The Guardian: Joe Biden's gender discrimination order offers hope for young trans athletes - Discussion Thread

[tshile]

22 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

Should I also be mad that my mythical white as snow kid is only 5'10" and loses out to the darker skinned non- pituitary challenged 6'8" kid on the court? 😁

Are those really the same thing?

 

also - loving this “I don’t have kids so I don’t care about the issue” stances some of you are taking. 
 

I mean I’m a white male on the upper ends of the socioeconomic range. I could easily decide to not care about a ton of ****. 
 

but that’d make me a pretty big asshole. 

[The Evil Genius]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

Sports are inherently unfair. 

 

End thread. 

 

1 minute ago, tshile said:

Are those really the same thing?

 

also - loving this “I don’t have kids so I don’t care about the issue” stances some of you are taking. 
 

I mean I’m a white male on the upper ends of the socioeconomic range. I could easily decide to not care about a ton of ****. 
 

but that’d make me a pretty big asshole. 

 

Make? 😁

 

Fwiw I am saying the Lia Thomas's of the sports world are rare and a Trans league isn't feasible in college sports, especially when women's sports aren't monetarily good for colleges. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by The Evil Genius

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

1 minute ago, LadySkinsFan said:

 

Because biological women can't compete with biological men. 

 

Why not have trans sports categories when anyone who identifies as trans can compete whether they are biological men or women? 

That’s technically not true. Depends on the person and the sport.

 

There is so much variability in athletic performance between individual men and individual women it’s ridiculous. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

22 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

Should I also be mad that my mythical white as snow kid is only 5'10" and loses out to the darker skinned non- pituitary challenged 6'8" kid on the court? 😁

 

I don't understand this comparison unless you're just being a smartass. 

 

Look, if they eventually decide that all Olympics and NCAA sports will be coed, then that's a completely different story. Most of my complaints will go away. I think it'll be horribly unfair, but within that set of rules, nobody will be doing anything wrong. However, if you're going to classify sports into men's and women's categories then actually divide sports into men's and women's categories based on something more tangible than the individual's "identification" 

 

In your analogy, if there was an "Under 6-foot basketball league" that your kid had entered and my 6'8" kid identified as 5'11" and was allowed to join...wouldn't you be pretty pissed? 

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Just now, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

Sports are inherently unfair. 

If I transitioned I still wouldn’t be able win a world record in 100 meter dash against other women. Or be able to compete in the wnba. I think it’s a complicated issue and I think a trans league would be one way to appease those concerns. But I don’t think there is any easy answer. 

 

That's because your ankles are ****ing broken.

 

But if you're Cooper Kupp and go play in the Lingerie Football League because now you're Kooper Kuppz, there's a ****ing problem.

 

Especially if you're Jon Jones beating women.

 

Oh wait...

[TD_washingtonredskins]

5 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

So if it's just a penis thing...post assignment surgery, it's not a problem in the locker room? 

 

As far as I'm concerned as it relates to sharing the locker room, yes. But I'm a dude and I have never seen what it all looks like down there after surgery. Based on what I'm assuming though, I can't imagine there's be any objections after surgery. 

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

3 minutes ago, d0ublestr0ker0ll said:

 

That's because your ankles are ****ing broken.

 

But if you're Cooper Kupp and go play in the Lingerie Football League because now you're Kooper Kuppz, there's a ****ing problem.

 

Especially if you're Jon Jones beating women.

 

Oh wait...

why would copper kupp go from making millions of dollars to like 1/20 of what the lingerie football league does. 

[tshile]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

I think it’s a complicated issue and I think a trans league would be one way to appease those concerns

If trans people wanted this, then I would defer to them. 
 

but, I don’t see how it would be successful. First off they’re an incredibly small portion of society, so good luck fielding any real competitive sport out of that. But also sports run on money, and I doubt that would be a successful type of league. 
 

but also part of the issue is youth leagues. And I don’t think putting them in their own league really reflects the problem that’s trying to be solved - where they don’t feel like they’re respected, accepted, by or part of normal society. 
 

But if that was the solution trans people wanted, then who am into say no. 

[The Evil Genius]

8 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I don't understand this comparison unless you're just being a smartass. 

 

Look, if they eventually decide that all Olympics and NCAA sports will be coed, then that's a completely different story. Most of my complaints will go away. I think it'll be horribly unfair, but within that set of rules, nobody will be doing anything wrong. However, if you're going to classify sports into men's and women's categories then actually divide sports into men's and women's categories based on something more tangible than the individual's "identification" 

 

In your analogy, if there was an "Under 6-foot basketball league" that your kid had entered and my 6'8" kid identified as 5'11" and was allowed to join...wouldn't you be pretty pissed? 

