KDawg Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 52 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said: Kyle needs to go. Ron needs to hire someone else to be the personnel guy. As for fans of the team; Dan is on his last legs. The Rivera era fails and there won’t be more than a couple of thousand fans. This is his last shot to turn things around. Don’t understand the Kyle point. There will never just be a couple thousand fans. Most of us are hanging on regardless. But anyone who wants to jump off - I get it. But if this team ever recovers, probably should stay off. And if they don’t, those of us who hung out are truly the ones with egg on our faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashburn Dave Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said: Well you are posting on the team board, a team without a name, so there's that. If you chose to move on would it be because of the name or the losing? When you have been a diehard fan that bleeds burgundy and gold for 60 years it is not easy to give it up just like that obviously. If I move on it will be because of everything that's happened since Dan took over. Maybe the name change was the final straw. The team is losing fans like me IMO. I was a season ticket holder for 30 years and spent ten's of thousands of dollars on tix and merchandise over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 2 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said: Kyle needs to go. Ron needs to hire someone else to be the personnel guy. As for fans of the team; Dan is on his last legs. The Rivera era fails and there won’t be more than a couple of thousand fans. This is his last shot to turn things around. No he doesn't fans are fans.. people are holding on post name change.. something we did not expect to ever happen. Some fans will remain, some wont. I dont understand 'last shot.' What happens if he doesn't? Fan participation does not dictate the owner to sell. The team is about to play on one of the biggest regular season games of the season regarding viewership and revenue... Thanksgiving @ Dallas. The team is also building differently than we've ever seen and we could argue the team ALREADY has more 'blue chip' talent on this roster than it's had in the last 30 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 ...Everyone understands positional value in the NFL, and although it's often discussed during the pre-draft process, it's not considered enough by teams and those analyzing the draft. And while it's just one example, the 2020 season is reminding us that however important you feel the quarterback position is, in actuality, it's even more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 and if they weren't sold on Tua or Herbert? They may have ultimately been wrong there, but we're 11 games in (3 for Tua)... they may still be right. Too early to tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 6 minutes ago, OVCChairman said: and if they weren't sold on Tua or Herbert? They may have ultimately been wrong there, but we're 11 games in (3 for Tua)... they may still be right. Too early to tell I posted it not because I think they should have been sold on Tua or Herbert. I loved Tua but have concerns and still do about his durabiity. But I do agree that the position value is big time and above any other which I took as the main point of that article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 Just now, Skinsinparadise said: I posted it not because I think they should have been sold on Tua or Herbert. I loved Tua but have concerns and still do about his durabiity. But I do agree that the position value is big time and above any other which I took as the main point of that article. I know, i wasn't trying to debunk it, i wasn't arguing with you... just an alternate option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 It seems clear that we thought Burrow and Chase were basically assessed as certified great players in the making, without fault almost. All boxes ticked. Complete prospect. Picking #2 that was the remit with one or the other guaranteed to be available. Tua, yeah maybe Rivera was into him but not enough at #2. Interesting to keep that perspective in mind for this draft, depending on where we pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartyPosse Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 5 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said: I'm assuming you meant when Hackenberg signed with Penn State because nobody thought the Jets got a franchise QB in the 2nd round with a guy who hadn't been good since high school. No, I meant after his Freshman year or even his Junior year at Penn he was touted as the next big thing. The year he declared certainly didn't do him any favors. 4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said: Why was he drafted in the 2nd round, then? your point seems to be here about college QBs who were hyped earlly but no so much later in their college career. Locker would fit that, too. So would other dudes like Matt Barkley. But none of it has anything to do with the argument in play I'm just saying for a while in College he was touted to be the next big thing. My point being is no matter how hyped they are in college, whether freshman or senior, it really doesn't necessarily translate to the NFL. Winston, the only questions there were about him were about his maturity thanks to an affinity for crab legs. There are plenty of guys like Herbert that came out with expectations and didn't live up to them. Hell, pick a USC QB at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 23 minutes ago, PartyPosse said: I'm just saying for a while in College he was touted to be the next big thing. My point being is no matter how hyped they are in college, whether freshman or senior, it really doesn't necessarily translate to the NFL. Winston, the only questions there were about him were about his maturity thanks to an affinity for crab legs. There are plenty of guys like Herbert that came out with expectations and didn't live up to them. Hell, pick a USC QB at this point. Agree. And of course. Who is arguing though otherwise? The debate I was engaged in is what are the odds of your success taking a QB in the top of the draft when said QB or top 2 are regarded as freaks like this season or taking someone else later in the draft. If your point is we have an equal chance of success by taking someone else later in the draft. Then we disagree. Otherwise I don't disagree with your point nor do I think anyone else