Next Day Thread (Same Day Edition): WFT vs. Arizona

[Darrell Green Fan]

1 hour ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Drew Brees

Eli Manning

Ben Rothliesberger threw 23 INTs his third year in the league, and eclipsed 20 TDs for the 1st time in his 4th year.

 

And, Haskins doesn't even have a full season of starts under his belt yet. He need more patience and time, something fans want to scream about for the organization to demonstrate, but don't want to exhibit themselves.

 

That was a different time. Now QBs play early and we see what we have.  As I was explaining in last week's thread about Daniel Jones did any of these QB have accuracy problems the way Haskins does? No they did not.  Turnovers can be fixed, not hitting what you are throwing at is a much higher hurdle.  And that's just one of his many issues but it's the biggest one.  

 

Again I hope you are right but I've seen this moving way too many times. Fans always believe their young QB can improve and become good, it seldom happens.    

[Riggo#44]

1 minute ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

As I was explaining in last week's thread about Daniel Jones did any of these QB have accuracy problems the way Haskins does? No they did not.

Eli Manning was terrible. 

2 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

not hitting what you are throwing at is a much higher hurdle,

 

I feel the opposite--turnovers are usually a mental aspect, poor reads on defense. That's much harder to cut down than physical mechanics that can be fixed through repetition.

[skinny21]

I’m definitely worried that Haskins isn’t the guy.  I can’t say I’m surprised by his rough start, but it has gone worse than I expected.  
 

With that said, I can’t think of a qb that has had worse circumstances (aside from injuries) in their first two years.  Setting aside last year’s **** show - a new O, an inexperienced OC, an unproven left side of the line, 4 of 6 new targets - all without a real off-season.  That is a lot for a young qb.  Add in the fact that he probably has one of, if not the worst supporting casts... it was/is a recipe for disaster.  

I’m not saying this to absolve Haskins.  He’s showing poor accuracy and a lack of touch.  Maybe some of that is due to lack of separation (it seems like he’s thrown the ball better to McLaurin than anyone else), lack of comfort in the pocket (hello Christian), etc... but he’s been wildly inconsistent even on a lot of the easy throws.  
 

It’s not all doom and gloom though.  Decision-making has been pretty good, leadership and work ethic concerns are way different from last year.  He’s also getting the ball out of his hands quick... and isn't turning the ball over (although strip sacks from the blind side are, and will likely continue to be a problem).  If the oline can see an uptick from experience, Turner settles down as a play caller and gets a better feel for what Dwayne and the offense/players can handle... maybe we see some marked improvement (relatively speaking).  

 

I’d like to see us lean a bit more on the run game.  

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

2 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

Eli Manning was terrible. 

 

I feel the opposite--turnovers are usually a mental aspect, poor reads on defense. That's much harder to cut down than physical mechanics that can be fixed through repetition.

 

The mental aspect can improve with experience. Taking an inaccurate QB and making him accurate is like taking a poor free throw shooter and turning him into a good shooter.  When those QBs played it was a different era.  We see today by the 2nd year if a QB is going to be good or not, the odds say not here.    

[CrypticVillain]

5 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

The mental aspect can improve with experience.

And this is why I'm kind of panicking about Haskins. Mentally, he seems to be able to make the right play most of the time, it's his execution that isn't progressing. I would love to blame the rest of the pieces around him but even when everything looks right, more often than not, he's off.

I said in the first four games we should see something from him that'll comfort whatever fears we have with him. Starting to think he may need a few extra more games to fairly critique but this next game is huge for him.

 

I'm not tripping off the defense giving up 30 points. It was just a horrible match-up for them; something they needed to learn from.

And Arizona was EXTREMELY aggressive too. Like I said, the defense needed to see a team like this.

[Riggo#44]

1 minute ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

We see today by the 2nd year if a QB is going to be good or not, the odds say not here.

 

9 starts. You want to make a determination after 9 starts?

 

And I demonstrated quarterbacks that improved accuracy and performance later in their career and you dismissed them like they played in the 70's. Here is another (some will disagree with me, but the numbers speak for themselves, IMO) but Josh Allen went from low-50% his 1st two years in the league to over 70% this year. Ryan Tannehill is another. Matt Stafford's 1st 10 starts were horrific.