 

Of course I'm a smartass. I also think this issue is overblown by some here. 

 

Edit..I also generally choose the side of acceptance and compassion. As stated, I have no kids. But if hope they'd welcome all competition if they played sports.

Edited March 25, 2022 by The Evil Genius

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Just now, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

why would copper kupp go from making millions of dollars to like 1/20 of what the lingerie football league does. 

 

You're diverting from the point.

 

Hypothetically, if there as much money in Lingerie Football...and Cooper said he's now a woman...is that OK?

 

How about Sean Taylor in his prime, wrecking Becky on a crossing route?

[Renegade7]

I'm starting to see a couple slippery slope hypotheticals in this thread in the shadow of how small the MTF athlete population actually is...the problem may have a growing visibility, but are there actual numbers as a growing problem?  I see a lot of talk of what people could do versus what they actually are doing...

Edited March 25, 2022 by Renegade7

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

Of course I'm a smartass. I also think this issue is overblown by some here. 

Clearly you do, but it's a real issue even if it isn't impacting thousands of athletes. And, I'd assume it's going to become more common so it's not a bad thing to proactively discuss rather than wait for more and more resentment or issues to bubble up. 

[tshile]

10 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

So if it's just a penis thing...post assignment surgery, it's not a problem in the locker room? 

As a man I wouldn’t care if a trans man was in my locker room. Post assignment surgery doesn’t matter to me. 
 

im not comfortable speaking for women on the issue with a trans woman, except to say that if they had a problem with it I would defend them on the issue. If they didn’t care, then I don’t care. 
 

i certainly wouldn’t want it in my daughters locker room, so long as she’s not an adult. Once she’s an adult then - I’ll defer to her. 

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I'm starting to see a couple slippery slope hypotheticals in this thread in the shadow of how small the MTF athlete population actually is...the problem may have a growing visibility, but are there actual mumbers as a growing problem?  I see a lot of talk of what people could do versus what they actually are doing...

 

Fallon Fox beating the **** out of a woman in a sanctioned MMA bout is not a hypothetical.

[LadySkinsFan]

14 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

Of ffs. I'm sure it happens with more frequency than a Trans person assaulting someone in a locker room. 

 

Oh ffs, if you're not a Lesbian you don't know what you're talking about. Check out Google about self-image trans persons deliberately dressing as women and assaulting women and girls in public restrooms. Start with Target and right down in Woodbridge.

[tshile]

12 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

Make? 😁

 

Fwiw I am saying the Lia Thomas's of the sports world are rare and a Trans league isn't feasible in college sports, especially when women's sports aren't monetarily good for colleges. 

That’s fine. But it’s a sentiment you’ve seen quite a bit around here. This idea that because someone doesn’t have a daughter, they don’t care that there are people with daughters that are impacted by this. 
 

i can easily subscribe to that logic as well as say I don’t (yet) have a trans kid, so I don’t give a **** about trans people, don’t let them play any sports. 

or that i don’t need financial assistance so dump all forms of government financial assistance, and cut my taxes. 
 

etc 

 

but yeah, only a huge asshole thinks that way about important issues. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

4 minutes ago, tshile said:

If trans people wanted this, then I would defer to them. 
 

but, I don’t see how it would be successful. First off they’re an incredibly small portion of society, so good luck fielding any real competitive sport out of that. But also sports run on money, and I doubt that would be a successful type of league. 
 

but also part of the issue is youth leagues. And I don’t think putting them in their own league really reflects the problem that’s trying to be solved - where they don’t feel like they’re respected, accepted, by or part of normal society. 
 

But if that was the solution trans people wanted, then who am into say no. 

 

I don't think you're fully grasping the problem that's trying to be solved...you have half of it. Trans athletes need to feel respected by normal society while still not being put in a position of advantage of non-trans athletes. To me, THAT'S the problem statement. 

[tshile]

14 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

39 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

 

I don't understand this comparison unless you're just being a smartass. 

Exactly. 
 

we don’t break leagues down by height or other characteristics. 
 

we do by gender

 

The god damned rules are different in many sports, for the two genders. 
 

it’s amazing how people fail to grasp this incredibly simple and obvious fact

[Renegade7]

3 minutes ago, d0ublestr0ker0ll said:

 

Fallon Fox beating the **** out of a woman in a sanctioned MMA bout is not a hypothetical.

