JoggingGod Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 10 minutes ago, El Mexican said: Years of mediocrity do not vanish with one notable player at QB Yeah they do actually if it’s a star QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sellersfan Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: If you are focused on Randle El then you missed my point. Maybe I should re-phrase. Take Randle El off the list and I fully agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 30 minutes ago, JoggingGod said: Yeah they do actually if it’s a star QB. I thought of posting the obvious stuff including articles (cited by coaches and personnel people) about QB being considered the most important spot in all of sports, etc. But it just hit me, why worry about debating this issue? Rivera knows what he is doing. We keep hearing they are likely targeting either a big FA QB if one makes it to FA or a QB in this draft. I seriously doubt the beat guys are wrong and Kyle and Rivera are instead talking about building up a supporting cast and worry about finding a Qb years down the road. I think its a moot converstion. I'd be shocked if Rivera doesn't pull the trigger on a QB THIS off season with a major resource -- either the top draft pick or 20 million plus of cap money for one in FA. I'd guess the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 27 minutes ago, Sellersfan said: Maybe I should re-phrase. Take Randle El off the list and I fully agree. Gotcha but my point in that mix was me flat out saying you aren't going to be stacked everywhere. I just recited who was playing, I wasn't making the case that everyone of those players was a stud. Going off on my point, this part isn't addressed to you. During Gibbs 2. Their passing weapons as a whole were decent once they landed Santana. Their running game was very good. Their defense was mostly good. Their O line was mostly good and ranked mostly well, too. In the salary cap era, you aren't going to have All Stars everywhere, even if you blow off the QB spot. You will have a weak spot or two. Even the Patriots had weaknesses. It's just about impossible to be loaded at every spot. Circiling back to the QB point, its really really really hard to find a franchise QB. It's nowhere as hard to find players at other spots. Jason Campbell's issue here wasn't that his supporting cast wasn't stellar. He had a pretty good suporting cast at least early on. Jason Campbell's issue was he wasn't very good. It's not like we are dumping our QBs and they shined elsewhere. The only time we had a killer QB in Dan's era was 2012 RG3. And yeah arguably that was the best team under Dan's reign. We had a good supporting cast but nothing crazy -- Josh Morgan was just a guy, P. Garcon was a good WR but no pro bowler. PFF ranked the O line as mediocre that year. We had Trent but they weren't stacked with a killer O line talent wise. We had a good running back. We had a mediocre at best defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mexican Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said: The only time we had a killer QB in Dan's era was 2012 RG3. And yeah arguably that was the best team under Dan's reign. We had a good supporting cast but nothing crazy -- Josh Morgan was just a guy, P. Garcon was a good WR but no pro bowler. PFF ranked the O line as mediocre that year. We had Trent but they weren't stacked with a killer O line talent wise. We had a good running back. We had a mediocre at best defense. You forgot the Brad Johnson 1999 playoff team. Beat Detriot in the first round of the playoffs. That was a very solid squad that Snyder inherited. 2012 team was more of a crystal canon (DJax and Garcon were way above average, though). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooleyfan1993 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 18 minutes ago, El Mexican said: 2012 team was more of a crystal canon (DJax and Garcon were way above average, though). DeSean Jackson didn’t arrive until 2014, you’re off by 2 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mexican Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 Just now, Cooleyfan1993 said: DeSean Jackson didn’t arrive until 2014, you’re off by 2 years Thank you, you're correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zCommander Posted November 19, 2020 Author Share Posted November 19, 2020 7 hours ago, El Mexican said: You can't have desert before soup. You build a team core, then get the QB. Where is our core right now? No high-draft QB will ever save this team from mediocrity even if he's the Joe Montana 3.0. Haskins' fiasco should have made that abundantly clear. Trying to plug holes through FA has gotten us to where we are. I hate this argument. I will enlighten you on the value of an elite QB. When you have a QB who is quick on his reads and on his feet and is able to throw efficiently then he is also able to lift the OL to another level. Sometimes it is that simple. You don't have to have a stout OL. An elite QB can make an average OL look like a SB contender. I can't even think of a team in the last 10 years that have won a SB to have an elite OL. By the way, putting Haskins in the same breath as an elite QB.... ummmm yeah no Some of us knew he wasn't an elite QB regardless of where he was picked. Your point becomes invalid because of that. Who was Joe Montana 2.0 or