The Guardian: Joe Biden's gender discrimination order offers hope for young trans athletes - Discussion Thread

[TD_washingtonredskins]

In order to pull the discussion out of the policy thread, I wanted to get the ball rolling on Biden's recent EO concerning trans athletes:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jan/22/transgender-athletes-joe-biden-executive-order

 

Order delivers incremental win for athletes seeking to participate as their identified gender in high school and college sports

[bearrock]

Chiming in on the discussion from the Biden/Harris policy thread (I initially tried to post my thoughts on @goskins10 new thread that got locked, so coming here)

 

I think the transgender debate is a particularly difficult one in the sense that the people may share certain views on the debate for myriads of different reasons.  I myself don't know exactly where I come out on this particular debate (whether to differentiate born females and MTF trans individuals), other than I think it's a more complex issue than we are sometimes willing to acknowledge (not discounting the fact that some people will fall on certain viewpoints due to pure and simple bigotry).

 

I do think the perspective of females who have been born as a female and lived their entire life as a female and objecting to the notion of recognizing MTF trans individual being recognized as a same female are too easily dismissed as bigotry.  I think the fault mainly falls on society that too easily groups all hardship and plight based on immutable characteristics as same or substantially similar.  It's not that trans individuals do not suffer immense hardships, discrimination, and harm.  But I can appreciate the perspective of those who say it is not the same as that of a person who has lived their entire life as female (without even having to go to the physiological differences that is relevant in the athletics context).  Not as any easier or harder, but substantively different.  Blacks suffer certain prejudices and harm that are not shared by other victims of immutable characteristic discrimination.  Same with females.  Gays, lesbians, trans, etc.  Discrimination comes in many forms, shapes, and experiences and it's probably fool's gold to try to compare and weigh which group suffers more.  But I can appreciate how one group may object to their historical and life experience being lumped in with another with a wholly different life experience.

 

At the end of the day, I don't know that it results in a meaningfully different outcome in terms of policy.  There may be difference in life experience between a born female and MTF trans individual, but is it even possible to somehow reflect that difference in policy without engaging in further discrimination and diminishment of the suffering of a trans indvidual?  

 

On the other hand, if Blacks said we support a policy of non-discrimination of individuals based on immutable characteristics, but we would only support slavery reparations for descendants of slaves or at least blacks, I doubt many would feel that's bigotry.  I think I can see enough shades of similarity between such a position and those who say living your entire life as a female results in a materially different life experience to at least give me pause.  

Edited January 23, 2021 by bearrock

[LadySkinsFan]

I want to post this entry of mine from the other thread because I don't want these links to get lost. Hopefully, some of you will read and watch to get female point of view of what's happening in the trans world. I especially invite you to watch the Transhumanism and Autogynephilia video. It's about an hour and filled with facts. Transhumanism is really troubling. As is the transing of children, that's for another day.

 

  On 1/21/2021 at 4:14 PM, The Evil Genius said:

My apologies then. I have never heard terf being labeled a slur.

 

Acronym yes, slur no. Edit..does this mean homophobe is a slur too? 

 

I'd be curious if you (and really anyone else) have the same position on females who want to/or do transition male. 

 

I'll answer your last comment first. I find it sad that rich males mostly got on the trans train when in the early 80s it was mostly males who had hormones and surgery to render them transsexual. Below is an article by Jennifer Bilek writing about the billionaires behind the trans movement. 

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2020/01/the-billionaires-behind-the-lgbt-movement

 

Here's a blog about how the trans movement, lots of articles here.

 

https://www.the11thhourblog.com

 

Here's a link to a video of Jennifer explaining transhumanism and autogynephilia, which is a sexual fetish of men imagining themselves as women to get off.  It's a long video because it's a very involved conversation with her and an interviewer discussing this topic, which is eye opening. 

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9kQ_o0G7D38&feature=share

 

Homophobe is used to vilify same sex attraction. For example, if a woman or man who is same sex oriented turns down a trans person of the opposite sex, the homosexual is labeled a homophobe even though they aren't opposite sex oriented. Which is just ridiculous.

 

Thank you for your apologies. We don't call ourselves TERF, which is a slur for Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist, basically because we don't want to have sex with born males who likely still have their male sex organs. That's not same sex oriented. So we got labeled something that's crept into our language to the point that you didn't know the history of the usage of that term. 