 

Writing Haskins off after 9 starts is 2001-level Dan Snyder impatience.

[skinny21]

1 minute ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

The mental aspect can improve with experience. Taking an inaccurate QB and making him accurate is like taking a poor free throw shooter and turning him into a good shooter.  When those QBs played it was a different era.  We see today by the 2nd year if a QB is going to be good or not, the odds say not here.    

Your point (kind of ironically, since you are arguing times have changed for qbs) is backed up by the stats posted regarding qbs that had a rough start to their year.  Jones might be a different situation though - the turnovers have been a consistent problem going back to college.  My bigger issue with Jones is the sensing pressure bit.  
 

I agree with you that mechanics are probably harder to fix than getting better at reads and understanding defenses.  OTOH, I have to believe Haskins accuracy could be helped significantly via better separation and scheming guys open.  I have no idea about touch though.  Seems to me getting more comfortable (within the scheme, with his receivers, etc) should/could help, but I don’t know.  I do feel like the desire to get the ball out quickly (is this system related, protection related?) is sort of at odds with putting touch on the ball for a young guy in the early stages of figuring things out.  
 

 

[theTruthTeller]

Don't worry about things you can't change.  Haskins is a cheap starter and his salary is guaranteed through his fourth year.  I don't see how his starting hurts the team.  We have the worst offensive starters in the NFL.  Right now, changing QBs would be like rebuilding the engine in a Pontiac Aztek.  Drive it until it stops running and save up for a new car in the meantime; i.e., fix the ****ing OL.

[Darrell Green Fan]

4 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Your point (kind of ironically, since you are arguing times have changed for qbs) is backed up by the stats posted regarding qbs that had a rough start to their year.  Jones might be a different situation though - the turnovers have been a consistent problem going back to college.  My bigger issue with Jones is the sensing pressure bit.  
 

I agree with you that mechanics are probably harder to fix than getting better at reads and understanding defenses.  OTOH, I have to believe Haskins accuracy could be helped significantly via better separation and scheming guys open.  I have no idea about touch though.  Seems to me getting more comfortable (within the scheme, with his receivers, etc) should/could help, but I don’t know.  I do feel like the desire to get the ball out quickly (is this system related, protection related?) is sort of at odds with putting touch on the ball for a young guy in the early stages of figuring things out.  
 

 

 

I was one who believed Jason Campbell and Patrick Ramsey would improve with time and experience. I just knew all those deep throws 5 yards out of bounds was just a function of a young QB who will improve his mechanics and delivery. 

 

I am not making that mistake again. I'm surely not closing the book after 9 games, but it's becoming pretty clear to me that it's entirely possible that they may be chasing their tail expecting something to happen that may never happen. 

[Skinsinparadise]

To me this season is mostly about Haskins' development.  My caveat though is if he plays the whole season like this, I wouldn't give him a pass and bring this to season 3 if they have an opportunity to upgrade the position.  Burrow has already been good and his team isn't loaded with weapons or has a killer O line.  Ditto Herbert who made his debut yesterday.  Jax isn't loaded with weapons to say the least and they have a bad o line yet Minshew has been good.

 

I've been screaming all off season about the O line stinking.   And it indeed stinks.  But I do think you can evaulate a Qb's accuracy, touch among other things especially on the plays where the QB has time.   I am not throwing in the towel.  Far from it.  But I am not in the camp that we can't evalaute Haskins.  i think we can evaluate him as we go even if we should grade him on a curve.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/09/21/dwayne-haskins-kyler-murray/

But it’s hard to think that, even as progress is made, there won’t be a week-to-week referendum on Haskins as the franchise quarterback. That’s not necessarily fair. It’s just reality. Because you can’t help but look around — at Mahomes and Jackson, at Murray and Burrow, at the veteran star quarterbacks who persist. It all makes it hard not to wonder what it might be like in Washington had one of those transcendent talents fallen here, with the right structure and staff to support him.

 

 

 

[London Kev]

Just to be clear, although I'm down on Haskins right now, I definitely think we should stick with him for the entire season. We have to know for sure what he is. I realise that some already think they know, and maybe they do?

