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The Guardian: Joe Biden's gender discrimination order offers hope for young trans athletes - Discussion Thread

TD_washingtonredskins

By TD_washingtonredskins
in The Tailgate

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TheGreatBuzz

TheGreatBuzz

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said:

 

Oh ffs, if you're not a Lesbian you don't know what you're talking about. Check out Google about self-image trans persons deliberately dressing as women and assaulting women and girls in public restrooms. Start with Target and right down in Woodbridge.

 

Is this going to be another Federalist thing?  Or are you just telling us to "dO YoUr oWn ReSeArCH"?

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TheGreatBuzz

TheGreatBuzz

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said:

https://m.theepochtimes.com/california-mom-blames-lgbtq-coaching-for-brainwashed-teens-suicide_4355635.html

 

This one is behind a paywall so i cant read it.

 

7 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said:

 

 

https://www.dailywire.com/news/5-times-transgender-men-abused-women-and-children-amanda-prestigiacomo

 

The Daily Wire??  You really need better sources.  Do you really not have an issue parroting far-right propaganda?  Here is a description of your "source".

Questionable due to the promotion of propaganda, conspiracy theories, and numerous failed fact checks.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-daily-wire/

 

7 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said:

 

 

https://patch.com/new-jersey/parsippany/man-lured-sexually-assaulted-kids-morris-county-mall-target

 

 

Did you even read your own source????  This mentions nothing about a trans person.  It is a man touching boys in a mall bathroom.  

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thegreaterbuzzette

thegreaterbuzzette

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 3/24/2022 at 2:47 PM, LadySkinsFan said:

Here's some science: sex is biological, gender is a social construct. No matter how much cosmetic surgery, hormones, and language one takes/changes, one cannot change their sex. It's still definition by one's self-image. 
 

race is biological. Would you like different leagues there too? 

 

On 3/24/2022 at 2:47 PM, LadySkinsFan said:

If transpersons want to compete as transpersons, develop sports categories for transpersons. This premise actually applies to everything in our society, prisons, bathrooms etc. 

The bathrooms argument is ridiculous. You can’t use the same toilet as someone with a penis? 
 

As a self-described feminist, I can’t believe that you are getting wrapped up in this rhetoric. Why aren’t cis men also crying about trans women taking over the boardroom? Oh because clearly cis women can only be inferior in sports. We can only be victims. 

 

 

On 3/24/2022 at 2:47 PM, LadySkinsFan said:

I believe in treating everyone decently and with respect. I don't buy into the fiction that people can change sex.


who is changing sex? Literally no one has said folks are changing sex. The only people that think being trans is the same as changing sex are uneducated morons. 

 

 

On 3/24/2022 at 2:47 PM, LadySkinsFan said:

I certainly don't advocate for cosmetic surgery and hormones for children even before they are of legal age. If children don't have the maturity vote or sign contracts, how can they determine surgeries/hormones that last for their lifetime?

So you waited to choose to be a lesbian at 18? Before that you were straight? It was only when you could legally vote that you decided being straight wasn’t your thing and deliberately swapped teams so you could get all the advantages that come with being a lesbian?

 

 

On 3/24/2022 at 2:47 PM, LadySkinsFan said:

 

At 70, I look back and can't imagine what this would have been like. I was a tomboy and in youth probably would have been targeted for transition to pseudo male. All without knowing what testosterone would do to my body long term. 

this is just the most ignorant statement I believe I’ve ever read. Even worse than Fox News comments section. You, as a lesbian, equate “Tom boy” with being trans? What the absolute f*** is this?

 

 

On 3/24/2022 at 2:47 PM, LadySkinsFan said:

 

Please think hard about the medical industrial complex that is pushing this on vulnerable people FOR PROFIT, without concern for persons' long-term bodily harm and mental harm. All we hear about is the positive stories, not the horror stories of detransitioners. 

you should be ashamed of yourself. 
 

 

On 3/24/2022 at 9:45 PM, LadySkinsFan said:

 

Basically, masculine and feminine characteristics are determined by patriarchal institutions down through the centuries sometimes changing. It's becoming more apparent lately that right wing ideologues are determining stricter characteristics for females what with abortion and birth control restrictions, keeping women out of high level career positions and so on. We're headed back to the 40s, 50s, and 60s in short order. This is very concerning to me and other feminists. We females are losing our freedom and rights.

 

Human rights are human rights. Being anti-trans is not in any way helpful to womens rights on our bodies. 

 

in fact it has the opposite effect.  

 

On 3/24/2022 at 9:45 PM, LadySkinsFan said:

 

Even here in this forum, I see men use female body parts to call men in a demeaning way. It happens so often, especially in The Stadium, that I have to ignore it because to call out every instance I would do it all day. Without much resolution. 

Don’t be such a dick. Grow some balls. (See what I did there?) 

 

 

On 3/24/2022 at 9:45 PM, LadySkinsFan said:

When I was a teen, I was attracted to girls, so for a while I wanted to be a boy so I could have girlfriends. Thankfully I grew out of that thought because I didn't want to be a boy.
 

because you are not trans. What you described is not being trans. Wishing you were a boy because it would make it more social acceptable to like females is NOT the same as knowing in your being, you are male. 

