The Guardian: Joe Biden's gender discrimination order offers hope for young trans athletes - Discussion Thread

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

But I have no pitchforks for this. And if my daughter is bumped out by a trans kid the discussion will be about the lesson in life of competition and trying hard and accepting you won’t always win; and figuring out if it’s worth trying harder to win next time. 
 

im certainly not going to rant and rave about how the liberals have destroyed my daughters childhood or whatever else. 
 

the part that sucks is people who just hate trans people and want to exclude them, happen to say some of these same things. I’m not blind to that. And it does suck to recognize that. But I do not think the points I’ve made are wrong or irrelevant. I think they’re worthy of consideration 

 

and I think the bigots should be ignored. When possible - reached out to. But that certainly doesn’t happen via the media. It’s more of a personal conversation thing. 

This is a great post. 

 

The same would happen in my household on a micro level. But I'm also able to look at the bigger picture and think there's a better way to address it (as I can tell you are). In no way is any child's sports success or enjoyment more important than another's life. My whole angle in these discussions is to not forget that the "inclusion" screams are not victimless and we shouldn't just rush to "include" as quickly and ham-handed as we can without thinking about the impact to others. 

[Cooked Crack]

 

Didn't have a better place to post. Not trans but I assume there's gonna be other women who won't be able to compete due to new rules.

[GhostofSparta]

1 hour ago, Cooked Crack said:

Didn't have a better place to post. Not trans but I assume there's gonna be other women who won't be able to compete due to new rules.

Well obviously it's better that 100 cis women like her suffer needlessly under stupid rules so that 1 trans woman doesn't succeed. Duh.

[bcl05]

This Banda case highlights the complexity of this debate and the efforts to ban trans athletes, or even to define "women".  

While sex/gender is straightforward for many people, there are lots of folks who do not simply fit in easy to define categories.  (full disclosure, I'm a geneticist, and see patients with complex genetic disorders, including disorders of sex differentiation/DSDs all the time).  

 

Most, but not all, women have 46 chromosomes, including 2 X chromosomes and no Y chromosomes.  Most, but not all, men have 46 chromosomes including one X chromosome and one Y chromosome. 

 

There are women with Y chromosomes and testes who may not even know it.  The most common cause of this that I see (though certainly not the only thing) is CAIS, complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, which is the result of a genetic variant leading to lack of response to testosterone.  With this condition, the external genitalia/appearance are completely "female" in appearance, so these girls are assigned "female" at birth.  They typically don't have internal uterus/fallopian tube/ovaries, and have testes.  Their testosterone levels are sky high, though their body is not masculinized (since they don't respond to testosterone).  Typically, these girls are diagnosed as teenagers when they don't have typical puberty/menses.  Girls and women with this are otherwise entirely healthy and normal.  Most often, these patients feel like girls and have no ambiguity in their gender identity.  I suspect just about everyone has met folks with this and not known it.   What sports leagues do they belong in?  

There are lots of 46XX, anatomically typical women with genetic variants in some of the enzymes that produce steroid hormones that lead to greater than normal amounts of testosterone (most common cause is called congenital adrenal hyperplasia/CAH, but there are others).  These women are generally healthy, though they can have some issues with infertility. They typically have greater muscle mass than other women and may have other stereotypically masculine features/bone structure/etc.  They are over-represented at the highest levels of women's sports.  What leagues do they belong in?

 

I saw a patient recently who had mosaicism, with some of their cells having XY and some with no Y chromosome.  Genital exam was mostly phenotypically male, but gonad biopsy has mixed ovarian and testicular features.  When this kid grows up, what sports league do they belong in?

 

I could go on and on and on about different examples of patients of mine that blur the lines between the reductive male/female dichotomy.   Biology is just way more complicated than people realize.  

 

The whole idea that simply splitting athletes into "male" and "female" will make everything fair and even doesn't really reflect reality.  First, while male/female is simple for many people, that isn't true for everyone.  Also, there are tons of biological factors that give advantages or disadvantages to certain athletes, why is gender/sex different?  

 

I am very glad there are women's/girl's sports.  I want as many people to have the experience of teamwork and the joys of competition as possible.  I don't see an easy way to categorically define women or men that accounts for all the variables.  It seems the easiest thing to do is allow people to compete where they identify.  i think about these biological categories all the time, and there are really no simple answers.  I default to kindness and inclusion wherever possible.  