 

[bearrock]

Do we even need to get into the weeds to resolve a homosexual person personally turning down a relationship with a trans individual?  Regardless of where we fall on the born female/MTF trans debate, accepting or turning down an overture is a matter of personal decision.  That's not an issue of bigotry, it's an issue of attraction.  It would be the same as calling a heterosexual man a homophobe because they are not attracted to a homosexual man.

[kfrankie]

So hypothetically, if a pretty good male HS basketball player wanted to get a free education, he could falsely identify as a female and refuse to have the surgery as well (it's not a requirement to identify with the opposite gender).  Then he could say that although he identifies as a female, he is actually a lesbian as well (gender and sexuality are not linked) so he would still date and have sex with women. Also, he could continue to dress like a male because that type of thing is nothing more than a social construct anyway (give a boy a truck, he'll play with trucks, give him a doll and he'll play with dolls). So really you would have a dude dunking over women, then showering up with his female teammates after the game, throwing on a pair of jeans and a flannel shirt, and then going home for a romp with his girlfriend.

 

Sounds like an Adan Sandler movie.

Edited January 23, 2021 by kfrankie

[Fergasun]

I think there are tons of silly little hypotheticals,  and tons of hypothetical controversies, but very little real controversies on this subject. 

 

Society still struggles to accept even lesbian and gay people -- that getting into trans... it's an area we need to give respect and deference that people are sincere about the things they say are sincere about.  

[skinny21]

17 hours ago, kfrankie said:

So hypothetically, if a pretty good male HS basketball player wanted to get a free education, he could falsely identify as a female and refuse to have the surgery as well (it's not a requirement to identify with the opposite gender).  Then he could say that although he identifies as a female, he is actually a lesbian as well (gender and sexuality are not linked) so he would still date and have sex with women. Also, he could continue to dress like a male because that type of thing is nothing more than a social construct anyway (give a boy a truck, he'll play with trucks, give him a doll and he'll play with dolls). So really you would have a dude dunking over women, then showering up with his female teammates after the game, throwing on a pair of jeans and a flannel shirt, and then going home for a romp with his girlfriend.

 

Sounds like an Adan Sandler movie.

If governing sports bodies decide so, then yes, this could happen.  I imagine this is going to be addressed quickly as schools and athletes look to gain an edge (even though I have my doubts it becomes prevalent - and I’m not just referring to pretending to be trans).  

Of course they’d need to navigate their friends, family and acquaintances/classmates treating them as a trans person.  I find that most young men care what people think about them, so it would be an interesting case.

 

As to the EO, I don’t see it really having anything to do with this hypothetical, but I’m open to changing my mind...

 

As I said in the other thread, does ‘sports equity’ outweigh an attempt to reduce the negative treatment of a segment of the population?  I don’t think so, but again, open to argument.  And again, this feels a lot like the pretty bogus ‘welfare queens’ concern/argument.  Loopholes (real or otherwise) shouldn’t dictate the treatment of the (vast) majority of the relevant population.  Or maybe we should eliminate taxes because of the loopholes, lol.

[Recovering_Spaz]

51 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

If governing sports bodies decide so, then yes, this could happen.  I imagine this is going to be addressed quickly as schools and athletes look to gain an edge (even though I have my doubts it becomes prevalent - and I’m not just referring to pretending to be trans).  

Of course they’d need to navigate their friends, family and acquaintances/classmates treating them as a trans person.  I find that most young men care what people think about them, so it would be an interesting case.

 

As to the EO, I don’t see it really having anything to do with this hypothetical, but I’m open to changing my mind...

 

As I said in the other thread, does ‘sports equity’ outweigh an attempt to reduce the negative treatment of a segment of the population?  I don’t think so, but again, open to argument.  And again, this feels a lot like the pretty bogus ‘welfare queens’ concern/argument.  Loopholes (real or otherwise) shouldn’t dictate the treatment of the (vast) majority of the relevant population.  Or maybe we should eliminate taxes because of the loopholes, lol.

 

An amateur athlete faking being trans to play against the opposite sex would be a thorny problem, but most likely a rare one for the exact reason you mention.