 

On 3/24/2022 at 9:45 PM, LadySkinsFan said:

Teen girls with autism are the current target of these medical industrial complex people because they are easily manipulated and exploited. Teen girls are often very upset when they go through puberty with their changing bodies and unwanted sexual attention because of it. It's easier to pretend they're male to avoid unwanted attention, and these women become detransition candidates after their voices are permanently changed by testosterone and they've removed their breasts and maybe had a hysterectomy. I speak of females because those are the people I am most familiar with.

where TF are you getting this crap? 

 

On 3/25/2022 at 1:00 AM, mojo said:

I see it everyday at my daughter’s middle school. Sexuality has become a status symbol. Being “queer “ is cool and genders change by the day. These kids are 11-13 yrs old and I realize a lot of it is rhetoric but I’m sure there are many that are acting on it. Personally, I think that can have repercussions later.


the world is no more “gay” than it was previously. It is now more acceptable to say it out loud and live it. Read the Bible, look at historic art. Men have happily laid with men since the start of time. 

 

 

23 hours ago, The Evil Genius said:

Considering that at least 1 to 2 (most likely more) of the girls on that team in question are gay, should they have been forced to change separately as well? 

 

I know the answer...but it seems that some have accepted 1 and not the other. 

 

 

society needs to answer the question -

do we have separate (restrooms, locker rooms, living quarters) because we LOOK different or because we are ATTRACTED to different?

 

22 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said:

 

The Lesbians I know don't go around with a penis, so you don't hear about Lesbians assaulting women in bathrooms and lockerrooms. They're women. Woman: adult human female.

do you hear yourself? It now takes a penis to assault someone? Ask me how many times I’ve been in uncomfortable situations with an aggressive lesbian vs a trans women. You won’t like the answer. 

 

 

22 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said:

 

Because biological women can't compete with biological men. 

 

Why not have trans sports categories when anyone who identifies as trans can compete whether they are biological men or women? 


So hypogonadist men should not be able to play sports either? Or PCOS females? Phelps should be forced to give up his Medals because of his biological conditions?

 

 

22 hours ago, tshile said:

im not comfortable speaking for women on the issue with a trans woman, except to say that if they had a problem with it I would defend them on the issue. If they didn’t care, then I don’t care. 
 

i certainly wouldn’t want it in my daughters locker room, so long as she’s not an adult. Once she’s an adult then - I’ll defer to her. 


I personally do not think communal locker rooms belong in k-12 period. That solves it all. With puberty and just childhood nerves….changing/showering in a group solves nothing. 

 

 

22 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said:

 

Oh ffs, if you're not a Lesbian you don't know what you're talking about. Check out Google about self-image trans persons deliberately dressing as women and assaulting women and girls in public restrooms. Start with Target and right down in Woodbridge.

Hi. 🙋🏼‍♀️ Little reminder, you don’t speak for everyone. And that’s all I’ll say on that matter. 
 

you are the pure definition of interminority hatred. I really can’t believe the crap I just read. 

Edited by thegreaterbuzzette
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The Evil Genius

The Evil Genius

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Are you able to share any of the points being made? I can't get to the article behind the pay wall...the comments (both Twitter and on the Independent itself) don't make it seem like a very compelling argument though. 

 

I tried to cut and paste but the formatting was fubar. Maybe try opening the link in private/incognito mode? I was able to read it that way again.

 

 

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TD_washingtonredskins

TD_washingtonredskins

Posted
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31 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

I tried to cut and paste but the formatting was fubar. Maybe try opening the link in private/incognito mode? I was able to read it that way again.

 

 

Thanks...that wasn't overly compelling to me. It felt a lot more like "here's my opinion and some anecdotal facts to try to back it up" rather than "statistics are rolling in" 

 

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The Evil Genius

The Evil Genius

Posted
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Thanks...that wasn't overly compelling to me. It felt a lot more like "here's my opinion and some anecdotal facts to try to back it up" rather than "statistics are rolling in" 

 

 

I suspect compelling data will be hard to get until more datasets become available. Right now, this is really the beginning of it. 

 

I did find it interesting that Lia was an elite longer distance swimmer before she transitioned and now she has become a more focused short distance swimmer. 

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bearrock

bearrock

Posted
Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Are you able to share any of the points being made? I can't get to the article behind the pay wall...the comments (both Twitter and on the Independent itself) don't make it seem like a very compelling argument though. 

 

The incognito trick worked for me too.  Highlights:

 

- Central claim against Lia Thomas is that she gained advantage during pre-transition years as a male that is not erased by transition hormone treatment

 

- While article is facially neutral on that proposition (leaning toward skeptical at least imo), article's position is that the claim is unclear at best and we have very little dataset to evaluate.

 

- in the broader context of women's ncaa swimming competition, Thomas is not dominating the competition. During Thomas' time in the NCAA, 27 women's records were broken,  none of them by Thomas.