 

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by bcl05

[TheGreatBuzz]

58 minutes ago, bcl05 said:

This Banda case highlights the complexity of this debate and the efforts to ban trans athletes, or even to define "women".  

While sex/gender is straightforward for many people, there are lots of folks who do not simply fit in easy to define categories.  (full disclosure, I'm a geneticist, and see patients with complex genetic disorders, including disorders of sex differentiation/DSDs all the time).  

 

Most, but not all, women have 46 chromosomes, including 2 X chromosomes and no Y chromosomes.  Most, but not all, men have 46 chromosomes including one X chromosome and one Y chromosome. 

 

There are women with Y chromosomes and testes who may not even know it.  The most common cause of this that I see (though certainly not the only thing) is CAIS, complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, which is the result of a genetic variant leading to lack of response to testosterone.  With this condition, the external genitalia/appearance are completely "female" in appearance, so these girls are assigned "female" at birth.  They typically don't have internal uterus/fallopian tube/ovaries, and have testes.  Their testosterone levels are sky high, though their body is not masculinized (since they don't respond to testosterone).  Typically, these girls are diagnosed as teenagers when they don't have typical puberty/menses.  Girls and women with this are otherwise entirely healthy and normal.  Most often, these patients feel like girls and have no ambiguity in their gender identity.  I suspect just about everyone has met folks with this and not known it.   What sports leagues do they belong in?  

There are lots of 46XX, anatomically typical women with genetic variants in some of the enzymes that produce steroid hormones that lead to greater than normal amounts of testosterone (most common cause is called congenital adrenal hyperplasia/CAH, but there are others).  These women are generally healthy, though they can have some issues with infertility. They typically have greater muscle mass than other women and may have other stereotypically masculine features/bone structure/etc.  They are over-represented at the highest levels of women's sports.  What leagues do they belong in?

 

I saw a patient recently who had mosaicism, with some of their cells having XY and some with no Y chromosome.  Genital exam was mostly phenotypically male, but gonad biopsy has mixed ovarian and testicular features.  When this kid grows up, what sports league do they belong in?

 

I could go on and on and on about different examples of patients of mine that blur the lines between the reductive male/female dichotomy.   Biology is just way more complicated than people realize.  

 

The whole idea that simply splitting athletes into "male" and "female" will make everything fair and even doesn't really reflect reality.  First, while male/female is simple for many people, that isn't true for everyone.  Also, there are tons of biological factors that give advantages or disadvantages to certain athletes, why is gender/sex different?  

 

I am very glad there are women's/girl's sports.  I want as many people to have the experience of teamwork and the joys of competition as possible.  I don't see an easy way to categorically define women or men that accounts for all the variables.  It seems the easiest thing to do is allow people to compete where they identify.  i think about these biological categories all the time, and there are really no simple answers.  I default to kindness and inclusion wherever possible.  

 

 

 

 

 

Can I get a tl;dr?

[Corcaigh]

Is there a biological reason why African women seem more likely to have conditions such as 46 XY karotype?

 

Among the more well known cases at the Olympic/World level 

 

Banda - Zambia

Semenya - South Africa

Mboma - Namibia

Masilingi - Namibia

Niyonsaba - Burundi

Wambui - Kenya

 

And this brings out the worst in some audiences as in the distance running events you have petite females being beaten by dark skinned Africans who are much less photogenic and representative of a female ideal to their eyes.

 

36 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

Can I get a tl;dr?

It would be well worth a couple of minutes of your time. 😀

 

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Corcaigh

[PleaseBlitz]

1 hour ago, bcl05 said:

I'm a geneticist, and see patients with complex genetic disorders, including disorders of sex differentiation/DSDs all the time).

 

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to argue with you about genetics.  

 

In all seriousness, that is one of the best posts I've seen in a long time on this forum. 

[Corcaigh]

9 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to argue with you about genetics.  

 

“I didn’t spend all those years and all that money on  medical school but at least I know what a woman is!!!!!!”

[GhostofSparta]

3 hours ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

Can I get a tl;dr?

According to an actual geneticist, any test to keep Cis women's sports "pure" from the evil Trans athletes are going to exclude some cis women who have specific genetic differences that will cause them to fail these tests.

 

But like Corcaigh said, take a couple minutes to read it.

[The Evil Genius]

4 hours ago, Corcaigh said:

“I didn’t spend all those years and all that money on  medical school but at least I know what a woman is!!!!!!”

 

Well... he didn't mention how they all would likely all jump on and beat up lesbians..so there's that. 