even 3.0? I only remember the original. There is no one like the original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sellersfan Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said: Gotcha but my point in that mix was me flat out saying you aren't going to be stacked everywhere. I just recited who was playing, I wasn't making the case that everyone of those players was a stud. Going off on my point, this part isn't addressed to you. During Gibbs 2. Their passing weapons as a whole were decent once they landed Santana. Their running game was very good. Their defense was mostly good. Their O line was mostly good and ranked mostly well, too. In the salary cap era, you aren't going to have All Stars everywhere, even if you blow off the QB spot. You will have a weak spot or two. Even the Patriots had weaknesses. It's just about impossible to be loaded at every spot. Circiling back to the QB point, its really really really hard to find a franchise QB. It's nowhere as hard to find players at other spots. Jason Campbell's issue here wasn't that his supporting cast wasn't stellar. He had a pretty good suporting cast at least early on. Jason Campbell's issue was he wasn't very good. It's not like we are dumping our QBs and they shined elsewhere. The only time we had a killer QB in Dan's era was 2012 RG3. And yeah arguably that was the best team under Dan's reign. We had a good supporting cast but nothing crazy -- Josh Morgan was just a guy, P. Garcon was a good WR but no pro bowler. PFF ranked the O line as mediocre that year. We had Trent but they weren't stacked with a killer O line talent wise. We had a good running back. We had a mediocre at best defense. Great points. I think an extension of one of your points is that RG3 and the RPO was so deadly it took an average RB in Morris and made him great. The salary cap era will prevent a team of all stars. Just look at all the Patriot teams. Not stacked rosters by any means. At best you may get a dominate team on 1 side of the ball like the 2000 Ravens or 2007 Patriots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrepDC Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 We need to have a GM to balance out Rivera in all this decision making. The recent examples of a Coach having GM control have been failures. I'd like us to not set Ron and the team up like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartyPosse Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Sellersfan said: Great points. I think an extension of one of your points is that RG3 and the RPO was so deadly it took an average RB in Morris and made him great. The salary cap era will prevent a team of all stars. Just look at all the Patriot teams. Not stacked rosters by any means. At best you may get a dominate team on 1 side of the ball like the 2000 Ravens or 2007 Patriots. Health and balance are key. If you're unable to dominate one side of the ball in historical fashion (like the two teams you mentioned), then your best bet is to find as much balance as possible so that if your strong side struggles you have confidence in knowing the weaker side could pick up the slack. Easier said than done, I know. Same with depth. Injuries happen to everyone but the winners either have incredible luck with injuries or depth from incredible scouting. IMO you have as much chance at winning if the 53rd player on your roster can start elsewhere as you can if your top player is the best in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 9 hours ago, El Mexican said: You forgot the Brad Johnson 1999 playoff team. Beat Detriot in the first round of the playoffs. That was a very solid squad that Snyder inherited. 2012 team was more of a crystal canon (DJax and Garcon were way above average, though). D Jax actualy helps make my point because he actually wasn't on the 2012 team. Josh Morgan was the #2 on the 2012 team. That wasn't a stacked receiver corp to say the least. O line so so. Their defense was ranked 28th. It was RG3 and a good running game. Supporting cast overall subpar. It wasn't RG3 taking over a stacked roster. The team stunk in 2011. Yet in one fell swoop they became good within one year. A feat that you seem to suggest here is a pipe dream type of feat to turn a bad team until a good team in one season. Well we did it. D. Jax was on the 2014 team which had stinky QB play and the team in turn stank. Kirk had a good season in 2015. Their running game mostly wasn't good under Jay, neither was the defense. He had good receivers but that wasn't a stacked roster. The team sort of reflected for the most part Kirk's play -- it was good, not great. I get your point that you need more than just a QB. But a QB changes everything. Those guys are VERY hard to find. Finding a D-Jax isn't terribly hard. To your point the Cardnals as an example drafted Kyler Murray and weren't instantly great. But it just took them a year to do it. They found the hard guy to find first. They swung and missed with Josh Rosen but had an opportunity to fix that and they did. Bringing that same point here, if for example they can draft Fields or Wilson and they love those guys, you do it. You don't just assume that hey every draft is easy to find great QBs and if we don't get one this time, how hard is it to find that dude next time? So dress up the house to the hilt so when they come they will be perfectly