The Guardian: Joe Biden's gender discrimination order offers hope for young trans athletes - Discussion Thread

[LadySkinsFan]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

This is crazy, as I'm not even sure the best thing to do here. 

 

On one hand, the ACLU is already ready for the fight against forcing transgender women into male only prisons.  But this consensual sex, and unconstitutional to jus keep them in solitary so they don't get anyone pregnant. And the low number of transgender women in jail doesn't seem to justify a separate facility (yet?).

 

Need help on this one, ES, what say ye?

 

Two inmates impregnated by transgender inmate at all-women’s prison in New Jersey: Report

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/apr/14/two-inmates-impregnated-transgender-inmate-all-wom/

 

 

 

 

I don't see why they don't create transgender sections of prisons/jails/bathrooms/locker rooms for transgender people and keep facilities separated for sexed persons. We all know that it's impossible to change one's sex with hormones/surgery and some people want to identify as such. So provide them with facilities that are specifically designed for the transgender population. 

 

It shouldn't be that hard. We are putting childcare equipment into male bathrooms so fathers can care for their children when a female isn't present. We can provide facilities for transgender people while respecting the bodily autonomy of males and females with their separate spaces. 

 

The problem is that the transgender people want everyone to acknowledge them as the sex they want to be although that they are not. This is especially true of those wishing for acknowledgment that they are female although they are not. 

 

 

[bcl05]

2 hours ago, tshile said:

um I think it’s also for adults seeking to change their official birth certificate. 
 

i believe there’s a legal process going on with a person who lives in Oregon or Wyoming that requested OK (where they were born) to change their birth certificate 

 

I’m sure there are some cases with newborns but my understanding is this really came about with adults seeking to change their original birth certificate 

 

I hadn't thought of that and it's obvious in retrospect.  Its also so dumb and cruel.  I don't see how it hurts anyone to allow people to go through the hassle to change their birth certificate.  

[TheGreatBuzz]

3 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said:

We all know that it's impossible to change one's sex with hormones/surgery

 

Ummmm......I don't think we all "know" this.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

On 4/10/2022 at 3:40 PM, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

The point is we, as a society, have implied with our laws that teenagers are fickle and aren't quite ready to "know" anything yet. We don't let them vote or make many high-impact decisions so why would we allow them to make this one? 

 

Children aren’t getting sexual reassignment surgery or hormone therapy are they? When I think of a transgender teenager I think of dressing in the opposite genders clothes and maybe being asked to be called a different pronoun. Not really that big of a decision.

 

I think it is a little weird but it doesn’t really affect me so whatever.

 

 

I don’t think transitioned men should be able to compete in sports with women though. It’s not fair.  Sometimes you have to make a sacrifice to be who you want to be. Sometimes you have to be an adult and set priorities.

Edited April 28, 2022 by CousinsCowgirl84

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

On 4/8/2022 at 10:46 AM, TradeTheBeal! said:

3 things that absolutely are not happening…except in the fevered imaginations and projections of really messed up people.

 

1.  Folks transitioning so they can finish higher in sporting events.

 

So you're the judge of "really messed up people".  Okay...

 

Whether that's their goal or not, is it ok for a man transitioning to a woman, to box a woman, or fight her in MMA?  Are you supportive of the Fallon Fox experiment?

[tshile]

4 hours ago, bcl05 said:

 

I hadn't thought of that and it's obvious in retrospect.  Its also so dumb and cruel.  I don't see how it hurts anyone to allow people to go through the hassle to change their birth certificate.  

yeah when you realize it’s a tiny fraction of the country… it’s really hard to understand why people are so angry. 
 

The polls of average people saying what % of people are gay/trans…. On the one hand, and I argued this when we were discussing it, it’s good because it means it becomes more acceptable when people believe it’s bigger. But on the other hand it also induced rage to a level that’s completely unnecessary.

 

The culture war bull**** is just incredible. The list of things people are outraged about, juxtaposed with how it actually personally affects them… it’s just so out of whack. 
 

you’d think there’s an army of trans women ready to take over collegiate sports, to reduce women back to second class citizens, and turn all our children into trans frogs or something. 
 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

10 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Children aren’t getting sexual reassignment surgery or hormone therapy are they? When I think of a transgender teenager I think of dressing in the opposite genders clothes and maybe being asked to be called a different pronoun. Not really that big of a decision.

 

I think it is a little weird but it doesn’t really affect me so whatever.

 

 

I don’t think transitioned men should be able to compete in sports with women though. It’s not fair.  Sometimes you have to make a sacrifice to be who you want to be. Sometimes you have to be an adult and set priorities.

 

To your first point, I was addressing the reassignment surgery and hormone therapy...and someone under 18 having the legal right to do so. That is what I'm against because of the lasting ramifications. The girl wearing boy clothes and wanting to be called "Max" for a semester might just be this generation's black eyeliner or cowboy hat phase. Whatever. Do what you want to do, I guess...but that isn't what I was referring to as nothing is permanent (as you mentioned). But, if I'm wrong about the first scenario and there's no places kids can have those procedures, then I must have overreacted. My apologies. 

