Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[86 Snyder]

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Haskins wasn't the only QB they bailed on for Allen.  They did it with Cam Newton and would have done it last year with Smith if Allen hadn't gotten hurt and ended up on IR.  Rivera's comment about how Kyle Allen could have dug us out and led this team to the playoffs too alienated Smith and demonstrates the lack of objectivity they have regarding Allen.  It's not just with Haskins, this staff handles their QBs in a way that alienates them and undermines their confidence and I think I'm one of the only posters here who recognizes and acknowledges this because I was one of the only posters who actually saw value in Haskins.

 

I am not at all sure that Rivera's job would be on the line if he absolutely blew it with a prospect like Lance.  It should be.  But the organization is going through such a dramatic and unconventional restructuring and Bruce Allen got five separate tries to **** up quarterback because there was always a specific scapegoat to fire or blame.  I could see Scott Turner and Trey Lance catching all of the blame and getting fired/cut, but the rest of the structure left in place.

 

None of these scenarios are remotely similar to spending what would probably be 3 1sts to snag Lance.  It seems you are not acknowledging that Haskins AND Smith were foisted on this regime.  Of course they wanted to give the guy *they* acquired via trade a chance to prove them right...and that was just a 5th rounder.  Imagine how much more invested they would be if spending 3 1sts on Lance or Fields.

 

And I'm not sure that saying you're the only one here who recognizes them alienating QBs because your the only guy who saw value in Trashkins is the feather in the cap that you think it is.

 

Bottom line...we've had 4 QBs play games here under Rivera.  2 were acquired by him and he's gone to bat for both of em.  2 were foisted and were "alienated", which is a word and vibe I reject but ill allow it for the sake of the point.  If they trade up for a QB, they will do everything they can to make him the franchise.

 

And bringing Cam into it...lol, guy was washed.  If anything, Rivera has shown a remarkably good eye toward correctly identifying and moving on from poor options at the most important position.

[Anselmheifer]

I'm starting to feel like we should have paid two 1sts for Stafford. We'd have 5 years of excellent QB play and could actually attract free agent skill players. With this defense, we'd be relatively set. It's starting to look like we are going to miss out on all the other significant upgrades this year. 

[RWJ]

6 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

I'm starting to feel like we should have paid two 1sts for Stafford. We'd have 5 years of excellent QB play and could actually attract free agent skill players. With this defense, we'd be relatively set. It's starting to look like we are going to miss out on all the other significant upgrades this year. 

RR and Co. have a plan.  Let's see how that turns out.  

[Darth Tater]

I'd be pretty angry if we used more than our natural 1st on Lance, especially since our top guys aren't QB gurus and Lance is no day 2 project guy. Most of his college tape reminds me of RG3. BTW, if Lance was going to be available at 2 or 3 (he's almost certainly not going to fall that far), I'd love the pick.

[Thinking Skins]

Lance scares me mainly because of his running style. We've seen Kaep and Cam make a SB but we've seen Vick, RG3, Jackson, Young and Murray all come in and not do much in the playoffs. It's not to say they won't but these type of more athletic qbs are still so new and those are just the successful ones. Others have come in as lower picks and just faded. I prefer somebody who has more ability as a drop back passer that he learned in college. 

[Malapropismic Depository]

31 minutes ago, RWJ said:

RR and Co. have a plan. 

 

And systems. In place.

But you're right. Other than just systems like Nick, Ron's got a plan !

 

 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Malapropismic Depository

[Warhead36]

Josh Allen's development and ascension into MVP caliber QB has raised the stock of a guy like Trey Lance. Normally he'd never go top 10, but now everyone wants and feels like they can coach up a guy like that.

[Thinking Skins]

Just now, Warhead36 said:

Josh Allen's development and ascension into MVP caliber QB has raised the stock of a guy like Trey Lance. Normally he'd never go top 10, but now everyone wants and feels like they can coach up a guy like that.

I'm still not all in on Allen. He's looked good this year and in the playoffs but I'd like to see him continue like this before calling him a top qb just yet. Look at what happened to Wentz when we thought he arrived. I liked Allen in the draft but his accuracy scared me. Hopefully he's improved it but I'd like to see it for another year. 

