

I agree. By all means, allow children to "be who they are" in how they act, talk, dress, etc. But I don't see the need to permit immature children to make these drastic medical decisions at such a young age. It's a very big deal and I don't see the harm in making them wait. We don't let them vote on who will run our country or vape legally...yet we'll let them act on what COULD be a phase and medically transition? From 18 until death they have the rest of their lives to do so...

[LadySkinsFan]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I agree. By all means, allow children to "be who they are" in how they act, talk, dress, etc. But I don't see the need to permit immature children to make these drastic medical decisions at such a young age. It's a very big deal and I don't see the harm in making them wait. We don't let them vote on who will run our country or vape legally...yet we'll let them act on what COULD be a phase and medically transition? From 18 until death they have the rest of their lives to do so...

 

Exactly my point. There are plenty of people who wanted one thing as children and another as adults. Plus by treating for trans instead of other mental health issues, the mental health issues don't go away and are still there. 

 

Jazz Jennings took puberty blockers and it stunted his penile growth so he had a child penis. There wasn't enough material to complete the surgery and he's had countless surgeries. The doctors have to discuss the outcomes that may cause problems, those are glossed over. Big surprises await those who don't have ideal outcomes. That's something children have way to cope with. He also is without sexual and reproductive abilities. I've watched that show for years and I feel so sorry for him. And I wonder why his parents let this happen.

 

Famous people example: Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitts daughter Shiloh for years in her early childhood dressed in boys clothes and it's reported that that she wanted to be called John. As an older teen now, she's wearing dresses to red carpet and other events, so the boy identity seems gone. 

 

As for me, teen years were hell. I wanted to be male because I was attracted to other girls and all I heard was my mother saying that's dirty. So for years I had to figure that out because what was dirty about liking girls instead of boys? And I was promiscuous because I tried hard to like and desire boys and I couldn't convince myself. It was only after having my daughter that I finally decided to be me regardless. 

 

Some parents will deal with trans children instead of gay or lesbian children. 

 

Anyway, it's a huge problem.

Edited April 8, 2022 by LadySkinsFan

[tshile]

This is where I throw my hands up

 

i don’t think parents, by default, know what’s best for their children. Most parents, to me, appear to be not very smart or even hateful. 
 

and while some people are mature and capable of making tough decisions at early ages, many are not. I wasn’t a good decision maker until 23 or so, and even then it was a work in progress for a while, and I struggled with even some of the more simple things in life. 
 

On the other hand gay people say they knew early on. And they say it’s not a choice. 
 

and trans people say the same thing. 
 

and since I have no personal experience in either, I have no idea what to think. 
 

ultimately I don’t want people, adults or children, to be hurt (in many of the ways they can be hurt) because of ‘who they are’ and society’s inability to deal with or support it. 
 

but I have no idea if it’s more hurtful to allow this sort of stuff at a young age, or not to not. I just don’t. 
 

and worse, it feels like even basic things like counseling get swept up in things like surgery. And I certainly don’t understand why any reasonable adult would think counseling, or other access to professionals where the context is to provide emotional or mental support or learning, for an individual going through an incredibly tough thing, is a bad thing. 
 

Just another thing where if the vast majority of adults actually behaved like adults, instead of pieces of garbage, we could probably have real conversations and start making progress. But, that’s too high of a bar for us. 

[bearrock]

I feel like society at large is taking a hammer to an issue that requires a nuanced approach.  I'm not willing to say no minor should ever receive medical treatment, including full transition, for gender dysphoria. But we have to be very careful that minors only get such procedure in appropriate situations with much deliberation.  

 

A very interesting op ed in WAPO at the end of last year.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/11/24/trans-kids-therapy-psychologist/

 

Quote

We are both psychologists who have dedicated our careers to serving transgender patients with ethical, evidence-based treatment. But we see a surge of gender dysphoria cases like Patricia’s — cases that are handled poorly. One of us was the founding psychologist in 2007 of the first pediatric gender clinic in the United States; the other is a transgender woman. We’ve held recent leadership positions in the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), which writes the standards of care for transgender people worldwide. Together, across decades of doing this work, we’ve helped hundreds of people transition their genders. This is an era of ugly moral panic about bathrooms, woke indoctrination and identity politics in general. In response, we enthusiastically support the appropriate gender-affirming medical care for trans youth, and we are disgusted by the legislation trying to ban it.

