Next Day Thread (Same Day Edition): WFT vs. Arizona

[KDawg]

Offensive Summary:

Opening kickoff was fielded by Sims. Will need a look back but it looks like it would have went out of bounds. And that set the tone for the opening offensive and defensive possession. To top that off, the return fumble from Sims was a backbreaker. Our offensive special teams and offense in general are major issues, to state the absolute obvious. 

 

The offensive line is absolutely putrid. They don't communicate, they have sloppy feet, they don't anchor well, I didn't see much from them in run blocking, and they are poor pass protectors. Morgan Moses is the best player on the offensive line. And honestly, at this point, I think he may be the only guy that doesn't need to be replaced. Roullier could be an acceptable keep, but if Ismael is similar as a player, he's the guy to take over. That's up to the coaches to evaluate. 

 

Haskins looked like Patrick Ramsey and Jason Campbell. He wasn't sure whether to throw the ball away, run with it, stand in the pocket, or just fall down and cower in fear. Most of that isn't his fault. But some of it is. Some of the communication issues on the OL could very well be on him... He doesn't seem to have full command of the offense or protection concepts (this is conjecture, I don't know if he does or does not). A franchise level QB understands protections and can make even a very bad OL look okay. Not good, mind you, but okay.

 

When he had time he threw the ball with inaccuracy. His poor mechanics reared their head more than a few times.

 

I don't think its fair to fully judge Haskins based on a performance where the line did him no favors. But I also think it's becoming evident that he is not a top level franchise quarterback. He's a guy who needs developmental time and surrounding help in order to do that. This team has done him no favors, but he hasn't mastered the intricacies of quarterback play and he has specialized in quarterback play. 

 

To be clear, Haskins has talent, and there's no reason he can't develop... But the circumstances here are like setting a video game to ultra hard mode and the guy playing the game is a great player but he is worried about the Dorito dust on his fingers and hesitates a bit too much because he doesn't want the grease on his controller. 

 

At some point, he needs to overcome the obstacles in his path if he is what many want him to be. He hasn't shown the ability to do that on the field... And he's played enough that glimpses into that reality would have been seen to this point. 

 

In order to mask a bad OL into one that resembles average, you have to be one of two things... You have to have quick processing skills, good feet and the ability to see the field well. Arizona has a guy like that. Seattle has a guy like that. Baltimore, Green Bay... Heck, New England has a guy like that. Even Dallas has a guy more in that mold. If Haskins is going to be successful he needs the surrounding talent to be much better than it is, especially up front. It's just the mold of the quarterbacks. Haskins is more mobile than the pocket passers of yesteryear, for certain... But he is the modern day NFL equivalent of a pocket passer.

 

The other thing he could have to mask a bad offensive line is  a better handle on protections to mask the OL from a pocket passer perspective. Calling out protections, blitzes, fronts. Haskins isn't there yet. 

 

I'd like to see him realize that not every pass has to be fired from a howitzer. Sometimes it's okay to use the potato gun. He did that in the 4th on the lob to Sims. Just need more of that. 

 

Haskins smiling post game shows he still has a ways to go from a maturity standpoint, but I won't be too harsh there. 

 

Trying to stay positive a little... Antonio Gibson has strong legs and good burst when he sees daylight. He needs work on reading his blocks and defensive movement, but he hasn't carried the ball a lot over the course of his career and that will come with time. I get faster, more well rounded Stephen Davis vibes from him as a runner. 

 

And of course the biggest positive this team has on offense: Terry McLaurin. We knew already, but he is a legit #1 receiver in the NFL. He was last year's "Next Day Thread" MVP. He is going to make a run at it again. 

 

Defensive Summary:

Daron Payne is a good run stuffer and decent against the pass. Matty I., solid as always. 

 

Chase Young rushes... if he sees he's not going to get home he peels and runs down field and makes tackles on receivers 10-15 yards downfield. Absolutely refreshing to see. Watching him run down the field tackling receivers 10-15 yards downfield was absolutely refreshing.

 

As the most critical guy of linebackers on this team, Kevin Pierre-Louis had a good game today. He's a guy that, if he had decent guys surrounding him, could absolutely move forward as a starter on this team in the base 4-3 look. Problem is Bostic and SDH have not shown that same aptitude, in my opinion. 

 

Landon Collins is good in run support, and playing as a deep safety playing downhill in pass coverage. If he has to play in a backpedal, he's in trouble. We saw it on the early touchdown. Apke won the starting job at FS, but that leaves me to wonder if his competition just wasn't up to snuff and he's so gifted athletically it was hard to pass on him given the makeup of the roster. 

 

Overall Summary:

More positive: The coaches make positive adjustments at halftime. That's new this year and its fun to expect them. 

