Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[Berggy9598]

1 minute ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

Because there is more nuance to gameplanning than just running concepts.  At the high school level - Phoebus High School (State champs again) - we broke down everything.  We didn't just blindly run our passing concepts thinking they're always going to work.  That would be next level stupid.  The kind of stuff you can get away with in little league.  When you go up levels, you have to do your homework.  Look at the personnel.  Who can play and who can't?   Do I have a match up against a bad receiver?  What kind of defense?  Zone? Man? Hybrid?  What are the tendencies of certain dbs?  Is he handsy?  Over aggressive?  Conservative?  etc.

 

I remember a pass rusher in the NFL who came to speak once from Hampton Highschool.  (Robert Banks I think - also played at Notre Dame)  He said they destroyed Houston once because the D line knew that if Moon's feet were parallel it was a run.  If he had his right foot back it was a pass.  In the pros, they look for every possible advantage.  

 

So, I don't know if a receiver was missed.  And neither do you.  

We understand the concepts of play calling and opposition scouting. The idea that only the OC knows if open receivers were missed is still wrong. 

[zCommander]

38 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said:

The idea that only the OC knows if open receivers were missed is still wrong. 

 

Our OC does sit high and above and if he can't see if the open WRs are missed then he should be fired. 

[skinny21]

16 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

From what I read:

 

- Terry couldn't get open because, like in the NO, he was blanketed, even though that's always gonna be the case with a QB that underthrows him.

- Receivers missed a ton of easy throws.  What he said: “there are too many easy balls that are dropped”

- No one was able to beat their man even though that was absolutely not the case What he said: “I’m sure he’d like to have someone [who can] dominate their man on a regular basis”

- Turner had a bad game plan.

- If it wasn't for Taylor's houdini act, we'd have been completely blown out.  What he said:  “That’s three games in a row where Heinicke has [had] to work some Houdini magic in the pocket”

- He's now got PTSD

 

Yet, you, like some others, seem to focus on a guy that hasn't played in a month? Weird whataboutism from both of you. BTW, almost a year ago to the date, Chase had 1 sack, FF, FR and TD return in that SF game and everyone loved him. Interested to see where Parsons is in a year.

Just wanted to defend @ThomasRoane here a bit, in part because it matches my thoughts as well, and in part because there’s a tendency to think that if anything else is pointed out about a poor offensive showing, it must mean the poster is a Heinicke “apologist”.  It’s not about defending TH.  In fact TR (and I) pointed out his poor play in previous posts.  It doesn’t help when we read extra things into each other’s posts either.

 

Regarding the game plan, I can’t say for sure, but as I said previously, while they threw screens and called an occasional roll out, if felt like Turner could have done more.  But I also said that he had personnel limitations, and that very much includes Heinicke displaying poor mechanics, and therefore poor accuracy, his arm limitations (though that should be, and I’m sure is/was baked into the game plan) and holding the ball too long at times.

 

As to the PTSD comment, I’m not sure how you can see it any other way to be honest.  Has he faced more pressure the past 3 weeks?  Have his mechanics taken a hit because of it?  Has he looked more panicked out there?  This isn’t to say he should be absolved of anything, but it seems pretty apparent the pressure is getting to him, even when his pass pro holds up.  It will be interesting to see if he learns something from this, or if he’s now on the Carr/Ramsey slide into oblivion.

My hope is that McKissick’s absence has been a big factor - both his pass pro and his presence as an outlet for TH - and that getting Sweitzer back helps.  Gonna be rough though if Leno is out for a time… Lucas, Cosmi (when he returns) and Charles are not guys I’m confident in in terms of pass pro.

 

While I’m in the camp that Heinicke should get the rest of the year, I think I’d sit him vs the Eagles.  Lord knows he’s gotta be banged up.  I’d be tempted to let Allen start the Cowboys game as well (depending on his play vs the Eagles and Heinicke’s health).  TH either relieves Allen against the Cowboys/Eagles (if necessary), or rests for 3 weeks and plays the last 2 games.