 

Quote

But the number of adolescents requesting medical care is skyrocketing: Now 1.8 percent of people under 18 identify as transgender, double the figure from five years earlier, according to the Trevor Project. A flood of referrals to mental health providers and gender medical clinics, combined with a political climate that sees the treatment of each individual patient as a litmus test of social tolerance, is spurring many providers into sloppy, dangerous care. Often from a place of genuine concern, they are hastily dispensing medicine or recommending medical doctors prescribe it — without following the strict guidelines that govern this treatment. Canada, too, is following our lead: A study of 10 pediatric gender clinics there found that half do not require psychological assessment before initiating puberty blockers or hormones.

 

Quote

The standards of care recommend mental health support and comprehensive assessment for all dysphoric youth before starting medical interventions. The process, done conscientiously, can take a few months (when a young person’s gender has been persistent and there are no simultaneous mental health issues) or up to several years in complicated cases. But few are trained to do it properly, and some clinicians don’t even believe in it, contending without evidence that treating dysphoria medically will resolve other mental health issues. Providers and their behavior haven’t been closely studied, but we find evidence every single day, from our peers across the country and concerned parents who reach out, that the field has moved from a more nuanced, individualized and developmentally appropriate assessment process to one where every problem looks like a medical one that can be solved quickly with medication or, ultimately, surgery. As a result, we may be harming some of the young people we strive to support — people who may not be prepared for the gender transitions they are being rushed into.

 

 

[mojo]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10698061/Disneys-head-content-says-BUSINESS-decision-target-Gen-Z-LGBTQ-content.html
 

Another Disney article where the CEO says Gen Z is 40% “queerer” then previous generations and they need to target them. I actually believe that figure.  You can’t tell me this is all nature “born that way” changes.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

12 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said:

 

Exactly my point. There are plenty of people who wanted one thing as children and another as adults. Plus by treating for trans instead of other mental health issues, the mental health issues don't go away and are still there. 

 

Jazz Jennings took puberty blockers and it stunted his penile growth so he had a child penis. There wasn't enough material to complete the surgery and he's had countless surgeries. The doctors have to discuss the outcomes that may cause problems, those are glossed over. Big surprises await those who don't have ideal outcomes. That's something children have way to cope with. He also is without sexual and reproductive abilities. I've watched that show for years and I feel so sorry for him. And I wonder why his parents let this happen.

 

Famous people example: Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitts daughter Shiloh for years in her early childhood dressed in boys clothes and it's reported that that she wanted to be called John. As an older teen now, she's wearing dresses to red carpet and other events, so the boy identity seems gone. 

 

As for me, teen years were hell. I wanted to be male because I was attracted to other girls and all I heard was my mother saying that's dirty. So for years I had to figure that out because what was dirty about liking girls instead of boys? And I was promiscuous because I tried hard to like and desire boys and I couldn't convince myself. It was only after having my daughter that I finally decided to be me regardless. 

 

Some parents will deal with trans children instead of gay or lesbian children. 

 

Anyway, it's a huge problem.

 

12 hours ago, tshile said:

This is where I throw my hands up

 

i don’t think parents, by default, know what’s best for their children. Most parents, to me, appear to be not very smart or even hateful. 
 

and while some people are mature and capable of making tough decisions at early ages, many are not. I wasn’t a good decision maker until 23 or so, and even then it was a work in progress for a while, and I struggled with even some of the more simple things in life. 
 

On the other hand gay people say they knew early on. And they say it’s not a choice. 
 

and trans people say the same thing. 
 

and since I have no personal experience in either, I have no idea what to think. 
 

ultimately I don’t want people, adults or children, to be hurt (in many of the ways they can be hurt) because of ‘who they are’ and society’s inability to deal with or support it. 
 

but I have no idea if it’s more hurtful to allow this sort of stuff at a young age, or not to not. I just don’t. 
 

and worse, it feels like even basic things like counseling get swept up in things like surgery. And I certainly don’t understand why any reasonable adult would think counseling, or other access to professionals where the context is to provide emotional or mental support or learning, for an individual going through an incredibly tough thing, is a bad thing. 
 

Just another thing where if the vast majority of adults actually behaved like adults, instead of pieces of garbage, we could probably have real conversations and start making progress. But, that’s too high of a bar for us. 

 

Both very good posts. 