 

I agree with you on the athletics...which is probably pretty clear from my posts in here

[TD_washingtonredskins]

11 hours ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

Ummmm......I don't think we all "know" this.

 

Oh, I thought we did too. I was under the impression that gender reassignment surgery could provide patients with the cosmetic "parts" of the other sex, but that they couldn't change chromosomes that make one a male or female. 

 

https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/sex-reassignment-doesnt-work-here-the-evidence

[CousinsCowgirl84]

39 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

To your first point, I was addressing the reassignment surgery and hormone therapy...and someone under 18 having the legal right to do so.

But is that happening?

[TheGreatBuzz]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Oh, I thought we did too. I was under the impression that gender reassignment surgery could provide patients with the cosmetic "parts" of the other sex, but that they couldn't change chromosomes that make one a male or female. 

 

https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/sex-reassignment-doesnt-work-here-the-evidence

 

I wouldn't choose the Heritage Foundation as a source.  But you are right that the majority of the medical community sees that difference between sex and gender.  But when it comes to laws, it is a lot more ambiguous.  Personally,  I think we should use that difference between gender and sex, that the former is identity and sex is chromosome based.  But it is a contested issue to say the least legally.  Definitely not something we all "know".  Here is from one rights group:

 

Quote

Gender – (noun) an individual’s actual or perceived sex, gender identity, self-image, appearance, behavior, or expression, whether or not that gender identity, self-image, appearance, behavior or expression is different from that traditionally associated with the sex assigned at birth.

https://www.genderequalitylaw.org/lgtbqdefinitions

 

And here is from the ACLU: 

Quote

KNOW YOUR RIGHTSBack to Know Your Rights main page

Sex Discrimination

Sex discrimination occurs when a person is treated less favorably because of that person’s sex, which includes sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, pregnancy or pregnancy-related condition (including lactation), or a sex stereotype. Learn more here about your right to be protected against sex discrimination and what to do if your rights are violated.

https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/sex-discrimination/

 

I think having a well-established difference would be helpful but unfortunately we don't.   And that lack of clarity is used negatively when writing particular laws.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by The Almighty Buzz

[LadySkinsFan]

11 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Children aren’t getting sexual reassignment surgery or hormone therapy are they? When I think of a transgender teenager I think of dressing in the opposite genders clothes and maybe being asked to be called a different pronoun. Not really that big of a decision.

 

I think it is a little weird but it doesn’t really affect me so whatever.

 

 

I don’t think transitioned men should be able to compete in sports with women though. It’s not fair.  Sometimes you have to make a sacrifice to be who you want to be. Sometimes you have to be an adult and set priorities.

 

Puberty blockers are drugs given to children to delay or stop a child from going through puberty on their way to developing into an adult. This is having some horrendous results. For example, Jazz Jennings had puberty blockers resulting in retaining a child penis and he had trouble getting surgery because there wasn't enough penile material to create a fake vulva and vagina. He's had several surgeries to try and fix this. He has no reproductive capabilities as he never developed sperm. He incapable of sexual pleasure because of the surgeries. 

 

I consider this child abuse because the physical issues all started with puberty blockers and female hormones to develop breasts. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

But is that happening?

Like I said, I'm not sure. I was referencing laws that were being put into place to prevent it from happening prior to 18: 

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/02/06/transgender-youth-transition-treatment-state-bills/4605054002/

 

I'm all for that. Even if it's not addressing something that's happening at this moment, I don't think this is something that will come up less in the future. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

I wouldn't choose the Heritage Foundation as a source.  But you are right that the majority of the medical community sees that difference between sex and gender.  But when it comes to laws, it is a lot more ambiguous.  Personally,  I think we should use that difference between gender and sex, that the former is identity and sex is chromosome based.  But it is a contested issue to say the least legally.  Definitely not something we all "know".  Here is from one rights group:

 

 

And here is from the ACLU: 

 

I think having a well-established difference would be helpful but unfortunately we don't.   And that lack of clarity is used negatively when writing particular laws.

 

 

Sorry...I don't agree and think you're intentionally splitting hairs to win a semantical argument. Sex is irreversible and won't be changed. Anyone who's done any level of research into this topic does "know" that. 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

24 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Like I said, I'm not sure. I was referencing laws that were being put into place to prevent it from happening prior to 18: 

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/02/06/transgender-youth-transition-treatment-state-bills/4605054002/

 

I'm all for that. Even if it's not addressing something that's happening at this moment, I don't think this is something that will come up less in the future. 

If it isn’t happening there is no reason to make it illegal, other than finger wagging…

[TD_washingtonredskins]

4 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

If it isn’t happening there is no reason to make it illegal, other than finger wagging…

 

Eh, if you think something is wrong and think people might do it then I do think it's something you should consider making illegal. Waiting for people to do something you believe is wrong before you legislate against it seems wrong. Now, if you don't ever think it's something that would come up, I'd agree with you. But it's ignorant to think this trend isn't moving in the direction of younger kids being interested in and doing this. 