[ThomasRoane]

2 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Just wanted to defend @ThomasRoane here a bit, in part because it matches my thoughts as well, and in part because there’s a tendency to think that if anything else is pointed out about a poor offensive showing, it must mean the poster is a Heinicke “apologist”.  It’s not about defending TH.  In fact TR (and I) pointed out his poor play in previous posts.  It doesn’t help when we read extra things into each other’s posts either.

 

Regarding the game plan, I can’t say for sure, but as I said previously, while they threw screens and called an occasional roll out, if felt like Turner could have done more.  But I also said that he had personnel limitations, and that very much includes Heinicke displaying poor mechanics, and therefore poor accuracy, his arm limitations (though that should be, and I’m sure is/was baked into the game plan) and holding the ball too long at times.

 

As to the PTSD comment, I’m not sure how you can see it any other way to be honest.  Has he faced more pressure the past 3 weeks?  Have his mechanics taken a hit because of it?  Has he looked more panicked out there?  This isn’t to say he should be absolved of anything, but it seems pretty apparent the pressure is getting to him, even when his pass pro holds up.  It will be interesting to see if he learns something from this, or if he’s now on the Carr/Ramsey slide into oblivion.

My hope is that McKissick’s absence has been a big factor - both his pass pro and his presence as an outlet for TH - and that getting Sweitzer back helps.  Gonna be rough though if Leno is out for a time… Lucas, Cosmi (when he returns) and Charles are not guys I’m confident in in terms of pass pro.

 

While I’m in the camp that Heinicke should get the rest of the year, I think I’d sit him vs the Eagles.  Lord knows he’s gotta be banged up.  I’d be tempted to let Allen start the Cowboys game as well (depending on his play vs the Eagles and Heinicke’s health).  TH either relieves Allen against the Cowboys/Eagles (if necessary), or rests for 3 weeks and plays the last 2 games.

 

Very thoughtful analysis.  I sensed the same thing about TH.  The last three weeks he has been pressured a lot.  Even the great QB's start to see things and they speed up their internal clock. (Not so much out of fear of getting hit but the fear of getting sacked)    I even posted earlier that, injury or not, I thought it was the right move to insert Allen and sit Heinicke.  Just as you would a pitcher who can't seem to get the ball across the plate.  

 

Turner is better at tactics (2nd half adjustments) than his dad was.  He got some things going but it was a little too late.  Didn't help losing Terry and it was the right call to sit Gibson after the fumble.  No matter how talented he is.  The Oline was banged up.  Turner didn't have a lot of options but he got them going.  They still managed to move the ball; and score twice. 

 

Philly is no doubt going to copy the cowpies defensive gameplan.  At least I hope so.  Because Turner and his staff will have had a chance to analyze and counter.  I fully expect this coaching staff to have a much better game plan vs dallas the 2nd game.  They've done pretty well so far at using what they have.  You don't hear a lot of whining about what they don't have.  They don't make excuses.  They make adjustments.  We also know Heinicke is a competitor.  So, I think we'll see a better effort from him as well.  If it's time to roll with Allen then I'm fine with it.  I'm with KDawg though in questioning Allen's ability to be a playmaker; especially in a dirty pocket.  We'll see how it plays out.  

 

Sure would be nice to have Terry and McKissic back this week though.  That would really help.  

Edited December 14, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[NoCalMike]

Heinicke has hit a wall. Not necessarily because he did anything wrong or suddenly sucks.  It's because the coordinators with the capable personnel are game planning around his weaknesses, and the problem with his weaknesses is they aren't things that you can coach around.  You can't send Henicke to the workout room for a month and suddenly he develops the kind of arm that will beat tight man coverage.  You either have that ability or you don't, and he doesn't.   QBs that generally lack certain physical attributes don't last long as starters in the NFL because it leaves too much being left on the field during any given game.