[Jericho]

55 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

I'm starting to feel like we should have paid two 1sts for Stafford. We'd have 5 years of excellent QB play and could actually attract free agent skill players. With this defense, we'd be relatively set. It's starting to look like we are going to miss out on all the other significant upgrades this year. 

Five "excellent" years from Stafford seems ambitious. Possible? Yes. Likely? No. Stafford could break his back tomorrow. Stafford always seems a little nicked up. Maybe the best comparison for him is Big Ben. Ben hasn't had five excellent seasons since turning 33. I guess time will tell what the right move was.

[Burgundy Yoda]

RGIII could never avoid pressure and keep his eyes downfield. His first instinct was to run the football for a 1st down because he knew he was as fast as DBs. Although honestly, his acceleration was not nearly as good as his top end speed IMO, he wasn't twitchy in the pocket. Lance is twitchy, has a big arm, NFL body, keeps his eyes downfield even after pressure comes at him. 

 

 

 

[Burgundy Yoda]

Lance isn't perfect but the guy has so many tools to work with, and to me, his upside is worth a gamble. Just look at what Philadelphia was able to do with Jalen Hurts, who isn't half the prospect that Lance is, imagine what a player like that could do with our team and what that opens up for the offense. 

 

I don't think this team can afford to let the draft board "come to them". Sometimes you have to be aggressive and I'm 100% for trading up for Lance or Justin Fields. 

[daveakl]

4 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

It's not just with Haskins, this staff handles their QBs in a way that alienates them and undermines their confidence and I think I'm one of the only posters here who recognizes and acknowledges this because I was one of the only posters who actually saw value in Haskins.

This may be one of the most obsurd things I have read today. And I have been on Twitter and Facebook already. 

[Burgundy Yoda]

19 minutes ago, daveakl said:

This may be one of the most obsurd things I have read today. And I have been on Twitter and Facebook already. 

Honestly, I think Rivera might be too honest with the media about our QBs. The comment where he mentioned "Kyle Allen could have turned this around as well", was just totally unnecessary. Why bring Kyle Allen up out of nowhere and undermine what Alex did? I can see where someone would think that. I actually think Kyle Allen is a much better QB than Smith at this stage but he doesn't need to compare and contrast players to the media. 

 

Haskins had and still has potential but he has a work ethic and a personality issue that just isn't good for the QB position, he isn't a leader. Pittsburgh is pretty much his last shot, if he goes through Rivera and Tomlin (two guys who preach high character and work ethic), nobody else will touch him. It's ironic that Pittsburgh picked him up, as the Big Ben comparisons were thrown around a lot during the draft process. 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[daveakl]

53 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

The comment where he mentioned "Kyle Allen could have turned this around as well", was just totally unnecessary. Why bring Kyle Allen up out of nowhere and undermine what Alex did?

Question: Could you have been in this position this year right now where you are before the playoffs without Alex?

"Well, if we had a healthy Kyle Allen, I think we could've. I really do," Rivera said. "I think we could've. And a big part of the reason is because Kyle, he's very similar to Alex in terms of his abilities. He's got the same kind of arm. He makes good decisions like Alex does. He's got good footwork. I think we could've been. I do."

 

What is he supposed to say? At that point it was pretty well known that Alex wasn't coming back and Kyle was.  

Edited February 27, 2021 by daveakl

[Burgundy Yoda]

23 minutes ago, daveakl said:

Question: Could you have been in this position this year right now where you are before the playoffs without Alex?

"Well, if we had a healthy Kyle Allen, I think we could've. I really do," Rivera said. "I think we could've. And a big part of the reason is because Kyle, he's very similar to Alex in terms of his abilities. He's got the same kind of arm. He makes good decisions like Alex does. He's got good footwork. I think we could've been. I do."

 

What is he supposed to say? At that point it was pretty well known that Alex wasn't coming back and Kyle was.  

He really didn't have to say all that lol. He could have just said the team was clicking, made it easy for Alex and that he appreciates what he's done for this team. Which I think is reasonably true, our defense was a big reason for so many of our wins.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Lance isn't perfect but the guy has so many tools to work with, and to me, his upside is worth a gamble. Just look at what Philadelphia was able to do with Jalen Hurts, who isn't half the prospect that Lance is, imagine what a player like that could do with our team and what that opens up for the offense. 