 

But Cooper Kupp making as much money in the lengiere bowl as the NFL does and makes this conversation more difficult then it needs to be or already is.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Just now, Renegade7 said:

 

But Cooper Kupp making as much money in the lengiere bowl as the NFL does and makes this conversation more difficult then it needs to be or already is.

 

What?

 

Answer the question.

 

Is it cool for him to play in that league, if he now identified as a woman?

 

Yes or no.

[tshile]

5 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I don't think you're fully grasping the problem that's trying to be solved...you have half of it. Trans athletes need to feel respected by normal society while still not being put in a position of advantage of non-trans athletes. To me, THAT'S the problem statement. 

Um. I fully understand that and if you actually go read what I wrote throughout the thread, I’m in agreement with you (mostly)

 

My reference to the “problem trying to be solved” is that we have a group of people (trans) that are *significantly* more likely to kill themselves. More likely to fall into drug addiction and various other awful lifestyle things. Them being shunned from society is a major part of it. 
 

what’s going on with athletes, is society is attempting to grapple with this issue and do something about it. And as usually we will be wrong quite a bit before we get it right. There will need to be changes, and when we see they aren’t quite working the way we want, more changes. It’ll take time. That’s the way social progress works. We’re in the earlier stages of it. 
 

there’s a hell of a bigger picture here than what your problem statement hits on. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by tshile

[TD_washingtonredskins]

11 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

Of course I'm a smartass. I also think this issue is overblown by some here. 

 

Edit..I also generally choose the side of acceptance and compassion. As stated, I have no kids. But if hope they'd welcome all competition if they played sports.

 

I don't think anywhere I've advocated for exclusion or heartlessness, but rather finding the best solution for everyone to participate in sports fairly. What I'd like someone to explain to me is how big a deal it would be a MTF to continue competing in male sports? I'm not asking that in a petulant way...I'm asking it legitimately. Is that a gigantic psychological issue for someone going through this transition? 

[Renegade7]

1 minute ago, d0ublestr0ker0ll said:

 

What?

 

Answer the question.

 

Is it cool for him to play in that league, if he now identified as a woman?

 

Yes or no.

 

This is like asking if LeBron should be already to play in the WNBA, they aren't going to, so who cares?

 

This MTF athlete thing is rare, most in here, including me, disagree with allowing them to play in female sports, for different reasons, while acknowledginghow hard it is to decide what is actually fair.

 

But my point coming back into this thread is keeping the actual scope of this issue in context versus blowing it up into something bigger then it already is with ridiculous hypotheticals.

[tshile]

5 minutes ago, d0ublestr0ker0ll said:

 

Is it cool for him to play in that league, if he now identified as a woman?

 

Yes or no.

It’s not fair to demand a simple yes or no on that question.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

3 minutes ago, tshile said:

Um. I fully understand that and if you actually go read what I wrote throughout the thread, I’m in agreement with you (mostly)

 

My reference to the “problem trying to be solved” is that we have a group of people (trans) that are *significantly* more likely to kill themselves. More likely to fall into drug addiction and various other awful lifestyle things. Them being shunned from society is a major part of it. 
 

what’s going on with athletes, is society is attempting to grapple with this issue and do something about it. And as usually we will be wrong quite a bit before we get it right. There will need to be changes, and when we see they aren’t quite working the way we want, more changes. It’ll take time. That’s the way social progress works. We’re in the earlier stages of it. 
 

there’s a hell of a bigger picture here than what your problem statement hits on. 

No I understand what side of this you've been on. I guess I just amended what you wrote because I think in many cases we (not you) tend to focus on resolving a singular aspect of the problem without always considering the ramifications. 

 

For example (and this is all hypothetical because I don't know Lia Thomas), let Lia swim for Penn Women and let her change in the locker room with the other girls because she's "significantly more likely to be suicidal" than some of the other girls. Do we know what downstream impact that's had to some of the other girls who have become footnotes in Lia's journey during what they may have assumed would be the pinnacle of their swimming careers? They likely all started when they were 5 or 6 and at some point swam year-round, were local stars, celebrated, etc. And now they are somewhat swept to the side as guest stars in the Lia Show because we have started catering to Lia's desire to be a girl on the women's swim team. 

 

I'm not trying to be an asshole but just point out why I think it's important that everyone keep all of society in focus as we aim to be inclusive of the evolution of "normal"