 

What good is it if you have McLaurin getting a step on Diggs if the QB doesn't have the arm or confidence to drop a laser over Terry's shoulder for a huge completion?  What good is it if you have a WR with a couple steps on the DB in an out route towards the sideline, but the QB can't throw the ball with enough velocity so the WR isn't stopping his route to try and make an emergency catch before the DB closes in?

 

Heinicke has his positive attributes, but ultimately he is lacking things you *need* in a starting NFL QB. 

[TMK9973]

 

Dude has a bunch of good games and its "Hes lucky, it was great plays by others, its this, its that"  He has a TERRIBLE game and its "well that shows you its all over".

 

Do I think Heinicke is a a future HOF -No.  

Do I think he gives us the best chance to win games in the last 10 years? Yes (Outside Alex Smith)..  Kirk Cousins was a better QB, but doesnt have "it". WHen the game is on the line, when you need your QB to light a spark, when you need a QB to be a leader -KC will prob throw a INT or fight with a WR.  

TH will run around like crazy and drive you down the field.  

 

KC has 19 4th qtr game winning drives out of 117 games. He is also 1 game under 500.  So 16%

TH has 4 4th qtr game winning drive out of 13 (Not even counting the TB game where his great drive ended the game) and is 1 game under 500.  

 

Yet, without a doubt, KC has much better talent and skills and has played on better team for longer.  

 

The players all tell you TH has "IT". The numbers say he has "IT".  

Despite the Terrible game he had, Im still convinced that If he was able to come in for that last drive -he would have lead us down for a score.  BTW-I did look it up. Kyle Allan -17 games started, 1 4th qtr game winning drive. 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by TMK9973

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

You're not being objective because I have been honest about TH's shortcomings.  You're seeing what you want to see at this point.  Because being right is more important to you than trying to figure out how the problems can be corrected next week.  Your answer, like Snyder, is just pull the QB.  Bench him!  If you go to Allen, and he wets the bed, now what?  You haven't thought this thru.    

 

My entire point was that you're so heavily invested in TH and that 'being right' is much more important to you than it is to me.  Hence why after every bad game you show up with 1000 words on everyone else and why they stink and just a few words about TH not playing well.   It's abundantly clear, just own it man.  I don't really have any skin in this game, nor have I ever said to bench him.  I've been rather clear that I think he's earned the right to play out the season.  You must have me confused with someone else.

8 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

Not picking on you about this but as a coach I can't help but laugh at people who point out a guy that was wide open after the play.  I don't care who is breaking down film.  Kurt Warner, Tom Brady, or Joe Gibbs himself.  The ONLY person who can give you a good analysis is the OC.  Scott Turner in this case.  Only he can tell you the order of progressions.  Who was #1, #2, #3, etc.  

Then as a coach, you should probably point and laugh at yourself because you show up wildly defending this dude's play every week as if you know the ins and outs of Turner's playbook and Heineke's abilities.  I guess everyone that analyzes football for a living should just hang it up because they can't possibly grasp what's going on.  In fact everyone should just stop having opinions about football and bow down to you.  😂

[TradeTheBeal!]

Is Taylor Heinicke actually a playoff quarterback?  No.

 

Is Taylor Heinicke good enough to drag this gritty, ragtag group into Philly and cook up the Eagles?  Yes.

[DEASkins]

11 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Is Taylor Heinicke actually a playoff quarterback?  No.

 

Is Taylor Heinicke good enough to drag this gritty, ragtag group into Philly and cook up the Eagles?  Yes.

I hope it's habanero sauce

[skins island connection]

17 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

I mean wasn’t the biggest gripe in GB is that Rodgers continually has zero weapons but makes the ones he has look like stars? Tonyan? Lazard? Scantling-Valdez? It was kind of the same for many years for Brady in NE, especially when Gronk was hurt. He had the likes of Brandon Lefell and Amendola yet still made the guys looks like legit stars. To many these guys only look like stars because the QB made them look like stars.