 

Consistency is what drives me nuts on things like this. Again, we won't legally let a 14-year old sip wine or vote but we think he or she is informed and mature enough to undergo something as traumatic and drastic as this type of operation? No way. And call me whatever you want, I really don't see the need to do it at 17 or younger even in those cases that seem open-and-shut...what's the rush? 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I feel like if republicans weren't vehemently against anything trans, most people would agree that it seems like a real stretch to allow children to make life altering decisions.  But because republicans are anti-everything predominantly for the wrong reasons, ie: they're just generally hateful and less willing to accept people that are different, the other side has to go the complete opposite way.  

 

I do get it - like I've said on numerous occasions, who wants to agree with the side of the nazis? 

 

Which is why I'm just thankful to this point in my life, this hasn't impacted me or my family.

33 minutes ago, mojo said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10698061/Disneys-head-content-says-BUSINESS-decision-target-Gen-Z-LGBTQ-content.html
 

Another Disney article where the CEO says Gen Z is 40% “queerer” then previous generations and they need to target them. I actually believe that figure.  You can’t tell me this is all nature “born that way” changes.

Or are folks 40% more likely to openly admit they are gay?

 

I look back to growing up in PG & Charles County and then moving to WV (80s - 90s) - didn't matter the demographic, gay was considered incredibly taboo.  I cannot recall many openly gay people whatsoever.  That doesn't mean there weren't tons of gay people, they just didn't feel comfortable being open about it for numerous reasons.

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[GhostofSparta]

33 minutes ago, mojo said:

 You can’t tell me this is all nature “born that way” changes.

Agreed. A lot more of it is "You no longer have to be forced to hide it with the threat of being assaulted or killed by your peers, and you are much less likely to become that 'kid we all bullied for being weird/different who committed suicide'" changes that have been increasing the amount of people willing to come out over the last few generations.

[bearrock]

26 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

 

Both very good posts. 

 

Consistency is what drives me nuts on things like this. Again, we won't legally let a 14-year old sip wine or vote but we think he or she is informed and mature enough to undergo something as traumatic and drastic as this type of operation? No way. And call me whatever you want, I really don't see the need to do it at 17 or younger even in those cases that seem open-and-shut...what's the rush? 

 

 

 

But that Alabama bill forbids all gender affirming treatment, even if parents and doctors are all on board.  I can see taking the decision out of the sole decision of the minor, but what's the need to blanket ban all gender affirming treatment?

[mojo]

9 minutes ago, GhostofSparta said:

Agreed. A lot more of it is "You no longer have to be forced to hide it with the threat of being assaulted or killed by your peers, and you are much less likely to become that 'kid we all bullied for being weird/different who committed suicide'" changes that have been increasing the amount of people willing to come out over the last few generations.

I’m not talking 1960 vs today.  I’m talking 5 years ago vs today.  Do you really think it was such a brutal atmosphere for homosexuals 5 years ago?

[tshile]

7 minutes ago, mojo said:

I’m not talking 1960 vs today.  I’m talking 5 years ago vs today.  Do you really think it was such a brutal atmosphere for homosexuals 5 years ago?

Yes. 
 

The gay rights and acceptance thing sort of just happened. 
 

and there’s plenty of hateful people that still won’t accept it. 
 

It was under the Obama administration (or was that trump? If it was that’s even more recent …) that certain states did dumb **** like refuse to issue marriage license after scotus deemed it unconstitutional. 
 

Not to mention your article is talking about different generations, and you’re already walking that back to “5 years ago”

 

Gen z is born 1997 to 2012. 
 

Yeah man. A lot changed during those years. Find a better argument. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by tshile

[TD_washingtonredskins]

22 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I feel like if republicans weren't vehemently against anything trans, most people would agree that it seems like a real stretch to allow children to make life altering decisions.  But because republicans are anti-everything predominantly for the wrong reasons, ie: they're just generally hateful and less willing to accept people that are different, the other side has to go the complete opposite way.  

 

I do get it - like I've said on numerous occasions, who wants to agree with the side of the nazis? 

 

That's a ridiculous reason and extremely weak stance to "go along" with a bad policy. We will let children make potentially bad life-altering decision simply because we don't want to agree with Republicans? Yikes. 

 

I don't get it...at all. I lean right, but when I agree with Biden, Pelosi, or any of them...I'm OK with that. I don't let that cloud what my moral compass is. 

 

3 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

But that Alabama bill forbids all gender affirming treatment, even if parents and doctors are all on board.  I can see taking the decision out of the sole decision of the minor, but what's the need to blanket ban all gender affirming treatment?