 

Introduce money into the equation (pro sports) and we're much more likely to see this. 

 

I'm going to side step picking either reasonable side (*) on this topic as I find both arguments compelling. I look forward to future posts so that I might learn more. 

 

* Needless to say, a bigot's view point is not reasonable, not that I've seen that expressed in this thread.

 

 

 

[CjSuAvE22]

This only affects womens sports let women cast votes throughout the country if they should allow mtf trans people

into their leagues that havent undergone treatment physically or mentally....let the votes happen and be done with it

And no us men have no say in this sorry...lifes tough

Edited January 24, 2021 by CjSuAvE22

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

To me, MTF in sports shouldn't be allowed.  It's unfortunate, I feel bad for those who transition who want to play sports.  I assume there aren't enough athletes that are MTF to have their own leagues (yet).  Perhaps I'm wrong? That would be great.

 

Even if a boy gets all the treatment at a young age, say 15 even, think about the Mike Tysons of the world.  That dude was built like a mega fortress by that age.  You can't get rid of that bone structure, and the former effects of testosterone and testosterone-driven workouts.  Think about Shaq transitioning at 18.  Ray Lewis transitioning at 22.  Usain Bolt transitioning whenever.  Records are getting demolished, and people are getting hurt.

 

Combat sports is my biggest concern.

[Simmsy]

31 minutes ago, d0ublestr0ker0ll said:

To me, MTF in sports shouldn't be allowed.  It's unfortunate, I feel bad for those who transition who want to play sports.  I assume there aren't enough athletes that are MTF to have their own leagues (yet).  Perhaps I'm wrong? That would be great.

 

Even if a boy gets all the treatment at a young age, say 15 even, think about the Mike Tysons of the world.  That dude was built like a mega fortress by that age.  You can't get rid of that bone structure, and the former effects of testosterone and testosterone-driven workouts.  Think about Shaq transitioning at 18.  Ray Lewis transitioning at 22.  Usain Bolt transitioning whenever.  Records are getting demolished, and people are getting hurt.

 

Combat sports is my biggest concern.

I was going to say something, but you got it right on the money. You may be a woman now, but you were born, went through puberty and grew as a male. You can't undo that, so what do we do? Do we set a time frame where someone would have to take hormone therapy? This is going to be a mess, that even as far left leaning as I am, don't even know how to go about this one...and don't really want to get involved in.

[LadySkinsFan]

Hormones don't change DNA, they may change secondary physical characteristics.

[Spaceman Spiff]

16 hours ago, d0ublestr0ker0ll said:

To me, MTF in sports shouldn't be allowed.  It's unfortunate, I feel bad for those who transition who want to play sports.  I assume there aren't enough athletes that are MTF to have their own leagues (yet).  Perhaps I'm wrong? That would be great.

 

Even if a boy gets all the treatment at a young age, say 15 even, think about the Mike Tysons of the world.  That dude was built like a mega fortress by that age.  You can't get rid of that bone structure, and the former effects of testosterone and testosterone-driven workouts.  Think about Shaq transitioning at 18.  Ray Lewis transitioning at 22.  Usain Bolt transitioning whenever.  Records are getting demolished, and people are getting hurt.

 

Combat sports is my biggest concern.

 

Your first paragraph touches on the biggest part of the issue here, IMO...is that there's no easy answer.  And even if they have their own league, it still might be viewed as some as exclusionary because they wouldn't be able to compete at the Olympics or in a pro women's sports league like the WNBA.  Even though their own league would be the best thing to have things on the level as much as they could possibly be, anyone who competes probably to go against the best, and so even their own league wouldn't be as viewed as good or as viable as the WNBA and whatever Olympics they could make for themselves aren't as prestigious as the real thing.

 

Nobody wants to be called a bigot, no one wants to exclude anyone from doing what they want to do, and in this particular case I don't think anyone wants to be an asshole about it.  People want their sports on the level and MTF athletes are not on the level.  

Edited January 24, 2021 by Spaceman Spiff

[Corcaigh]

There are multiple 'governing bodies' in play here too.