 

 2018 Tonyan: 4 rec.  77yds 1 TD         2019:  10 rec.  100 yds  1 TD    2020:  52 rec.  586 yds  11 TD

           Valdez:  38 rec.  581 yds  2TD                26 rec.  452 yds  2 TD                33 rec.  680 yds    6 TD

           Lazard:  1 rec.    7 yds    0 TD                  35 rec.  477 yds  3 TD                33 rec.  451 yds    3 TD

 

Well, i've never been to GB so I couldn't tell you, but you're making my point without realizing it, but I wouldn't call those 3 guys "stars", thats reaching, big time.

Not the fact that in 2018 and 2019 all 3 guys didn't muster what McLaurin did by himself last year, but also the fact that you're comparing a guy who has played in the league for 15 years and was mentored by another HOF QB.  The ONLY reason any of those guys even had their names breathed was because of the person throwing the ball to them. C'mon man, 2020 was their best year, AND they played together for 3 years as well, which gave Rodgers the chance to get in tune with their abilities. The reason Tonyan did so well was because defenses were triple-covering some other guy there named DaVante' Adams, whoever THAT bum is { obvious sarcasm }. 

 

I'm not being an apologist, i'm looking at reality. Next year's draft doesn't look good for the QB market, maybe there's a diamond in the rough somewhere, but there's no QB guru coach on this team so thats a moot point. We can say the same thing about Brady as above. They are both future HOF guys, yet Heinicke has played less games than either QB has played YEARS, and  anyone who thinks about making a comparison between Heinicke and the above listed are not talking common sense. 

 

TH has limitations, and he's not a QB to put the team on his back, he is part of a machine called the offense, and if any part of that machine breaks down it will affect the entire machine. He played a bad game, everyone knows this, just as every other QB who has ever played in the NFL has, and he may not be the future, but if he gets some quality help outside of McLaurin, and the OC realizes TH isn't a pocket QB, things will change for the better. If you want to kick the guy when he's down, well thats you...

[Berggy9598]

46 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

My entire point was that you're so heavily invested in TH and that 'being right' is much more important to you than it is to me.  Hence why after every bad game you show up with 1000 words on everyone else and why they stink and just a few words about TH not playing well.   It's abundantly clear, just own it man.  I don't really have any skin in this game, nor have I ever said to bench him.  I've been rather clear that I think he's earned the right to play out the season.  You must have me confused with someone else.

Then as a coach, you should probably point and laugh at yourself because you show up wildly defending this dude's play every week as if you know the ins and outs of Turner's playbook and Heineke's abilities.  I guess everyone that analyzes football for a living should just hang it up because they can't possibly grasp what's going on.  In fact everyone should just stop having opinions about football and bow down to you.  😂

At least now we can tell our ladies we know what it feels like to get mansplained. 

[PartyPosse]

33 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

Well, i've never been to GB so I couldn't tell you, but you're making my point without realizing it, but I wouldn't call those 3 guys "stars", thats reaching, big time.

I didn’t say they were stars. I said he makes them look like stars.

[CjSuAvE22]

1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Is Taylor Heinicke actually a playoff quarterback?  No.

 

 

I dont think he is either but once in anything can happen... imo

[LetThePointsSoar]

43 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

 

TH has limitations, and he's not a QB to put the team on his back, he is part of a machine called the offense, and if any part of that machine breaks down it will affect the entire machine. He played a bad game, everyone knows this, just as every other QB who has ever played in the NFL has, and he may not be the future, but if he gets some quality help outside of McLaurin, and the OC realizes TH isn't a pocket QB, things will change for the better. If you want to kick the guy when he's down, well thats you...

 

Can we talk about THIS for a second? Why in the hell can't we design plays that actually leverages his mobility for Christ's sake?  I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it. 

 

I'm aware I'm less skilled at X's & O's and firmly entrenched as a MMQB, but it seems so obvious that he's much better when we move the pocket and get him on the run. Put pressure on the defense to stop him running the ball to soften up the coverage. 

 

Just my $.02.

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Is Taylor Heinicke actually a playoff quarterback?  No.