 

[Cooked Crack]

 

[Larry]

Just watched this post, on YouTube. Thought it deserved being shared. The blogger is really a political commentator, in (can I say "the Liberal Redneck school"?). 
 

But it's about "Trans". And this seems the thread for it. 
 

(Also, I highly recommend the show, and the episode, being discussed.)

 

 

[The Evil Genius]

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Counterpoint:  the they/them thing is kinda exhausting and the “latinx” deal is a total boondoggle that’s killing the DNC with the Latino vote.

Edited July 15, 2022 by TradeTheBeal!

[The Evil Genius]

"They/them" has been used for hundreds of years in English. It's not that hard to refer to someone as they/them. 

 

Edit. As far back as 1375 according to

https://grammar.yourdictionary.com/grammar/pronouns/using-they-them-pronouns-for-a-singular-person.html

Edited July 15, 2022 by The Evil Genius

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, The Evil Genius said:

"They/them" has been used for hundreds of years in English. It's not that hard to refer to someone as they/them. 

 

I was about to say lol....been using "they/them" for at least 40 years now when the gender of the person I'm talking about isn't known or obvious. If I'm now being told "keep using they/them" it's no big deal whatsoever.

[TradeTheBeal!]

Oh great, now I’m gonna get mansplained the history of the English language.

[The Evil Genius]

5 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Oh great, now I’m gonna get mansplained the history of the English language.

 

Weren't you just doing that? Or has your pair not emerged yet? 😁

 

Tbf and to keep with the topic, you could also be transitioning and mansplaining too. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by The Evil Genius

[TradeTheBeal!]

5 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

Weren't you just doing that? Or has your pair not emerged yet? 😁

Nope, no mansplaining or even personal attacks.  Just an opinion that triggered you.

 

Sorry, bro.

[Larry]

39 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

"They/them" has been used for hundreds of years in English. It's not that hard to refer to someone as they/them. 

 

Edit. As far back as 1375 according to

https://grammar.yourdictionary.com/grammar/pronouns/using-they-them-pronouns-for-a-singular-person.html

Your article also states that those words stopped being used for individuals, 400 years later. So those words haven't been used that way since before we stopped "thou"-ing. 
 

Seems comparable to the "Israel is a country and Palestine isn't, because Israel existed 2,000 years ago" line of "reasoning". 

[The Evil Genius]

9 minutes ago, Larry said:

Your article also states that those words stopped being used for individuals, 400 years later. So those words haven't been used that way since before we stopped "thou"-ing. 
 

Seems comparable to the "Israel is a country and Palestine isn't, because Israel existed 2,000 years ago" line of "reasoning". 

 

Are you referencing this?

 

Quote

No one even claimed they and them were solely plural pronouns until four hundred years later — and even then, grammarians demanded that you was also only a plural pronoun (thou was the singular form). But like indoor plumbing and sanitation, grammar has come a long way since the 17th century, and proper usage ain't what it used to be.

 

If so, I don't read it it the same way as you (or should I'd say thou)...

[TradeTheBeal!]

Lemme also add that I don’t consider the concept of “mansplaining” to be subject to rigid gender ideology.  It’s really just a clever term for loudmouth know-it-alls that always have to get the last word…which obviously are often very goofy men.

 

For instance, the biggest “mansplainer” in the tailgate…and possibly in the entire universe…is @CousinsCowgirl84.  Old girl can mansplain like nobody’s business!

Edited July 15, 2022 by TradeTheBeal!

[The Evil Genius]

But I'm too boring to be goofy. 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

44 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Lemme also add that I don’t consider the concept of “mansplaining” to be subject to rigid gender ideology.  It’s really just a clever term for loudmouth know-it-alls that always have to get the last word…which obviously are often very goofy men.

 

For instance, the biggest “mansplainer” in the tailgate…and possibly in the entire universe…is @CousinsCowgirl84.  Old girl can mansplain like nobody’s business!

I can’t help that I’m right about everything. 🤷‍♀️

[TD_washingtonredskins]

59 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Lemme also add that I don’t consider the concept of “mansplaining” to be subject to rigid gender ideology.  It’s really just a clever term for loudmouth know-it-alls that always have to get the last word…which obviously are often very goofy men.

 

For instance, the biggest “mansplainer” in the tailgate…and possibly in the entire universe…is @CousinsCowgirl84.  Old girl can mansplain like nobody’s business!

Wait, @CousinsCowgirl84 is a chick?