 

There is Federal law. And Biden's EO however it will be interpreted has to sit alongside Title IX which currently favors female-born athletes NOT being denied opportunities that MTF athletes would clearly represent in the few cases which will get all the attention. And at the public high school level there will be state policy (VHSL for Virginia), which is influenced but not controlled by national (NFHS). And at the college level you have NCAA. Then at the club level you typically have the National Governing Bodies (USATF for track & field), plus other organizations such as AUA with their own competitions. The odds of all these having identical policies is pretty much zero. Starting in 2019 IAAF (international governing body for track and field) requires intersex athletes (such as Caster Semenya) to take medication to lower their testosterone level if they want to compete in female events.

 

I posted it in the other thread, but this long article is well worth a read for those interested in the current state of the sports science and arguments on both sides: https://sportsscientists.com/2019/03/on-transgender-athletes-and-performance-advantages/

 

Another article I posted by a trans 'activist' recognizes that each sport likely needs to treat MTF athletes differently. An adult who was been through an extended period of hormone therapy and maintains their testosterone level within a certain band may not have a competitive advantage is sports such as distance running. But in sports where size, power and contact is a significant element lowering T won't be enough.

 

I have not seen anyone seriously making the case that self-identification is sufficient to allow MTF athletes to compete. And no-one is suggesting that teenage MTF athletes should be going through hormone therapy or surgery to physically transition.

 

For youth sports, I think the best option is for athletes to compete according to their birth sex, assuming there is not a MTF athlete league. Once they become an adult then there could be all sorts of rules and therapies in play that might make some sports equitable with MTF athletes.

[Mooka]

IMO high school and college ate amateur sports.

 

So whatever or who cares. (regardless of the implications and the amount of people who will care)

 

But I wouldn't allow it in a professional sports. 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

I don’t really care one way or the other. I think it would be unfair for a woman to go up against a weekend trans....

[TD_washingtonredskins]

18 hours ago, Mooka said:

IMO high school and college ate amateur sports.

 

So whatever or who cares. (regardless of the implications and the amount of people who will care)

 

But I wouldn't allow it in a professional sports. 

 

I think amateur is just as important. It's not a money thing to me, it's a fairness thing. Unless we're willing to make all amateur sports co-ed, then I think you have to draw the line with biological gender. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

18 hours ago, Mooka said:

IMO high school and college ate amateur sports.

Amateur sports that are used to elevate athletes to non-amateur levels.

 

I gather most folks that see it like the above don't happen to be 'girl' dads.

 

 

[TheGreatBuzz]

I haven't said anything in this thread yet not because I don't have anything to say but I just think there really is no "fair" answer.  I've been thinking about it a lot lately though and I think I come down on the side of not allowing people to play physical sports outside of their biological gender.  I get that really isn't fair to them.  But how fair is it to the other competitors to have a genetic male competing against genetic females (in sports where that matters)?  When you are in a situation where one group is going to get "screwed over", I side on trying to be more fair towards the majority.

 

I know I'm going to get killed for this analogy but I think it is a reasonable comparison even though it sounds bad.  There are many people who can't compete in a sport they would like, often because of some form of handicap.  Is it "fair" to that person?  Not really but that is a part of life.  I'm 5'6".  No matter how much I want it or how much time I put in practicing, I'm probably never going to have a successful basketball career partly because of my genetics.  But life goes on and you learn to live with it.  That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

[Spaceman Spiff]

1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I haven't said anything in this thread yet not because I don't have anything to say but I just think there really is no "fair" answer.  I've been thinking about it a lot lately though and I think I come down on the side of not allowing people to play physical sports outside of their biological gender.  I get that really isn't fair to them.  But how fair is it to the other competitors to have a genetic male competing against genetic females (in sports where that matters)?  When you are in a situation where one group is going to get "screwed over", I side on trying to be more fair towards the majority.

 

I know I'm going to get killed for this analogy but I think it is a reasonable comparison even though it sounds bad.  There are many people who can't compete in a sport they would like, often because of some form of handicap.  Is it "fair" to that person?  Not really but that is a part of life.  I'm 5'6".  No matter how much I want it or how much time I put in practicing, I'm probably never going to have a successful basketball career partly because of my genetics.  But life goes on and you learn to live with it.  That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

 

I agree, there's no fair answer.