here does either. As to there are no sure fire prospects, hyped or not. Yep, of course. If it was that easy where we knew any player in advance let alone a QB is sure fire then you'd have no busts early in the draft at all. There were more questions about Winston beyond his maturity but I have no desire to argue it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartyPosse Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: Agree. And of course. Who is arguing though otherwise? The debate I was engaged in is what are the odds of your success taking a QB in the top of the draft when said QB or top 2 are regarded as freaks like this season or taking someone else later in the draft. If your point is we have an equal chance of success by taking someone else later in the draft. Then we disagree. Otherwise I don't disagree with your point nor do I think anyone else here does either. Well, let me ask you this. The top ten QBs in the NFL currently, how many were touted as the 1 or 2 best in their draft class? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 5 minutes ago, PartyPosse said: Well, let me ask you this. The top ten QBs in the NFL currently, how many were touted as the 1 or 2 best in their draft class? I guess this is the point I was trying to make earlier... most are the best 1 or 2 QBS in their class, but there are enough that were not considered the 1 or 2 best PLAYERS in their class. Ryan went 2, Ben went 11, Brees - 33, Mahomes - 10, Watson - 12, Rodgers - 24, Josh Allen - 7. Not that these are the top 10 you're referencing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartyPosse Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 I just feel a QB's success, more than any other position, is 85% contingent on the team he goes to. Even last year, this team wasn't in a position to use their only pick in the first 70 on a QB with how much the rest of the team is lacking. They said let's see what Haskins can do with this debacle and he's either gonna sink or swim but at least we'd have a fairly good idea who he is. All those here who claim they already know don't know ****. No one knew. If the coaching staff didn't then i'm not going to trust a bunch of armchair QBs. You may have an idea, an expectation, but as we've learned from every draft, ideas and reality rarely mesh. You could of course say, well Miami or LAC don't have much, Miami literally had 132 draft picks this year. They created a structure with the QB they drafted. Hell, the team was 3-1 in their past 4 prior to Tua coming in so it was clear they'd figured some things out. Chargers had two upper echelon WRs and one of the top 5 TEs in the game not to mention Ekeler before he got hurt. They also traded for Turner and signed Bulaga so they already built something in place for Herbert to thrive. Neither of those QBs would be experiencing anything close to the level of success they're having had they been drafted here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Green Fan Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 1 hour ago, PartyPosse said: No, I meant after his Freshman year or even his Junior year at Penn he was touted as the next big thing. The year he declared certainly didn't do him any favors. I'm just saying for a while in College he was touted to be the next big thing. My point being is no matter how hyped they are in college, whether freshman or senior, it really doesn't necessarily translate to the NFL. Winston, the only questions there were about him were about his maturity thanks to an affinity for crab legs. There are plenty of guys like Herbert that came out with expectations and didn't live up to them. Hell, pick a USC QB at this point. Saying he was good as a freshman is not like hyping him when he was entering the draft. By the time he was drafted many questioned him, many were critical of the Jets' selection at the time. Not sure how your point is relevant as we discuss prospects that are entering the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 1 hour ago, PartyPosse said: Well, let me ask you this. The top ten QBs in the NFL currently, how many were touted as the 1 or 2 best in their draft class? It's not relevant to my point. Don't know why the debate has to go in circles. It's very specific. I answered your question in my previous posts as why its the case. Yes more players beats less players. But it has nothing to do with reality. It's not: If the option was we can take one QB high in the draft or you have the option to get every other QB that falls after them combined. If that's how it worked then your point is spot on. But the reality is this: You have the option to take the top QB in the draft and specifically in a draft where the top prospect is considered a freak or instead you have another shot at the lottery somewhere else in the draft. Is it realiy that much of a debate? We all understand there are no guarantees. But its about playing the odds. Simple. Lets say we are playing power ball lottery and for argument's sake there is one ball that is hyped as the more likely to win. And we got 15 balls in total. The option isn't about that one touted ball versus you instead having everyone of the other 14 balls. It's the one touted ball versus any other ball you can choose of the 14 left. So the debate is the one ball versus the other ball. Not one ball versus 14. 😀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowhunter Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 I guess my question is if RR is the type that would allow his team to tank (for the long term success,) or if he is more likely to continue to inspire the team to play harder and subsequently gain a few wins that would be detrimental to the draft status. #3 this year looks to have a few great options *cough Wilson. My guess is that he's more likely to push for harder play than tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Green Fan Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 51 minutes ago, PartyPosse said: I just feel a QB's success, more than any other position, is 85% contingent on the team he goes to. Even last year, this team wasn't in a position to use their only pick in the first 70 on a QB with how much the rest of the team is lacking. They said let's see what Haskins can do with this debacle and he's either gonna sink or swim but at least we'd have a fairly good idea who he is. All those here who claim they already know don't know ****. No one knew. If the coaching staff didn't then i'm not going to trust a bunch of armchair QBs. You may have an