 

Is Taylor Heinicke good enough to drag this gritty, ragtag group into Philly and cook up the Eagles?  Yes.

Not with gimpy knee this week. It will bother  him this week.

[Skinsinparadise]

The Heinicke conversation like just about all the other QB threads over the years is heated.  🔥  I get it.  We all want that franchise QB.  Some have seen it in name that guy over the years and some didn't.   Here's another round of it with a new QB. It's deja vu where each time we say this time its different.  Maybe so.  Will see.   Obviously its just opinion.   No rights.  No wrongs.  And I think we'd all love it if Heinicke was the next Dan Marino or name that great QB or even good QB.  

 

My take is best explained via a baseball analogy.  I see ace pitchers typically having a 90-100 MPH fastball.  Heck #2 pitching starters 88 MPH to 100 MPH everything being equal.  I just don't typically see an ace pitcher throw it 80-83 MPH.  People using analogies of pitchers who throw it 86-87 MPH don't apply.  Yeah you can get by with having a fastball that's short of the norm but I don't think to this degree where its an 80-83 heater.

 

My mind is open that maybe he's an exception to the rule.  Chad Pennington is the closest analogy that hits me.  And my thought has nothing to do with loving or hating Taylor.  Hard not to love the dude.  He's Rudy basically.  So I get why some just want to fall in love with the dude.  But my take is squarely on just the position of QB -- Heinicke's arm strength is really lacking.  Not just a little short but significantly short.   

 

We saw in on the two throws where he underthrew Terry on Sunday, one of which arguably contributed to his concussion.  And he's thrown other lobs-floater type passes that also seem like can get our receivers hurt.   Guys with distinctly subpar arm strength ala Colt McCoy, Kellen Moore -- dudes like that typically don't turn into top half of the league QBs. 

 

I am far from obsessed with arm strength.  I play it down on the draft thread when evaluating QBs.  But I do think you need a minimum threshold to be a really good QB and Heinicke IMO doesn't have that.  Now can he be that exception to the rule, the pitcher with an 82 MPH, yet becomes really good regardless.  Sure.  Anything is possible.  But I am not banking on it or just ignoring that variable as not being important.  I might blow it off to an extent if I thought he had pinpoint accuracy or had borderline pristine decision making -- but IMO that's not the case either.

 

Yes Taylor is a great guy.  He plays with great courage.  He has great pocket prescence and can make plays on the move.  He's clutch.   He has good things in the mix of the soup.  But IMO he is missing base line arm strength and his accuracy while is good is also inconsistent as is his decision making.  Every QB has weaknesses but I don't think you can easily survive when baseline arm strength is that weakness.    It's a really big weakness IMO and yeah it does show up in some games.

 

His thrown for 300 yards or more just one game this season.  I think Taylor is much better when the game isn't on his shoulders.  Let the running game take the lead -- and feed off of play action and all the misdirection that comes with their formations that also feeds off the running game.  I think Taylor for now is fine.  but unless he really burns it up in the last 4 games, I absolutely want an upgrade at QB next year.  I think Taylor is a terrific backup and spot starter.  I seriously doubt he's the answer long term at QB -- on a scale of 0-10 on that front, I am at a 0 as for thinking he's the solution.   But I love having him on the team.  And love the guy.  Again, he's Rudy.  But my sights are higher than Taylor if the goal is to finally become a consistent winner. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, LetThePointsSoar said:

 

Can we talk about THIS for a second? Why in the hell can't we design plays that actually leverages his mobility for Christ's sake?  I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it. 

 

I'm aware I'm less skilled at X's & O's and firmly entrenched as a MMQB, but it seems so obvious that he's much better when we move the pocket and get him on the run. Put pressure on the defense to stop him running the ball to soften up the coverage. 

 

Just my $.02.

 

Because there are trade offs when you do that. The trade off with roll-outs is they effectively cut the field in half, especially for someone like Taylor who does not have the arm strength to throw to the other side of the field. And it's harder when there is no fear of a downfield threat. And exponentially harder when the run game is not going very well. I am not saying you can never do it. But there is a reason no offenses have ever jsut played a game of mostly roll outs. In the end it makes it easier for the D to defend you. 