 

I don't think this team can afford to let the draft board "come to them". Sometimes you have to be aggressive and I'm 100% for trading up for Lance or Justin Fields. 

But we saw Hurts and his limitations last year as well. He wasn't knocking the scoreboard on fire. He looked good in comparison to Wentz who looked shook because of the line. But his accuracy and ability to do things with his arm were limited. I agree that Lance is a better prospect than Hurts but his much better? I'll give that he has different strengths and weaknesses but he's also got such limited experience and on top of that he's more prone to running (maybe a R Wilson type but that's still putting him at risk) which means he's getting hit more and more likely to get injured. 

I just think the juice is not worth the squeeze on him. 

[Going Commando]

3 hours ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

None of these scenarios are remotely similar to spending what would probably be 3 1sts to snag Lance.  It seems you are not acknowledging that Haskins AND Smith were foisted on this regime.  Of course they wanted to give the guy *they* acquired via trade a chance to prove them right...and that was just a 5th rounder.  Imagine how much more invested they would be if spending 3 1sts on Lance or Fields.

 

And I'm not sure that saying you're the only one here who recognizes them alienating QBs because your the only guy who saw value in Trashkins is the feather in the cap that you think it is.

 

Bottom line...we've had 4 QBs play games here under Rivera.  2 were acquired by him and he's gone to bat for both of em.  2 were foisted and were "alienated", which is a word and vibe I reject but ill allow it for the sake of the point.  If they trade up for a QB, they will do everything they can to make him the franchise.

 

And bringing Cam into it...lol, guy was washed.  If anything, Rivera has shown a remarkably good eye toward correctly identifying and moving on from poor options at the most important position.

 

Thanks for allowing me to use a word that portrays the truth.  Look, I'm not trying to put some feather in my cap, I'm acknowledging a simple truth that Haskins had value because of course he did.  This fan base is pretending like he didn't because they need a scapegoat for what went so horribly wrong that isn't the guy with absolute control over everything about this football team.

 

I am not taking it for granted that this staff won't undermine and fail with the next QB prospect they get because they have done absolutely nothing to earn that benefit of the doubt.  This regime has mismanaged their QBs here from the moment they took over and we're worse now at the position than we were when they were hired.  And they've navigated us into a no man's land where we're looking at the scenarios of either going into a camp competition between a couple of UDFAs, trading assets for vet journeymen, or having to mortgage our future to roll the dice on another raw prospect.

 

I'm also not taking it for granted that if Rivera trades up for a first round QB this year and bombs with him too that he'll be held accountable for that failure.  Why would you assume that?  How long did Bruce Allen get before he was finally canned?  How many tries at QB did Gruden get?  Rivera is in total control of the organization and there is no one that can hold him accountable right now and he just hired a couple of front office employees that he can scapegoat and fire if things don't work out.

[86 Snyder]

10 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Thanks for allowing me to use a word that portrays the truth.  Look, I'm not trying to put some feather in my cap, I'm acknowledging a simple truth that Haskins had value because of course he did.  This fan base is pretending like he didn't because they need a scapegoat for what went so horribly wrong that isn't the guy with absolute control over everything about this football team.

 

I am not taking it for granted that this staff won't undermine and fail with the next QB prospect they get because they have done absolutely nothing to earn that benefit of the doubt.  This regime has mismanaged their QBs here from the moment they took over and we're worse now at the position than we were when they were hired.  And they've navigated us into a no man's land where we're looking at the scenarios of either going into a camp competition between a couple of UDFAs, trading assets for vet journeymen, or having to mortgage our future to roll the dice on another raw prospect.

 

I'm also not taking it for granted that if Rivera trades up for a first round QB this year and bombs with him too that he'll be held accountable for that failure.  Why would you assume that?  How long did Bruce Allen get before he was finally canned?  How many tries at QB did Gruden get?  Rivera is in total control of the organization and there is no one that can hold him accountable right now and he just hired a couple of front office employees that he can scapegoat and fire if things don't work out.