[tshile]

1 minute ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Eh, if you think something is wrong and think people might do it then I do think it's something you should consider making illegal. Waiting for people to do something you believe is wrong before you legislate against it seems wrong. Now, if you don't ever think it's something that would come up, I'd agree with you. But it's ignorant to think this trend isn't moving in the direction of younger kids being interested in and doing this. 

i think both of you have a point and the answer is in the middle somewhere. 
 

I think with most people it’s not hard to see if something specific is being proposed because it needs to be illegal and could reasonable occur and there’s no value (or specifically - potential harm) in waiting for someone to do it before making it illegal. 
 

or… If someone is playing politics and has an agenda or is trying to harm a group of people unnecessarily. 
 

unfortunately people will absolutely try to be clever about it. It is what it is. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

5 minutes ago, tshile said:

i think both of you have a point and the answer is in the middle somewhere. 
 

I think with most people it’s not hard to see if something specific is being proposed because it needs to be illegal and could reasonable occur and there’s no value (or specifically - potential harm) in waiting for someone to do it before making it illegal. 
 

or… If someone is playing politics and has an agenda or is trying to harm a group of people unnecessarily. 
 

unfortunately people will absolutely try to be clever about it. It is what it is. 

 

Agreed. 

 

If you spend time and effort making it illegal to own cats on the moon, that seems stupid. But given the upswing in transgenderism, if you are someone who believes those procedures to be harmful to children, it's reasonable to get ahead of it to harm as few kids as possible. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

59 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Sorry...I don't agree and think you're intentionally splitting hairs to win a semantical argument. Sex is irreversible and won't be changed. Anyone who's done any level of research into this topic does "know" that. 

 

While I may agree with you and LSF's definition,  the fact that the law doesn't make that distinction (therefore saying it is something we all "know") is important and more than just a semantics point in a thread where we regularly debate laws affecting gender and sex.

[The Evil Genius]

Imo..The argument is over sex vs gender. 

 

Doctors might assign you a sex based on genitals at birth, but gender is entirely different and not dependent on the sex organs someone is born with. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by The Evil Genius

[TD_washingtonredskins]

4 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

The argument is over sex vs gender. 

 

Doctors might assign you a sex based on genitals at birth, but gender is entirely different and not dependent on the sex organs someone is born with. 

 

I think for a long time those two terms were used interchangeably (whether right or wrong). What I think needs to be determined as a society is which of those terms governs different areas and divisions of our world. For example, are school bathrooms/locker rooms divided by gender or sex? Once that is determined, who is allowed in which one becomes an easy answer. Olympic sports, gender or sex? We may decide that some things no longer need to be segregated anymore...maybe we don't need men's and women's for certain things. That's fine too. 

 

But, just so that everyone is on the same page and can know what to expect, it's only fair that we are all playing from the same sheet of music. That way, a biological male who now identifies as a female and wants to use the women's bathroom will know if that's permitted or not because it's determined based on sex (no) or gender (yes). Or, a biological female competing in a women's 400m hurdles race will know if she's racing against all other biological females or not because it's determined based on sex (yes) or gender (no). 

 

 

[The Evil Genius]

 

Quote

The new study, published in the journal Pediatrics, followed this cohort as they reached a milestone roughly five years out from their initial social transitions. The study found that 94 percent of the group still identified as transgender five years later. Another 3.5 percent identified as nonbinary, meaning they did not identify as boys or girls. That label wasn’t as widely used when the researchers began the study as it is today.

 

By the end of the study period, in 2020, 60 percent of the children had started taking either puberty-blocking drugs or hormones. The researchers are still collecting data about how many of the teenage participants had undergone gender surgeries, Dr. Olson said.

 

Eight children, or 2.5 percent, had switched back to the gender they were assigned at birth. Seven of them had socially transitioned before the age of 6 and transitioned back before the age of 9. The eighth child, at 11 years old, reverted after starting on puberty-blocking drugs.

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by The Evil Genius

[tshile]

That last part tells me we shouldn’t be letting 6 year olds make this decision. 
 

 

[ClaytoAli]

According to the Williams Institute, 1.4 million adults identify as transgender in the United States. About 0.7% of adults 18-24 identify as transgender, and 0.5% of adults 65 and older identify as transgender.

 

The ten states with the highest percentage of transgender people are:

1. Hawaii (0.60%)
2. New Mexico (0.56%)
3. California (0.55%)
4. Georgia (0.51%)
5. Vermont (0.48%)
6. Mississippi (0.46%)
7. Oklahoma (0.46%)
8. Oregon (0.46%)
9. Delaware (0.46%)
10. Alabama (0.45%)

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/transgender-population-by-state
 

All of this arguing for a pinky nail full of people. 334.6 million people in America.

Edited May 4, 2022 by ClaytoAli

[Jabbyrwock]

11 minutes ago, ClaytoAli said:

334.6 billion people in America.

 

[ClaytoAli]

7 minutes ago, Jabbyrwock said:

 

Man that was an F- on my term paper FTW. Spell check won’t catch that!

Edited May 4, 2022 by ClaytoAli