set. Because finding a franchise QB is yawn level easy. Every team gets that dude when they are good and ready for one. The NFL just doesn't seem to work that way. Yeah if we are talking a good but not great Qb like Brad Johnson you need a more loaded roster. But if you find a great QB which is a foreign concept for a WFT fan (we don't do great QBs, that's for other teams) they can turn a team around in one season. Or heck maybe 2 seasons. But it can happen fast. As you know, its not like we only have one pick in the draft or only allowed to sign just one player in FA. It's not some binary task where you can either address QB and add no supporting cast or just add supporting cast and no QB. You can do both. So the question isn't QB or supporting cast. It's much simpler than that. Do you use your top pick for QB and the rest on supporting cast or a chunk of your salary cap and the whole draft on supporting cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 8 hours ago, Sellersfan said: Great points. I think an extension of one of your points is that RG3 and the RPO was so deadly it took an average RB in Morris and made him great. The salary cap era will prevent a team of all stars. Just look at all the Patriot teams. Not stacked rosters by any means. At best you may get a dominate team on 1 side of the ball like the 2000 Ravens or 2007 Patriots. Yep, we can produce a shopping list of lets say 6 major needs but no way we fix all of them with studs, its just not how the NFL works today. The biggest cheat code is to get a young cheap great QB because it allows you cap flexibility. I think some WFT fans are so accustomed to the idea that you needed a stacked roster for their QB to thrive but I gather that's because we haven't really had a great QB in close to forever. Joey T was good not great. Doug and Rypein were good but just had a flash of time where they were great. Kirk was good. Brad Johnson was good. The flash of greatness was RG3 in 2012, that's really it. The WFT doesn't do Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Kyler Murray, Russell Wilson type QBs. We don't play in that sand box so maybe its hard to relate to how they can elevate a team. If we had Russell Wilson right now even with this cast, IMO we would be good. But yeah if we go with a Brad Johnson type -- we wouldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Green Fan Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 12 hours ago, El Mexican said: Sample size is too small right now. Not enough games have been played to elevate those teams from perennial bottom dwellers to contenders. Until then, we'll see. All I'm reading from various posters around here is that the "right" QB will change the entire franchise. Yeah right. Keep spicing that kool aid. Years of mediocrity do not vanish with one notable player at QB. Not here at least. I am sooo tired of this argument. Arizona and Cleveland are now most certainly contenders after being losers for generations, Miami may be as well. Just look at the contenders year after year, then look at the perennial losers. What's the common theme? The contenders with very few exceptions nearly all have good QBs. The losers with very few exception do not have a franchise QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 31 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said: I am sooo tired of this argument. Arizona and Cleveland are now most certainly contenders after being losers for generations, Miami may be as well. Just look at the contenders year after year, then look at the perennial losers. What's the common theme? The contenders with very few exceptions nearly all have good QBs. The losers with very few exception do not have a franchise QB. And I add it gives a boost to the fans. Not that fans should matter in that way but this franchise as Peter King put it is bleeding fans. I am close to a few Dolphins fans, all of whom have this woes me vibe to them for years similar to our team. Now, with Tua, their attitude about their team have done a 180. I've talked about it on other threads and that is fighting to keep my kids WFT fans. My son plays Madden and watches football shows with me. The WFT isn't a hyped team. It's not a team that's talked about. His 2nd favorite team has been the Cards. He watched with me the Cards comeback against Buffalo. Now I noticed this week he's playing the Cards on Madden versus the WFT. I might need to work on him some more. 😀 But in short with the younger fans or attracting yournger fans, it would help to have a Kyler Murray, Russell Wilson type of Qb for a change that wouldn't just improve our odds to be a consistent winner but also help make us a bit more exciting and relevant. Finding the next Brad Johnson i don't think will do it. This franchise IMO isn't in the same spot it was in even 5 years ago. It's a floundering and desperately needs a jolt. The QB is the face of the franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 This franchise is on its last legs. The Rivera era fails; that’s it for Dan. He will be left with a team that draws a couple of thousand actual fans. The rest will be fans of the other team. No one will give a damn what this Team does. So, Rivera must succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mexican Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 10 hours ago, zskins said: By the way, putting