 

Thanks for ignoring everything I wrote.

[Darth Tater]

If you want Lance to have a decent career, you do not want him to go to a QB-needy team.  He needs to get time to learn the game, or, if he wins a starting job before year 2, you want him to win it because he was the best between a good and better option (TB is probably a good destination for him) not between bad options or the only good option.

[ODU AGGIE]

10 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

Thanks for ignoring everything I wrote.

StevieMac, I really have to agree with everything 86 is saying. Right now, it seems to me that you are so far out in left field that you are not even in the ballpark. 

[Burgundy Yoda]

46 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

But we saw Hurts and his limitations last year as well. He wasn't knocking the scoreboard on fire. He looked good in comparison to Wentz who looked shook because of the line. But his accuracy and ability to do things with his arm were limited. I agree that Lance is a better prospect than Hurts but his much better? I'll give that he has different strengths and weaknesses but he's also got such limited experience and on top of that he's more prone to running (maybe a R Wilson type but that's still putting him at risk) which means he's getting hit more and more likely to get injured. 

I just think the juice is not worth the squeeze on him. 

Hurts did have limitations, but just having that ability to run is super frustrating for defenses because they have to handicap themselves. Coming out a big issue I saw with Hurts was his release, it just seemed slow to me and I thought he had a long wind-up. It didn't even seem to be an issue or a negative that was focused on him because he did so much damage just with is feet in his rookie year, that it was enough to throw defenses off their game. He'll be able to develop his passing further because having that ability to escape the pocket and throw just makes the game so much easier for him. 

 

Lance has him beat in size, speed, and to my untrained eyes, decision-making, and arm talent. He's just a more natural thrower than Hurts. Lance threw 0 interceptions in 2019 and had 40 total TDs, that kind of decision-making can't be overlooked. He had a lot of WRs open, but if his feet were set, he was hitting them in stride at a very good rate. When he was on the run, of course his ball placement was going to take a hit and it's harder to hit them in stride, but he was hitting them and making the right reads while pressure was in his face. He isn't quite as accurate as Wilson is on the run to me though. The thing is, if he buys himself a lot of time, there are going to be WRs wide open frequently because DBs can't cover forever. 

 

I didn't notice Lance opting to run much instead of pass unless the middle of the field was wide open. A lot of his runs were designed runs for the QB. 

 

I'll also say, arm strength is not needed to be a good QB, but if you want an elite one it's necessary besides a very few amount of players that are so accurate and throw with anticipation that they can get away with it (Brady, Brees). I think Lance's arm is strong enough and his release is good enough for those Houdini-type throws. 

 

So like Hurts, he doesn't even have to be a perfect passer in season 1 because he already has an element that will assist him and make defensive coordinators adjust their gameplan, his wheels. I don't know, I'd hate for us to be "safe" and then draft someone at 19 who isn't going to make a massive difference. Honestly, what is drafting someone Christian Darrisaw going to do? Would he even be a firm upgrade over Cornelius Lucas? A MLB to replace Bostic would be nice, but we were the 2nd ranked defense last year. I think the positional upgrade would be massive from the start if we drafted someone like Lance and he'd open up doors for this offense. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[TheShredder]

Interestingly enough stats comparison.  Fitz becomes UFA mid March.

 

[Malapropismic Depository]

FCF has this great QB prospect named Manziel

 

 

 

[TheShredder]

7 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

FCF has this great QB prospect named Manziel

 

 

 

Johnny Manziel makes debut appearance in Fan Controlled league: 'Win or lose we booze'

Edited February 28, 2021 by TheShredder

[heyholetsgogrant]

6 hours ago, Darth Tater said:

I'd be pretty angry if we used more than our natural 1st on Lance, especially since our top guys aren't QB gurus and Lance is no day 2 project guy. Most of his college tape reminds me of RG3. BTW, if Lance was going to be available at 2 or 3 (he's almost certainly not going to fall that far), I'd love the pick.

That might be true, but a lot of teams are in the same boat.  Heck, the Dolphins look like they want to dump Tua and he was the 5th pick in the NFL draft a year ago!  Getting a franchise qb in the draft is trial/error and some luck. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by heyholetsgogrant