 

For what it's all worth: I still think this team is on the right track. This was a not so fun game, but it was something a lot of us saw coming. This team is rebuilding from an absolute mess of an organization. It's not just the on-field stuff, but the organization in totality. And of course, there are still some lingering issues in the air. But a new coaching staff, new front office, new concepts and ideas and new attitudes. 

 

It's fair to say this team isn't a great football team, but its also fair to say that this is a process and things take some time. I like what Rivera is trying to accomplish. 

 

Even the challenge for too many players on the field was a different move. It was outside the box, showed he's familiar with the rules and the coaching staff is on the ball with this stuff. It seems small, but its a big, big, big difference. 

 

Not calling timeouts at the end of the game is a very tough look. My guess, based on conversations in coaching circles (not pros), is that the game was over in that situation unless the team forced a turnover... And by using your timeouts, you slow the offense, make them less aggressive and if you manage to get a turnover you're out of timeouts. By keeping them, you open the slight chance to have a chance should that miracle occur. It's unorthodox, most coaches wouldn't do it due to the idea of being lambasted by the media and fans for giving up. And you can't fault people for seeing it that way... Tradition says there's a way to do things. And while I've had those conversations, I've never actually seen it employed in any games I've coached in.

 

But when you're Ron Rivera, you're paid millions to take some heat to do what you feel is best for the team in the heat of the moment. And he's going to take some heat. But, to be clear, I don't think it was indicative of him giving up. 

 

Haven't said much about Arizona, so I will here... They are really good. Murray is the real deal, Fitzgerald still has some gas, their line is good enough to look average, they run block relatively well, DHop is among the top receivers in football, their tight ends play with heart. They have a strong defense. Good rush. Good pursuit. Watch out for them all season... I think they're going to make some real noise this year. 

 

 

Studs/Duds:

*** - Terry McLaurin - The bright spot of the offense. He alone is certainly not enough. But he's a good player. Last year's "Next Day Thread" MVP

** - Chase Young - downfield on passes making tackles on most passes, working hard to get home on an elusive, good quarterback. 

* - Antonio Gibson - Showed his burst on that TD run. Strong, powerful legs. 

-  Brandon Scherff. Was not playing well prior to injury. Line played a bit better since the injury (also appears there was a game plan change)

 -   Geron Christian.

  - Steven Sims - Backbreaking fumble, fielding the kick off that looked like it was going out of bounds... (to be confirmed).

 

 

Season Totals:

4 * - Chase Young

3 * - Ryan Kerrigan

3 * - Terry McLaurin

1* - Antonio Gibson

1 *- Fabian Moreau

1 *- Jimmy Moreland

1* - Matt Ioannidis

1  - Secondary as a whole.

1  - Brandon Scherff

2  - Linebackers as a whole.

2   - Geron Christian

3  - Offensive Line as a whole.

3  - Steven Sims 

[hail2skins]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Not calling timeouts at the end of the game is a very tough look. My guess, based on conversations in coaching circles (not pros), is that the game was over in that situation unless the team forced a turnover... And by using your timeouts, you slow the offense, make them less aggressive and if you manage to get a turnover you're out of timeouts. By keeping them, you open the slight chance to have a chance should that miracle occur. It's unorthodox, most coaches wouldn't do it due to the idea of being lambasted by the media and fans for giving up. And you can't fault people for seeing it that way... Tradition says there's a way to do things. And while I've had those conversations, I've never actually seen it employed in any games I've coached in.

 

But when you're Ron Rivera, you're paid millions to take some heat to do what you feel is best for the team in the heat of the moment. And he's going to take some heat. But, to be clear, I don't think it was indicative of him giving up. 

I don't see what's so difficult about the situation. If you are down by two scores midway through the 4th quarter and the other team has the ball, you HAVE to start using timeouts. The other team has to run a play, and you just don't know what a turnover can occur.  But yet I see this screwed up so often. We accept mediocre thinking way too much overall. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, hail2skins said:

I don't see what's so difficult about the situation. If you are down by two scores midway through the 4th quarter and the other team has the ball, you HAVE to start using timeouts. The other team has to run a play, and you just don't know what a turnover can occur.  But yet I see this screwed up so often. We accept mediocre thinking way too much overall. 

I agree. If you’re going to use them, midway in the 4th is the time. And if there’s a good criticism wave to ride, this is it.

[Veretax]

WHen they made that one conversion, You felt they were getting a field goal.  Look I get it, you'd maybe prefer the team fight, but what if we got guys hurt?    I'm not upset at this.  We were smoked in the first half of this game.  This team has room to grow, lets move on.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Veretax said:

WHen they made that one conversion, You felt they were getting a field goal.  Look I get it, you'd maybe prefer the team fight, but what if we got guys hurt?    I'm not upset at this.  We were smoked in the first half of this game.  This team has room to grow, lets move on.