 

He can be reassessed at the end of the season with his performance weighted for the quality of the O-line. What have we got to lose? I mean does anyone really think that this team is going to the playoffs with or without Haskins? (anyone apart from Tater that is 🙂).

[Riggo#44]

3 minutes ago, London Kev said:

He can be reassessed at the end of the season with his performance weighted for the quality of the O-line. What have we got to lose? I mean does anyone really think that this team is going to the playoffs with or without Haskins?

 

People keep bringing up Campbell--and maybe they're right, maybe he's another Campbell, we'll see. But Campbell held back a playoff team. This is a totally different situation. Hell, I'd even go so far as give him next year too, and draft Penei Sewell. PFF graded Christian and Martin in the 30s. When was the last team--any team--had a pair of starting OL that bad?

[DJHJR86]

Something random I noticed: 

 

Terry McLaurin is #2 overall in the NFL for YAC. 

[Playaction2Sanders]

Its very disconcerting to see Justin Herbert, who didn't work with the Chargers 1st team offense all week, have the kind of game he did against the SB champs that we have yet to see from Haskins in 11 games.. Granted KC didn't prepare for him but still he has more 300 yard games than Simba does and he has 10 more starts than Justin does.. There are plenty of young QB's out there in crappy situations we can look at and compare to Haskins growth. Eventually things are going to be expected.. I do however think of QB's like Drew Brees, who didn't start putting things together till his 3rd season, and didn't become the Brees we know today till he was 27 his 6th season..

 

I liked what Mckissic did, looking forward to seeing that combo with Gibson and taking some pressure off of him. Its a long season and I don't want to see Antonio get too beat up where the longevity of the season gets to him by week 12 since he's not used to this type of load.

 

I only got to see a few min of the 2nd quarter due to work but yea the first half theme. Seems opposing teams initial gameplans tear us apart and by the time they get to their playbook defensively we've figured them out but you can't keep falling behind by 2 to 3 scores and expect to win..

 

Need better safety play. I know they say Apke is athletic but he looks slow on those deep routes he constantly gets beat on. Is there just no answer behind him? Curl not good enough?

 

Murray looked great early. Gonna have to figure out those mobile QB's since we still have Dak 2 times, Wilson, and Jackson.

[@DCGoldPants]

Without an OL that is even average along with the same issue at WR and TE.......AND we don't know about these RBs. Judging a QB as if that position is an island is hard. What is Thomas caught 2 of those 4+ that hit his fingers and then the ground? What if the OL didn't give up a strip sack in the redzone? What if Apkye wasn't struggling this much? 

 

I don't know. Maybe Haskins still misses guys or looks uneasy in the pocket. 2 weeks ago we talked about only a couple of wins and hoping to see guys improving over the year and finishing the season strong. That hasn't changed.

 

I would get Charles in at LT as soon as possible. 

[theTruthTeller]

44 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

People keep bringing up Campbell--and maybe they're right, maybe he's another Campbell, we'll see. But Campbell held back a playoff team. This is a totally different situation. Hell, I'd even go so far as give him next year too, and draft Penei Sewell. PFF graded Christian and Martin in the 30s. When was the last team--any team--had a pair of starting OL that bad?

I wonder how many football fans outside of DC could name even three offensive starters on the WFT.  In retrospect, I'm starting to believe that we should have traded the Chase Young pick to a fringe contender and built up the offense.  The offense has only one healthy player that would start on most other NFL teams.  That's pretty pathetic.

[DJHJR86]

 

 

[KDawg]

Chart makes sense. Haskins, for his faults, does have some bright spots. Lack of turnovers and (generally) gets rid of the ball or runs with it very quickly. We can question the decisions he makes in regards to those things, but no one can say the dude isn't generally safe with the ball and quick to get rid of it. 

[Llevron]

Just now, KDawg said:

Chart makes sense. Haskins, for his faults, does have some bright spots. Lack of turnovers and (generally) gets rid of the ball or runs with it very quickly. We can question the decisions he makes in regards to those things, but no one can say the dude isn't generally safe with the ball and quick to get rid of it. 

I actually wonder if throwing it so quickly has something to do with his piss poor accuracy. 
 

one of you smart people weigh in on that pls. Should he slow it down a bit? Or is that still more about his **** mechanics? 