 

- In the last six years, Thomas' time in 500yds ranks 8th out of 56 yearly top 8 finishers spread among 7 competitions. 100 yds, 55 out of 56.  200 yds, 31 out of 56.  So she's not dominating the field.

 

- Thomas was a good male swimmer before transition.  She was 554th in 200yds, 65th in 500 yds, 32nd in 1650 yds pre transition.  She no longer competes in long distance post transition.  Her best categories were long distance pre transition.

 

- In her last season in the men's events, she was 9th in 1000 yds, 29th in 1650 yds.  There is no way to tell whether she would or would not have continued to improve without transition (implication that it's difficult if not impossible to say whether her improved standing is due solely to change in competition where pre-transition advantages are not wiped out by transition HRT requirements).

 

- Thomas' post-HRT time is 5.6% slower in 500 yds, 7.5% slower in 1000 yds, 7.2% slower in 1650 yds.

 

- NCAA record between men and women differ by 11.2% for 200, 7.2% for 500 yds, and 6% for 1650 yds.

 

- Thomas was about 10s behind male record pre-hrt.  She is about 10s behind female record post-hrt.

 

- She is about the first case of competitive male swimmer transitioning to competitive female swimmer.  It is too unique a case to conclude that advantage of male puberty is not wiped out by hrt transition.  Research so far has been mixed.

 

Those are my highlights 

 

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Thanks...that wasn't overly compelling to me. It felt a lot more like "here's my opinion and some anecdotal facts to try to back it up" rather than "statistics are rolling in" 

 

 

Damn it @TD_washingtonredskins!  All that summarization for nothing!  Unread it!  Unread it from your mind!  🤣

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tshile

tshile

Posted
Posted
50 minutes ago, bearrock said:

in the broader context of women's ncaa swimming competition, Thomas is not dominating the competition. During Thomas' time in the NCAA, 27 women's records were broken,  none of them by Thomas.

This was her first year competing in womens leagues. Last year would have been but ivy leagues suspended play for covid. 

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bearrock

bearrock

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, tshile said:

This was her first year competing in womens leagues. Last year would have been but ivy leagues suspended play for covid. 

 

I may have misread that part and missummerized.  Seems weird that 27 records were broken in one year.  Article may have been discussing a longer period (but I don't think it goes back to the Ledecky days cause the list of record breakers didn't include Ledecky)

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tshile

tshile

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Posted
14 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

I may have misread that part and missummerized.  Seems weird that 27 records were broken in one year.  Article may have been discussing a longer period (but I don't think it goes back to the Ledecky days cause the list of record breakers didn't include Ledecky)

Her wiki says freshman and sophomore year she was mens league. Transitioned in time for junior but Ivy League (Penn) suspended playing for covid. This was her first year in womens. 

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BatteredFanSyndrome

BatteredFanSyndrome

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I just don't think that Thomas not dominating women in every race is proof that she's not gaining a huge physical advantage. 

 

It's all culture wars.  The reason lefties 'don't care' about this and point to things like her not dominating every race as a means to defend her right to swim with females is because that's the position their team has taken.  Nobody wants to be associated with the right, for good reason, and acknowledging that they might be right for the wrong reasons on this particular issue is in bad form.

 

I just feel like there is a world that exists between right wing 'she's a man' memes that shame the trans community and the left's constant obsession with catering to everyone not under the GOP tent, even if it doesn't make logical sense.

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bearrock

bearrock

Posted
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1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It's all culture wars.  The reason lefties 'don't care' about this and point to things like her not dominating every race as a means to defend her right to swim with females is because that's the position their team has taken.  Nobody wants to be associated with the right, for good reason, and acknowledging that they might be right for the wrong reasons on this particular issue is in bad form.

 

I just feel like there is a world that exists between right wing 'she's a man' memes that shame the trans community and the left's constant obsession with catering to everyone not under the GOP tent, even if it doesn't make logical sense.

 

I'm a big lefty, but I would like the issue to center around fair competition (a position that I think many share).  Seems to me, the central question is whether the required HRT is enough to roll back the natural advantage gained over pre-HRT puberty.  I thought the answer was no based on some of the stuff I've read in the past.  The Independent article seems to be indicating (arguing?) that the answer is uncertain.  We may need more data points to find out.

 

1 hour ago, tshile said:

Her wiki says freshman and sophomore year she was mens league. Transitioned in time for junior but Ivy League (Penn) suspended playing for covid. This was her first year in womens. 

 

Yeah, got that part.  Was just saying that I don't know if the 27 records were broken in that one year or some other period was used (I thought one year was unlikely because there's apparently a UVA female swimmer who broke the record like 18 times.  But maybe that's all in one year?).

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BatteredFanSyndrome

BatteredFanSyndrome

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, bearrock said:

I'm a big lefty, but I would like the issue to center around fair competition (a position that I think many share).  Seems to me, the central question is whether the required HRT is enough to roll back the natural advantage gained over pre-HRT puberty.  I thought the answer was no based on some of the stuff I've read in the past.  The Independent article seems to be indicating (arguing?) that the answer is uncertain.  We may need more data points to find out.

But I guess that's the point, the answers are uncertain so why we decisions being made as if they are certain?

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