And this is why I don’t think the timeout situation is something to dwell on. Lots of factors. Fans/media will, though. Coping mechanism. Something to pick apart with a franchise that has been poor.

 

And Rivera just took a lot of negative attention off the team. They’re going to get their share, too, of course. But Rivera is now going to shoulder more of it. Done on purpose or not, it was a chess move. 

[Veretax]

The team made a come back attempt, I was happpy with that,  When Arizona decided to go all out... and got pat mid field it as over then so yeah.

I just heard was it florio? say Jordan Reid is the Savior for San Fran?  Do they know his injury history?

[Vanguard]

17 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Offensive Summary:

Opening kickoff was fielded by Sims. Will need a look back but it looks like it would have went out of bounds. And that set the tone for the opening offensive and defensive possession. To top that off, the return fumble from Sims was a backbreaker. Our offensive special teams and offense in general are major issues, to state the absolute obvious. 

 

 

That was the first thing I started complaining about.  We could have been starting from the 40.  They may need to put someone else back there.  Because he also muffed and turned the ball over.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I’m still excited for the defense overall. Eliminate the weak links in the offseason like Apke and Darby. 
 

Offensively, it’s not good. Even next year, I think you’re going to have follow the “defense + no turnovers” formula. Need upgrades on the Oline and another pass catcher. No point to talk changes this year because this is who we are now. 
 

Haskins is the worst QB we’ve had since Beck and Wuerfell. He is really really bad at pretty much everything. He was overdrafted by Snyder for god knows why. Depending on the record this year, you either draft a new guy or keep him and try to make it as easy as possible with more weapons. I’m leaning towards new guy but idk if we’ll be bad enough to get one. 
 

Still, I’m optimistic. This offense can be transformed into average in one offseason. The Haskins thing is the thing to watch 

[Spaceman Spiff]

The offense has played two games with two first halves that have had an alarming lack of alacrity.  

 

Philly could be a **** team this year, they've certainly looked like it for two games at least.  So we were able to come back, the defense was able to keep them in check.  But you can't spot a team like the Cardinals 20 points and expect to come back.  Murray is making the leap and we didn't have an answer for him.

 

I'd like to see this offense, flaws and all, play a first half like they've done the second half.  

[Koolblue13]

I'd love to see a complete game by the offense.

[JSSkinz]

I think what happened in this game was simple, when you're down 7-0 and you get a interception early you need to score points, that could have changed the entire complexion of the game.  Not only do we fumble away those points inside the 10 yard line but on AZ's next offensive series the D comes out and gets a 3 and out and then we fumbled the punt return.

 

That was the game right there.

 

Haskins didn't do us any favors, very skiddish when he throws a pass.

 

 

[@DCGoldPants]

Until the OL raise its game to "Average" you can only do so much. Now with losing a guy there. Its rough. Get rid of the formations that aren't taking advantage of the field width. Force the D to spread out of the box. 

 

On D. I don't get why the DBs didn't attempt to jam the WRs to give the DL an extra second to do something. 3 and short playing way off, confusing. 

[Burgundy Yoda]

I didn't realize KPL had 15 tackles. Did he have a big impact on the game, or were they just tackles 5+ yards down the field? 

[ExoDus84]

Any updates on Scherff? Based on the replay, and seeing his knee buckle the way it did, I'm guessing he tore something and is probably out for the long term.

Otherwise, we spotted another opponent a huge lead, and the Cardinals are leagues better than the Eagles, so it was pretty much a guaranteed L by halftime. We just don't have the talent on offense to overcome large leads against even remotely good teams.

 

Defense looked good in stretches, but also looked like they got gassed as the game wore on. I think they'll be fine.

 

Haskins looks like Haskins. Head scratching pocket presence, scattershot accuracy, questionable decision making. I think that's just who he is as a QB right now, and I don't know if he's going to get better. He still looks like a stone cold rookie.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

I'm starting to worry the o-line could regress Haskins development.  He had errors today, the o-line had errors, but at what point does Haskins errors just compound on itself over and over based on smaller o-line errors?  We're not there yet, but it is a worry.

 

Am I crazy or...

Either this is a continued 2nd half adjustment that causes the offense to do stuff

or

The o-line as a whole blocked a bit better after Scherff went down?

 

Schweitzer is definitely not a world beater, or pro-bowl caliber player, but it's really hard (and unfortunate) to think that we just saw the last time Scherff played for this team.

[Fresh8686]

Too much Qb watching from our db’s especially Landon on that 1st touchdown and Moreland on a 3rd or 4th down conversion later in the game. Also didn’t like the cushion given to Hopkins on some plays when the previous game showed how often he ran hitch routes. 