[max21]

22 minutes ago, Playaction2Sanders said:

Its very disconcerting to see Justin Herbert, who didn't work with the Chargers 1st team offense all week, have the kind of game he did against the SB champs that we have yet to see from Haskins in 11 games.. Granted KC didn't prepare for him but still he has more 300 yard games than Simba does and he has 10 more starts than Justin does.. There are plenty of young QB's out there in crappy situations we can look at and compare to Haskins growth. Eventually things are going to be expected.. I do however think of QB's like Drew Brees, who didn't start putting things together till his 3rd season, and didn't become the Brees we know today till he was 27 his 6th season..

 

I liked what Mckissic did, looking forward to seeing that combo with Gibson and taking some pressure off of him. Its a long season and I don't want to see Antonio get too beat up where the longevity of the season gets to him by week 12 since he's not used to this type of load.

 

I only got to see a few min of the 2nd quarter due to work but yea the first half theme. Seems opposing teams initial gameplans tear us apart and by the time they get to their playbook defensively we've figured them out but you can't keep falling behind by 2 to 3 scores and expect to win..

 

Need better safety play. I know they say Apke is athletic but he looks slow on those deep routes he constantly gets beat on. Is there just no answer behind him? Curl not good enough?

 

Murray looked great early. Gonna have to figure out those mobile QB's since we still have Dak 2 times, Wilson, and Jackson.

It shouldn’t be that discouraging, Herbert is just better than Haskins. Although he does have a better supporting cast. Apke did suck, and I know Derwin James has been injury prone I still think why we didn’t take him over Payne. The backend would be solidified with a (healthy) James 

[Playaction2Sanders]

1 hour ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

People keep bringing up Campbell--and maybe they're right, maybe he's another Campbell, we'll see. But Campbell held back a playoff team. This is a totally different situation. Hell, I'd even go so far as give him next year too, and draft Penei Sewell. PFF graded Christian and Martin in the 30s. When was the last team--any team--had a pair of starting OL that bad?

 

I do not get the Campbell comparison. JC was a robot who couldn't convince a possum to play dead and you knew he wasn't a voice in the locker room. SImba at least has that passion you can get behind and feed off of.. Campbell I will say had a touch for the deep ball, which I know is what Gibbs loved about him, why he picked him and basically required from all his QB's. the most common trait I can only see is they're black quarterbacks and it ends there so I don't get it..

[KDawg]

8 minutes ago, Llevron said:

I actually wonder if throwing it so quickly has something to do with his piss poor accuracy. 
 

one of you smart people weigh in on that pls. Should he slow it down a bit? Or is that still more about his **** mechanics? 

 

If he slows down he's going to have some problems. He doesn't diagnose coverage rolls well and doesn't throw receivers open. He throws to the receiver. He doesn't throw to a spot. He tried to throw to a spot yesterday and he threw it 8 yards behind McLaurin who made a different read. That's going to limit his trust in himself as well. He needs to get some confidence by hitting some big throws... But taking his time would hurt him. He needs to have quick hit routes and utilize the backs more... Loosen the D a little to give the receivers time to get separation, in my opinion, anyways. 

 

7 minutes ago, Playaction2Sanders said:

 

I do not get the Campbell comparison. JC was a robot who couldn't convince a possum to play dead and you knew he wasn't a voice in the locker room. SImba at least has that passion you can get behind and feed off of.. Campbell I will say had a touch for the deep ball, which I know is what Gibbs loved about him, why he picked him and basically required from all his QB's. the most common trait I can only see is they're black quarterbacks and it ends there so I don't get it..

 

I have used Campbell. And for me, it's not that he plays QB similarly. It's that he's gunshy like Campbell was. And Ramsey. They get hit so often they "see ghosts" and panic. 

[Playaction2Sanders]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I have used Campbell. And for me, it's not that he plays QB similarly. It's that he's gunshy like Campbell was. And Ramsey. They get hit so often they pull "see ghosts" and panic. 

 Fair

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[PartyPosse]

No doubt Haskins gets the year but unless he shows significant improvement that’s all he’ll get. Just look at the team we should played. They made a decision that Rosen wasn’t the guy fairly quickly and it turned out to be the right decision even though he didn’t have a ton to work with either. Admitting mistakes is the hardest thing to do in football.