 

I agree with you. That's not a good policy either. Counseling, etc. shouldn't be wrapped into this. Where I have my issue is with anything that is potentially life-altering. If anything, you'd think the bigoted folks would be encouraging more counseling and therapy to "cure" them

[tshile]

@mojo

 

Gen z is born 1997 to 2012. 
 

Yeah man. A lot changed during those years alone. And comparing to other generations - a hell of a lot changed. I was in grade school 1991-2003 and being gay wasn’t widely acceptable at all and would absolutely make you a target.
 

and yeah one kid did kill himself in highschool over it. 
 

your argument is complete garbage. 

[GhostofSparta]

1 minute ago, mojo said:

I’m not talking 1960 vs today.  I’m talking 5 years ago vs today. 

Well that can be a bit difficult to infer when you start by talking specifically about "Gen Z vs. previous generations." But specifically about Gen Z: Since Gen Z are those born (roughly) 1997-2012, then I'd say I'm not at all surprised that a group that's currently 10-25 years old might have an easier time coming out now than when they were 5-20, yes. Especially because, if you haven't been paying super close attention to certain states lately, some states are attempting to make it really difficult again for non-heterosexual kids to feel comfortable outing themselves in high school. So a generation who are barely in middle school to barely out of college may have had their "elders" been a little more vocal in their extremely early adulthood about not hiding who they are an encouraging their younger sibling/cousins/friends to do the same, yes. 

 

Plus, there's that whole "representation in media" thing that a straight white male like me has had all my life, that non-cis or non-heterosexual people are just starting to get a widespread glimpse of in the last couple of decades. So I think cultural acceptance has certainly helped more people feel comfortable admitting that they're "different" in this generation, yes.

[tshile]

10 minutes ago, bearrock said:

but what's the need to blanket ban all gender affirming treatment?

Being a hateful person. 
 

I still find it incredible my 6 year old can handle supposedly too-mature-for-his-age-conversations by falling back on a simple principal of “people are different, which is cool cause if we were all the same that’s be boring, and we just make sure we’re nice to everyone because that’s the right thing to do”, yet adults fail miserably at it. 
 

You know what he thinks about all of it? “Oh, ok, yeah whatever. Can I go play Roblox now?”

 

Adults are pathetic. 

[tshile]

13 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

That's a ridiculous reason and extremely weak stance to "go along" with a bad policy. We will let children make potentially bad life-altering decision simply because we don't want to agree with Republicans? Yikes. 

I agree with this. Very much. 
 

but also I think it might be a bit more… complicated. 
 

for example - I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re simply seeing an extreme opposite, as a response to a rather large group with an extreme position of just anti-everything not heterosexual or binary gender related. 
 

I wouldn’t be surprised if polling among people moderate/left of center, shows that most people don’t like the idea of kids having extreme medical treatments, but do support counseling, acceptance, accommodations, or other basic “let’s be nice and work with them” style things. 
 

Which is different than saying everyone on the left is accepting the extreme, as a response to the other extreme. 
 

It’s just a symptom of the bigger issue where politics is a sport and people fall into rooting against the other side, often over rooting for something specific. If that makes sense. “I want your idea to fail” winds up replacing “I support this specific idea”, and creates this weird environment. 
 

we’d be much better off if people spent more time just being for what they’re for, and not against what other people are for. It’d be way more productive. 
 

the same way debates on here are more productive when people spend more time discussing what they think, and less time taking shots by making up what their “opponents” think. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

16 minutes ago, tshile said:

Being a hateful person. 
 

I still find it incredible my 6 year old can handle supposedly too-mature-for-his-age-conversations by falling back on a simple principal of “people are different, which is cool cause if we were all the same that’s be boring, and we just make sure we’re nice to everyone because that’s the right thing to do”, yet adults fail miserably at it. 
 

You know what he thinks about all of it? “Oh, ok, yeah whatever. Can I go play Roblox now?”

 

Adults are pathetic. 

 

Eh, I don't know. 

 

It's far too simplistic for people to believe that a Republican holds a viewpoint to "be mean" and that a kid is suddenly more enlightened because he knows it's nice to be kind but then wants to pivot to playing a video game because these things don't impact his life in that moment. And I think you know that. 