idea, an expectation, but as we've learned from every draft, ideas and reality rarely mesh. You could of course say, well Miami or LAC don't have much, Miami literally had 132 draft picks this year. They created a structure with the QB they drafted. Hell, the team was 3-1 in their past 4 prior to Tua coming in so it was clear they'd figured some things out. Chargers had two upper echelon WRs and one of the top 5 TEs in the game not to mention Ekeler before he got hurt. They also traded for Turner and signed Bulaga so they already built something in place for Herbert to thrive. Neither of those QBs would be experiencing anything close to the level of success they're having had they been drafted here. By definition the team picking first is the worst team in the league. That applied to Cleveland, Arizona, and now Cincy and all 3 QBs have played well since entering the league. It also applied to most every other QB taken first overall who have succeeded and there are plenty of examples of that. While there should be no question a QB drafted by Andy Reid will have a better situation I never believed that the situation was 85% of the reason a player succeeded or failed. Plenty of good teams have had rookie QBs fail too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zCommander Posted November 20, 2020 Author Share Posted November 20, 2020 4 minutes ago, bowhunter said: I guess my question is if RR is the type that would allow his team to tank (for the long term success,) or if he is more likely to continue to inspire the team to play harder and subsequently gain a few wins that would be detrimental to the draft status. #3 this year looks to have a few great options *cough Wilson. My guess is that he's more likely to push for harder play than tank. He is still trying to win the division...well at least that is what he has said. A coach will never inspire his players to lose on purpose. He will lose any respect he has with the team. But I still want us to keep on losing though. Hoping we still get that new and shiny QB next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Green Fan Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 1 minute ago, zskins said: He is still trying to win the division...well at least that is what he has said. A coach will never inspire his players to lose on purpose. He will lose any respect he has with the team. But I still want us to keep on losing though. Hoping we still get that new and shiny QB next year. Yeah I'm hoping an team steps up and wins a few games to put this division title nonsense to bed. Then Ron may be able to return to Dwayne to get another look, I think many of us would like to see that before a final decision is reached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo#44 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said: I posted it not because I think they should have been sold on Tua or Herbert. I loved Tua but have concerns and still do about his durabiity. But I do agree that the position value is big time and above any other which I took as the main point of that article. These myopic, instant-reaction takes are so irritating. Yes, the QB is vitally important--but you know what comes every year? The draft. This is why I want to tank the tankiest tank that ever did tank. We have Chase Young. There is no one like him in this draft. We have a chance at a blue-chip QB in Fields. We can end up in a better position with a top DE and QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 5 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said: These myopic, instant-reaction takes are so irritating. Yes, the QB is vitally important--but you know what comes every year? The draft. This is why I want to tank the tankiest tank that ever did tank. We have Chase Young. There is no one like him in this draft. We have a chance at a blue-chip QB in Fields. We can end up in a better position with a top DE and QB. Sure, I agree. I loved Tua. But I also loved Chase. I'd take a healthy Tua over Chase because of the value of the QB spot. But healthy is the operative word. The thing with Tua that remains is he's an injury prone QB in general so the jury is far from out on him. But I do agree with the thesis that a great QB can change a franchise's trajection faster than any other spot. I actually like Fields over Tua for two reasons: durability and mobility. But I admit I am fearful we might win a couple of games more that almost for sure would take us out of the running for Fields and might for Wilson, too. Fingers crossed we end up with one of them and preferrably Fields. 😀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo#44 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: I actually like Fields over Tua for two reasons: durability and mobility. But I admit I am fearful we might win a couple of games more that almost for sure would take us out of the running for Fields and might for Wilson, too. Fingers crossed we end up with one of them and preferrably Fields. 😀 I hope we don't win another game, and we need Jax to pull one out of their ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 Just now, Riggo#44 said: I hope we don't win another game, and we need Jax to pull one out of their ass. IMO this game coming up is the most dangerous one on that front. I watched much of the Cincy-Pitts game and they looked awful. The other 2 would be the Dallas and Carolina game. Dallas might be bent on revenge and you got a short week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo#44 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: IMO this game coming up is the most dangerous one on that front. I watched much of the Cincy-Pitts game and they looked awful. The other 2 would be the Dallas and Carolina game. Dallas might be bent on revenge and you got a short week. Dallas in Thanksgiving is almost a guaranteed loss. Carolina I think is better than us. Moses at LT and Sharpe at RT this give Cincy the edge, I think. Pittsburg is bound to have a shart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skin'emAlive Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 I am almost certain we win vs Cincinnati and Dallas. We are not as bad as our record, imo. Alex is not going the entire season without a win. Jax won’t win another game this season. So I think we have to be realistic about our options between #3-6. We have a high 2nd, and possibly two high 3rds. Imo, we go Sewell and then perhaps look at Trask later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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