 

But I think your point in your 2nd paragraph speaks to a broader issue...at what point does society not bend to your reality that you've created for yourself?  This is a worse analogy than yours (although I didn't think yours was necessarily bad to begin with)...but I can say I'm the starting centerfielder for the Orioles and convince myself of it (and maybe some others who don't know anything about baseball) all the way until I try to pull into the players parking lot at Camden Yards.  At some point the reality of the world around me won't bend to the reality that I've created for myself, no matter how much time and effort I've invested in creating it.

 

And that's true for everyone, I believe that's at the root of the analogy you gave in your example. An MTF trans athlete can say she's a female, identify as a female and move through society as a female all the way up until the field of play.  But at that point its society/athletics saying back to that person "your reality doesn't match with ours."  

 

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I agree, there's no fair answer.

 

But I think your point in your 2nd paragraph speaks to a broader issue...at what point does society not bend to your reality that you've created for yourself?  This is a worse analogy than yours (although I didn't think yours was necessarily bad to begin with)...but I can say I'm the starting centerfielder for the Orioles and convince myself of it (and maybe some others who don't know anything about baseball) all the way until I try to pull into the players parking lot at Camden Yards.  At some point the reality of the world around me won't bend to the reality that I've created for myself, no matter how much time and effort I've invested in creating it.

 

And that's true for everyone, I believe that's at the root of the analogy you gave in your example. An MTF trans athlete can say she's a female, identify as a female and move through society as a female all the way up until the field of play.  But at that point its society/athletics saying back to that person "your reality doesn't match with ours."  

 

 

 

That's a good point and certainly a much broader look at the trans situation. We are all humans and should be treated well. It's an MTF trans's business if she identifies as a female and wants to move through society that way. However, to your point, that doesn't mean that everyone has to be OK with the ramifications of that. There are some situations where that creates challenges, discomfort, etc. It doesn't make those other people horrible or intolerant. 

 

In the original thread I used locker rooms as just one example. I'm happy for a MTF trans who feels comfortable in a female locker room. But does that mean that any female who isn't comfortable with that is intolerant or bad? I'm sure there's an elegant solution, but to me just forcing everything to "be considered normal" isn't the right answer. 

[bearrock]

Can they divide leagues by testosterone level or is that an inaccurate marker?

[Mooka]

1 minute ago, bearrock said:

Can they divide leagues by testosterone level or is that an inaccurate marker?

 

That sounds very complicated. 

 

Hormones go up and down depending on all sorts of factors? Actually no idea. 

[bearrock]

Just now, Mooka said:

 

That sounds very complicated. 

 

Hormones go up and down depending on all sorts of factors? Actually no idea. 

 

Quick google search after my post.  Apparently it already appears to be a thing internationally.  Not sure how it effects minor athletes as I understand that hormone treatment is not recommended for minors (I think?)

 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/oct/15/testosterone-boosts-womens-athletic-performance-study-shows

 

Quote

Boosting testosterone levels significantly improves female athletic performance, according to one of the first randomised controlled trials.

 

The findings come as the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) announced on Monday it would impose an upper limit for testosterone levels on trans female athletes competing in middle-distance events.

 

Testosterone was assumed to be performance-enhancing and a factor in explaining differences in strength and endurance between men and women. However, there was a surprising lack of evidence on the impact of testosterone in women and the question had become mired in controversy following a series of rulings in professional sport.

 

The latest research confirmed that testosterone significantly increases endurance and lean muscle mass among young women, even when given for a relatively short period.

 

Quote

The IAAF ruled this week that trans female athletes must keep their levels of natural testosterone below 5 nanomoles per litre of blood to compete in the female category. The new regulation follows a similar limit imposed on athletes with differences of sexual development (DSD), including the South African Olympic gold medallist, Caster Semenya.

 

Quote

The Court of Arbitration for Sport in May found that the rules for athletes with DSD were discriminatory, but that the discrimination was “necessary, reasonable and proportionate” to protect “the integrity of female athletics”.

 

Critics of the limit have argued that testosterone is not the dominant factor in giving men a performance advantage in certain sports.

 

Food for thought at least.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I think basing it off testosterone levels is weird. Can't there be genetic females who exceed those thresholds? If so, should they be punished?