 

I know it's popular for some to slam Scott. But he is actually doing an amazing job with what he has. He is well aware that Taylor has a weak arm. You have to be able to run the ball first. Then you can start doing some other things to get him some open WRs. Many of the WRs that looked blanketed - referring to several who were blaming lack of talent at receiver - were open when he threw but his passes float too much and consistently allowed the defenders to collapse on the ball. That's why many times you saw 2, 3 or even 4 defenders where he threw it. 

 

We will see the same game plan from here on out unless we find a way to beat it or Kyle Allen is under C. Load the box with 7 or even 8 and force Taylor to beat you deep. You leave a single high S and play that Seattle cover 3 underneath. That or some variation is what we will see. And Taylor will have to beat someone deep a few times to get them off the line. With a banged up Oline and no JDM, it will be tough, that's if he even plays. 

 

Here is a real quandary. What happens if Kyle Allen comes in and runs out the season. What do you do then? Not likely to happen but does make you wonder. 

 

 

 

[Jumbo]

i save myself a lot of sturm und drang by always being right so i never have to wonder if i am 🥸

[petey hodge]

and I'm sad that the Dallas defensive coaching staff of scientists and leading researchers skillfully created a taylored gameplan to exploit TH's weaknesses to achieve a 95% efficacy rate....

 

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by petey hodge

[skins island connection]

1 hour ago, LetThePointsSoar said:

 

Can we talk about THIS for a second? Why in the hell can't we design plays that actually leverages his mobility for Christ's sake?  I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it. 

 

I'm aware I'm less skilled at X's & O's and firmly entrenched as a MMQB, but it seems so obvious that he's much better when we move the pocket and get him on the run. Put pressure on the defense to stop him running the ball to soften up the coverage. 

 

Just my $.02.

 

 Its made me wonder as well.

 One thing about ES, there are many who have a much better knowledge and/or insight than myself, and I fully admit I am sure I am nowhere close to being right all the time, but the good thing is none of them do either.

Its kind of like sitting at the table on Thanksgiving, talking with cousins, nephews, nieces, uncles, etc about football. Everyone has an opinion and quite a few times it gives me a perspective I never thought of.

 

Like the majority, we probably have concluded that Heinicke's time here at least as a starter will be limited, but which way to go afterwards is the worm in the apple.

Personally i'd like to see him on more roll-outs by design; again, we all know he doesn't have the arm strength to make certain passes, but there are ways to utilize him in ways that can be very beneficial in the offense and can keep defenses, especially aggressive ones, on their toes guessing whats coming. when they can get to that point they've got a defense by the short curlys. 

PartyPosse is correct, a QB who has the arm to fire it into tight coverage would be nice, but right now TH isn't the guy. But, until they find this QB, this team can win with TH, but it takes an OC who is creative, and I just do not think Turner is getting the most out of TH. He's not tall, so getting him out of the way of the monsters battling up front will give him a much beytter vision of the field, although it might take away his ability to fire cross-field to an open WR, but there is still 2/3 of a field for him to work with, and I think he can thrive with movement out of the pocket.

[bowhunter]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

My take is best explained via a baseball analogy.  I see ace pitchers typically having a 90-100 MPH fastball.  Heck #2 pitching starters 88 MPH to 100 MPH everything being equal.  I just don't typically see an ace pitcher throw it 80-83 MPH.  People using analogies of pitchers who throw it 86-87 MPH don't apply.  Yeah you can get by with having a fastball that's short of the norm but I don't think to this degree where its an 80-83 heater.