 

At least give credit to most of the people who hold these viewpoints. I'm not some angry, mean bigot. I am a generous, kind, selfless person who spends most of my week caring for somebody in my family (parents, sister, wife, stepchildren, children, niece, sister-in-law, mother-in-law, etc.). But, I also think the whole world of gender fluidity and self-identification has gotten out of control and is harmful to this generation of youth. Not because I "hate trannies" or "can't stand libs" or anything that's easy for people to throw at me...but because I think it's a confusing time for children already and this heaps so much more pressure and confusion onto them. Contrary to your opinion that your 6-year old has it all figured out, I still fancy myself slightly more informed than he is. Roblox is pretty cool though. 

[tshile]

@TD_washingtonredskins

right but here’s the thing(s):

As far as I can tell, es is a significantly more mature place than most places and the general public at large. Most people here are, or try to be, thoughtful and respectful. Even though spats happen - they’re mostly blips. We have a handful of people that aren’t like that but that’s it. 
 

I think there’s a HUGE difference between not being OK with the kids and extreme stuff, and being anti-all-of-it. The hateful people are anti-all of it, and use kids as their shield from criticism. “Won’t someone think of the children?!?”  They do it with everything. Gay, trans, marijuana legalization. You name it, if they can use children as their political pawns they absolutely will. And it’s not hard to see it when it’s happening. 
 

There’s a way to have a disagreement and be genuine about it. You know it when you see it. And I don’t think you’re a hateful person at all. Yes you get into it with posters here and there (even me sometimes), but my recollection is you’re almost always respectful about it. 
 

My comments were more about a certain segment of our population.  And being against everything-trans/gay is just one of many topics they show up in. 
 

My response was to the question of why would you be against all of it - even counseling or accommodations. I don’t know how an adult, that isn’t operating on some level of bigotry, could look at kids in those situations and think the best thing to do is to pass legislation making it illegal for licensed professionals to provide help to them. 
 

im… more in your boat than not on thins like surgery, pills, etc. so I’m not gonna come down hard on thst. And even if it turns out you and me are wrong - I do not think that’s based on any sort of hatred of bigotry. I didn’t mean it that way. And maybe I’m the ones that’s confused and it is just about pills and surgery - but it didn’t, and hasn’t, read thst way to me. 
 

these people don’t even want it discussed. 
 

Who in their right mind thinks the best way to deal with a child going through such a mental stress, is to pretend it doesn’t exist? What sort of idiot problem solves that way?

[TradeTheBeal!]

3 things that absolutely are not happening…except in the fevered imaginations and projections of really messed up people.

 

1.  Folks transitioning so they can finish higher in sporting events.

2.  Folks transitioning so they can sneak into bathrooms and locker rooms and assault people.

3.  Evil doctors forcing teens and their families to sign up against their will for lucrative gender transition packages.

[LadySkinsFan]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if polling among people moderate/left of center, shows that most people don’t like the idea of kids having extreme medical treatments, but do support counseling, acceptance, accommodations, or other basic “let’s be nice and work with them” style things. 
 

 

52 minutes ago, tshile said:

@TD_washingtonredskins

 

My response was to the question of why would you be against all of it - even counseling or accommodations. I don’t know how an adult, that isn’t operating on some level of bigotry, could look at kids in those situations and think the best thing to do is to pass legislation making it illegal for licensed professionals to provide help.

 

Who in their right mind thinks the best way to deal with a child going through such a mental stress, is to pretend it doesn’t exist? What sort of idiot problem solves that way?

 

I consider hormones, puberty blockers, and surgeries as child abuse.  I consider bona fide mental health services as necessary to help children through these times, and when older to really detail what can go wrong with gender treatments of all kinds. Most think these things will magically make everything okay and still have the mental issues that weren't fully addressed.

 

Our health system doesn't really support mental health for anyone except for the truly suffering humans. A friend was just diagnosed as bipolar after years of having pills thrown at her or being ignored as "hysterical" and I use that term as a medical term for get out of my office. She's finally found doctors who are treating her properly with the right meds for her physicality and mental state. She's my daughter's best friend from middle school and I've known her for decades. 

 

 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

That's a ridiculous reason and extremely weak stance to "go along" with a bad policy. We will let children make potentially bad life-altering decision simply because we don't want to agree with Republicans? Yikes. 

 

I don't get it...at all. I lean right, but when I agree with Biden, Pelosi, or any of them...I'm OK with that. I don't let that cloud what my moral compass is. 

Call it what you will, but the right has become so repugnant - any time my views align with theirs even if not for the same reasons, I have to question my own views.

 

Considering you lean right - which is pretty obvious btw - just on the subject matters you participate in.  Nothing personal, just an observation.