 

Apke is still way too slow with his decision making and letting people get behind him. Darby is still not good at playing the ball at the catch point. 

 

KPL had a much better game and played like last year’s tape said he could be. 

 

This offense needs much better play calling in the first half to make up for their glaring weaknesses. AG had a better game, but he’s still more athlete than running back but he has promise and is hopefully improving with every game so far. 

 

Haskins needs to be better, but he needs some help. Inman is a disappointment and needs to have better awareness for a vet. Sims had some costly mistakes in special teams and that o-line is terrible. I hope to god someone steps up here in the next couple games. I’m kind of glad we haven’t signed Scherff yet. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Logan Thomas had some good and some bad, as usual.  He's clearly somewhat talented but raw.  Very raw.  He's struggling to disengage from physical defenders.  This is kind of the Josh Doctson syndrome.  Right now Thomas profiles as a #2 TE, unless he finds a better way to release into routes and hand fight, then he's staying as a #2 TE.  I think we need to scheme up some better ways to either find McLuarin/Sims and checkdowns to RB's, find ways to scheme up occasional open looks to Thomas/Inman from coverage being drawn towards the others.

3 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:

Too much Qb watching from our db’s especially Landon on that 1st touchdown and Moreland on a 3rd or 4th down conversion later in the game. Also didn’t like the cushion given to Hopkins on some plays when the previous game showed how often he ran hitch routes. 

 

They were playing cautious, for sure.

 

3 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:

Apke is still way too slow with his decision making and letting people get behind him. Darby is still not good at playing the ball at the catch point. 

 

Yup.  So far seems that way.

 

I'm curious how we look against a non super mobile QB like Murray.  That guy is so hard to scheme against.

[Riggo#44]

28 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

I'd like to see this offense, flaws and all, play a first half like they've done the second half.  

I've been wondering about this. Is it Turner? Haskins? OL? A combination thereof? Probably yes to all. Mostly, I just want to see improvements 

[Fresh8686]

It’s obvious that Turner is still figuring out how to best utilize McLaurin and just overall getting a feel for how to properly attack the defense. He should have been having TMC running those quick slants earlier in the game and making use of his speed. He also should have called screens earlier in the game, especially when it was obvious they were pinning their ears back. Hated that our rb’s had only one catch the whole game IIRC. Also hated that they never had Haskins try to use the snap count on the defense to slow them down. 

 

This team is still young and learning, but so is it’s OC. But, the defense should be able to help him out more with less mobile qb’s. Kyler is special, but he can go **** himself this week. 

[redskins59]

One has to wonder, how good is this defense?  Twice in a row that they have given up 17 in a quarter.  If I had to guess, probably another bad defense this year.

[EmirOfShmo]

46 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

I've been wondering about this. Is it Turner? Haskins? OL? A combination thereof? Probably yes to all. Mostly, I just want to see improvements 

Both weeks I have not understood Turner's 1st half play calling. It seems disjointed & random. And didn't seem to ease Haskins in to a comfortable start. 

The earlier quote on here from Haskins saying something like "We were expecting A & B defense but they did E defense. Once we figured that out were able to move the ball." That's on Turner & his assistants. It took them a half to figure it out.

We have a rookie (talented) OC with a rookie QB. It's going to take time for both. 

 

Edit: And I have to add this: Sonny used to be able to explain what they were trying to do offensively in the 1st 3 minutes. It was so "here's what they're trying to do & why". I so miss those days. At least you could understand what they were trying to do.Now...not so much. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Wow, I think we actually match up well to the Browns even though am not sold that this is a good team. 

 

 

 

one of my biggest draft man crushes, Gibson, @KDawgliked him too -- looked good.  McKissic as well.   I think Gibson ultimately develops into a star level weapon. 

 

 

 

[Malapropismic Depository]

Here's what I want to know -

Arizona was able to beat our defensive pressure and thrive, basically by throwing quick passes.

Why can't our offense learn to do the same, considering our weak OL ?

[redskins59]

Just now, Malapropismic Depository said:

Here's what I want to know -

Arizona was able to beat our defensive pressure and thrive, basically by throwing quick passes.

Why can't our offense learn to do the same, considering our weak OL ?

Apparently, we threw the ball faster than Arizona if you look at next gen stats (Kyle Murray at 2.58, and Haskins at 2.32).  The trouble is that this is just a putrid offensive line.

[Malapropismic Depository]

3 minutes ago, redskins59 said:

Apparently, we threw the ball faster than Arizona if you look at next gen stats (Kyle Murray at 2.58, and Haskins at 2.32).  The trouble is that this is just a putrid offensive line.

 

One flaw with that stat is it only counts the time on actual passes - not how long the QB held the ball on sacks