So you're saying that Heinicke is Adam Liberatore. Neat analogy. Liberatore was a left handed reliever who never had smoke. He threw a hard 92-93 at times, but I've seen pitchers who had much more heat. Hence, "Lib" was drafted by the Rays in the very late rounds, sometimes struggled to even make a triple-A roster, yet rose to a brief period of fame with the Dodgers back in 2016. Why? Because he had a personna of grit (and a little intimidating meanness) when on the mound. Some batters feared him, simply because he threw as hard as he could and the batter no longer felt in control of his own destiny (or safety lol.) It wasn't the unhittable ball, it was the Libs ability to adopt the alpha male mentality. He set the Dodgers major league record for most consecutive scoreless appearances. Two years later, Lib wasn't even on a major league roster. But there was a period of time when Adam Liberatore was an athlete that his entire team could rally around, simply because he had the will.

https://www.mlb.com/news/adam-liberatore-sets-dodgers-scoreless-record-c189014356

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, bowhunter said:

So you're saying that Heinicke is Adam Liberatore. Neat analogy. Liberatore was a left handed reliever who never had smoke. He threw a hard 92-93 at times, but I've seen pitchers who had much more heat. Hence, "Lib" was drafted by the Rays in the very late rounds, sometimes struggled to even make a triple-A roster, yet rose to a brief period of fame with the Dodgers back in 2016. Why? Because he had a personna of grit (and a little intimidating meanness) when on the mound. Some batters feared him, simply because he threw as hard as he could and the batter no longer felt in control of his own destiny (or safety lol.) It wasn't the unhittable ball, it was the Libs ability to adopt the alpha male mentality. He set the Dodgers major league record for most consecutive scoreless appearances. Two years later, Lib wasn't even on a major league roster. But there was a period of time when Adam Liberatore was an athlete that his entire team could rally around, simply because he had the will.

https://www.mlb.com/news/adam-liberatore-sets-dodgers-scoreless-record-c189014356

 

Good stuff.  I am so bad with baseball now.  I haven't really followed the game much the last 20 years.  In the 80s and 90s i was a total baseball nerd but since that lost my love of the game.

 

Sticking with baseball using references I know, if Taylor had sort of like Jimmy Key or Greg Maddux level ball placement, I can maybe be talked into his ability to overcome having a below par fastball.  But he doesn't IMO.   He's decent on that front but nothing special.  For me to be talked into an 82 MPH pitcher, I'd want a dude with multiple pitches including lets say a Mariano Rivera level masterful control of a key pitch.   

 

He's a gamer of a pitcher, he plays over his head and he's fun to watch.    But tough for me to see this dude as an ace pitcher, year in and year out.  To stick with baseball, Mark Eichorn, Blue Jays reliever, didn't have a fastball, soft thrower.  But as a change of pace reliever he was hard to stop.  I can see likewise Heinicke being a change of pace guy, good spot starter, reliever in a game.  It's not that his soft throwing is a good change of pace but he has a distinct style that is different from some others QBs that I think can throw teams off if they are unprepared for it.  

 

 

9 hours ago, skins island connection said:

 

 

Like the majority, we probably have concluded that Heinicke's time here at least as a starter will be limited, but which way to go afterwards is the worm in the apple.

Personally i'd like to see him on more roll-outs by design; again, we all know he doesn't have the arm strength to make certain passes, but there are ways to utilize him in ways that can be very beneficial in the offense and can keep defenses, especially aggressive ones, on their toes guessing whats coming. when they can get to that point they've got a defense by the short curlys. 

 

When I was at the Raiders game in Vegas, I zoned in on the formations and how Turner was working them.  And I left really impressed with Turner because all the eye candy and misdirection was actually fooling me when I tried to guess where they were going with the ball.

 

It also made me realize why the running game helps Taylor so much.  In short there is so much misdirection going on with the run game that Taylor's wheel house that day, it at least so it looked to me, was when the defense was fooled that it was a run and that run was likely going in one direction but instead Taylor rolled out in the opposite direction of where the defense was cued on, so in turn the defense was misaligned --which helped open up a quick one read throw for a wide open receiver in the flat.  That seemed to be the bread and butter.  So at least in that game, Taylor rolled out plenty.