Haskins in the same breath as an elite QB.... ummmm yeah no Some of us knew he wasn't an elite QB regardless of where he was picked. Your point becomes invalid because of that. He's "elite" in draft pedigree, not in real life play. He will always be remembered as a first round bust around here. That's what I meant. Betting the house on another top-pick QB is a terrible strategy if the entire team is full of holes. This season is a wake up call. We're not competitive. Time to stop the fanboyinsm and stare at the ugly truth straight in the eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mexican Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 16 hours ago, mistertim said: We had an excellent OL throughout the 2000s and where did that get us? If you need a QB and you have a chance to draft a blue chip prospect, you do it. No other position or single player on a football team has anything even close to the kind of impact that a top QB does. We also need to stop with the sunk costs fallacy of "Well we bombed on our QB picks in the past so let's not make the same mistake again." We are not even in the same league as those late 90s early 2000s Redskins teams. Sorry. They had solid QB play where veterans delivered. The real problem came when we started drafting high-draft QBs that supossedly would "elevate" our team play, like Ramsey and Campbell. How did that turn out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 25 minutes ago, El Mexican said: He's "elite" in draft pedigree, not in real life play. He will always be remembered as a first round bust around here. That's what I meant. Betting the house on another top-pick QB is a terrible strategy if the entire team is full of holes. This season is a wake up call. We're not competitive. Time to stop the fanboyinsm and stare at the ugly truth straight in the eye. I’m not sure you have your finger on the pulse re: where the ES collection thinks the team is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mexican Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 15 hours ago, justice98 said: Not to mention, QB is only one pick. Taking a QB in the first or 2nd doesnt preclude you from otherwise building through the draft. It's one selection. It's one selection that determines every selection after it. If the team is infatuated with another rookie QB and drafts him that can only mean they consider that spot more pressing than other positions. Problem is, we have severe talent problems at other important spots. We'll see I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 1 minute ago, El Mexican said: We are not even in the same league as those late 90s early 2000s Redskins teams. Sorry. They had solid QB play where veterans delivered. The real problem came when we started drafting high-draft QBs that supossedly would "elevate" our team play, like Ramsey and Campbell. How did that turn out? "Delivered" what, man? In the decade of the 2000s we had 2 winning seasons and won 1 playoff game. Throughout the 2000s we had a really good OL, good running game for the most part, and good defenses for the most part. We never had anything above an average QB. You seem to be mistaking the process or idea of drafting QBs high with the QBs not being successful. Ramsey and Campbell were both 1st rounders who ended up being at best mediocre. That doesn't mean you just stop drafting QBs high. That's such a sunk costs fallacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mexican Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said: It's not some binary task where you can either address QB and add no supporting cast or just add supporting cast and no QB. You can do both. So the question isn't QB or supporting cast. It's much simpler than that. Do you use your top pick for QB and the rest on supporting cast or a chunk of your salary cap and the whole draft on supporting cast. All good arguments, I agree. The problem is basing your entire Redskins analysis on the novelty of RG3. That 2012 dream season was basically a one-trick pony. Teams adjusted and he failed miserably after the injury. He's extravagant play made him susceptible to that risk and it came sooner than later. Also, can't forget Cousins saved his butt a couple of times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo#44 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 15 minutes ago, El Mexican said: We are not even in the same league as those late 90s early 2000s Redskins teams. Sorry. They had solid QB play where veterans delivered. We did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins199021 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 I am on the Zach Wilson bandwagon. He definitely has raw talent for the NFL Just hard t tell what reads he actually makes in the offense he is in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 58 minutes ago, El Mexican said: All good arguments, I agree. The problem is basing your entire Redskins analysis on the novelty of RG3. That 2012 dream season was basically a one-trick pony. Teams adjusted and he failed miserably after the injury. He's extravagant play made him susceptible to that risk and it came sooner than later. Also, can't forget Cousins saved his butt a couple of times. Why do your posts always look like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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