 

But the game left me thinking what if the run game isn't humming?  What if Taylor can't rely on that misdirection where the defense is fooled to set up a wide open receiver?  On another note but on the same subject, if I recall Taylor's numbers are insanely good with play action but not so much without it. 

 

I am not pretending to be any expert, I am clearly not, but from my observation Taylor's game is very predicated on teams selling out to stop the run.  Taylor has only one game with 300 plus yards.  He's not been flinging the ball nonstop where teams are cued up to stop the pass yet he kills him anyway -- the exception to that perhaps is the Atlanta game.

 

When the game has been in his hands for a late game drive to seal the game, he's been awesome.  And I think for that reason we can think that he's put the game on his shoulders.  And in that context that's true.  But overall in the course of a game, he seems one of the more dependant QBs who need other things to go his way to play well.   

 

Not saying other QBs don't need that help, too.  But some aren't as dependant as others.  Some of the 10-15 type QBs, guys like Derrick Carr and Matt Ryan can put a full game on their shoulders where they are the lead dance.  I don't see that with Taylor.  He has 4 games to convince me otherwise but that's how I see it now. 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

It's safe to say this all boils down to exactly what many of us have been saying about Taylor all along: He can't physically make all the throws necessary to be a legit NFL starter.  That has nothing to do with me wanting to be "right" about him.  I'd love to be wrong and have him transcend all that's working against him, it's just always seemed highly unlikely that's going to happen.

 

To his credit, he gets the absolute most out of what he has.  I like SIP's description as "Rudy".  I love his fire and competitiveness.  I get why some folks are really enamored with him and want to project him to be more than what he's capable of being.  What I don't get is those same people referring those of us non-believers as "haters" or that we're obsessed with arm strength as the end all be all of playing quarterback in the NFL.  There is a baseline of arm strength needed to stretch the field and fit the ball into the tight windows QB's will inevitably be forced to throw into.  We're not looking for a cannon, but we also can't have ducks dropping from the sky, putting both the ball and our pass catchers in harms way regularly.

 

When everything else is clicking on all cylinders with the running game it creates opportunities for Taylor and to his credit he's excelled when that is the case.  That's just not how you are going to win more than you lose consistently in the NFL anymore.  I've seen some folks point to Mac Jones and the Pats this season, the Travis Henry led Titans as examples of how this still works.  At times, it certainly does but eventually you have to be able to stretch the field and put a defense back on their heels a bit.  I'm sure we're going to see Mac Jones come back to earth but even his arm talent is clearly superior to TH.  Tannehill for the Titans is no world beater himself, but again his arm is clearly superior to TH.

 

I must reiterate, all of that is okay as well.  I don't have any ill-will for Taylor, which is why the arguments that I or others with similar opinions are haters, seeing what we want to see, only worried about being right, etc. is complete and utter nonsense.  What gets me are the folks that took a strong stance on Taylor having legit potential moving forward for us showing up here to tell us that it's not piss but rain pouring down our backs after bad games.  I have literally no skin in the game in regards to Taylor Heineke.  If for whatever reason he comes out against Philly and rips the ball all over the football field and continues to do so from here on out, I couldn't be more happy to eat crow about it.  

[NoCalMike]

For those making the pitcher/fastball comparison.  Yes, there is a reason most #1 aces have fastballs they routinely throw no less than 93-95mph.  Without the juice, the margin for error with every other pitch becomes razor thin.   Are you still going to get strikeouts, groundouts, & wins?  Yes, but the route to getting there is a lot more tough and you have a lot less leeway to mess up your breaking pitches if the hitters know they can sit there and layoff the slider to wait for the 89-91mph heater.  They will stop swinging at any pitch they can detect spin on the ball.

 

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

I’ve always called Taylor the wildcard for this team but I didn’t envision him being just that, in the negative sense. He played horribly on Sunday. I hope he can shake it off and get right for Philly because God knows we need it. 

 

Lets Go Taylor!! Shake it off and come out Aces on Sunday, we are rooting for you!!