FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[bowhunter]

7 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

The difference in the Colts of Lucks first few years in the NFL and us is we have a solid right side on the O line and our RB's are a strength.

 

 

And yet another difference is that Andrew Luck actually isn't Dwayne Haskins. Completely different person with a completely different propensity for injury. I don't think they even had the same parents

[Malapropismic Depository]

3 hours ago, drowland said:

 

Ha, no not a doctor.  Just curious why an I juried player is practicing but can't go in a game.  Makes me wonder if Jay's playing mind games with Philly.  He won't announce a starter so Philly prepares for Case or Haskins and then McCoy ends up starting week 1.  I don't think the Skins have to release an official injury report until Sept 4th.  Is Jay this crafty?

 

Absolutely possible.

He's a lot smarter than people give him credit for.

It's easy to judge a person by their most obvious mannerisms, like his "awe shucks" attitude or whatever people want to call it. But you can see it in his wit and quick-witted responses off the fly, for example. Wit isn't just an indication of humor ; it is also a sign of intelligent life.

[volsmet]

56 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Absolutely possible.

He's a lot smarter than people give him credit for.

It's easy to judge a person by their outstanding mannerisms, like his "awe shucks" attitude or whatever people want to call it. But you can see it in his wit and quick-witted responses off the fly, for example. Wit isn't just an indication of humor ; it is also a sign of intelligent life.

 

Jay is essentially John Nash, he just hasn’t devised a way to make the first down run less predictable... yet. 

[KillBill26]

3 hours ago, drowland said:

 

Ha, no not a doctor.  Just curious why an I juried player is practicing but can't go in a game.  Makes me wonder if Jay's playing mind games with Philly.  He won't announce a starter so Philly prepares for Case or Haskins and then McCoy ends up starting week 1.  I don't think the Skins have to release an official injury report until Sept 4th.  Is Jay this crafty?

I don't think he would have colt skip the entire preseason.  I know colt has been in the system awhile, but if jay was going to go with him as a starter, colt could certainly use some reps to prepare.  I think the approach would've been to start colt the first couple games, even if he doesn't play long, then maybe start talking about how his leg isn't right around this point in the preseason and sit him out the rest of the way.  The fact colt will have zero preseason reps makes me believe something really isn't right.

 

I think a better approach would be to start talking now about how colt is feeling much better and is nearing a return, hopefully on Thursday, and maybe that would lead Philly to waste their time on colt film.

[oraphus]

yeah ...Jay is truly genius.. he is going to replace one average QB with an injury prone below average QB.. that will really throw Eagles for a loop 🙄

 

[Malapropismic Depository]

2 hours ago, volsmet said:

 

Jay is essentially John Nash, he just hasn’t devised a way to make the first down run less predictable... yet. 

 

Jay is just lulling the rest of the world into a false sense of security.

Soon he will be throwing the ball and completing 99-yard TD's on first down from his own 1 yard line.

And the genius thing is he's got the timing down perfect. Because right about now, all other teams are set in their "lull", while Jay is ready to unveil the QB with the arm strength to complete that 99-yarder, and the receiver in McLaurin with the speed to do it as well.

[Reaper Skins]

On 8/17/2019 at 7:34 PM, PartyPosse said:

mixed with Reed Doughtys

 

Within a squad of James Thrashs

[Stadium-Armory]

Daniel Jones looked really good against the Bears on Friday.

[sportjunkie07]

52 minutes ago, Stadium-Armory said:

Daniel Jones looked really good against the bears on Friday.

I never thought it was a terrible pick just a bit earlier than when they could've gotten him.. 

 

But it's preseason and evaluations on qbs are pretty insignificant. 

[mistertim]

38 minutes ago, Stadium-Armory said:

Daniel Jones looked really good against the Bears on Friday.

 

Yeah he did look pretty decent. But to be honest I'm not all that surprised that he's looked a bit better/more consistent than both Haskins and Murray at the beginning. Jones came from a team that ran a relatively pro-style offense with a QB guru coach who could help him prepare for the NFL. He also consistently faced pressure so is more or less used to it.

 

Murray and Haskins are the opposite. They both had relatively simple offenses, great talent around them to throw to, and rarely faced much pressure. It doesn't surprise me at all that their learning curves are bigger.

 

That being said, I still think that when the dust settles, Jones will end up being exactly what he was in college...a completely pedestrian and unremarkable QB who was ok at a handful of things but great at nothing. 

 

[RawRebel]

56 minutes ago, Stadium-Armory said:

Daniel Jones looked really good against the Bears on Friday.

He looked really good against non starters.

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, RawRebel said:

He looked really good against non starters.

 

True, but that was also playing mostly with non starters as well. DH was playing against 2nd and 3rd stringers too. 

[RawRebel]

8 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

True, but that was also playing mostly with non starters as well. DH was playing against 2nd and 3rd stringers too. 

DH playing with make shift o line and perine.

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

 You sound absolute like this is a natural law like gravity.  I think the chances of 10+ wins with anyone starting on this team are low but I believe that is the relevant question.

It is, to be sure, an opinion.  However, based on his history, his arm strength, his performances to date, and current reporting, it seems like the most likely scenario.  And when I say "most likely scenario" I mean about as assured as gravity.  

 

2 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

The relevant question is of the QBs on the roster who will have the Skins win the most games this season and the answer may be Case Keenum.  I don't know if that is the case or not if that is what Gruden believes he should go with Keenum.  Football is a week to week, year by year thing and teams should go all out to win each and every week so I want them to go with the starters that offer the best chance in week 1, whoever they are.  

That's not the relevant question.  The relevant question is: Are you going to win 10+ games and make a playoff run with Keenum.  If the answer is no, then what's the difference between winning 4-7 games with Keenum and 2-7 games with Haskins? You know Keenum is a stop-gap.  Haskins is the future.  Play the future.  

 

Being in the middle is the absolute worst place to be.  Either suck and get better assets to get better, or content.  Being in the middle is purgatory.  

 

2 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

I disagree.  You and I don't know how much Haskins understands and needs to know before he is ready to start.  They shouldn't dummy down an offense to the limits of a rookie and in the process perhaps forfeit whatever chance they have for success in 2019.  Moreover, I think the impairs the progress and potential for low terms success of others as well as the rookie QB.

They ABSOLUTELY SHOULD always tailor the offense, or defense, to the skills and abilities of every player on the field.  That's called "good coaching."  If you don't do it, it's bad coaching.  

 

And with Haskins, there has to be a situation for him to be successful.  You just have to find it.  

 

2 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Well, how did that work out?  From my point of view very poorly.  As we can clearly see now of the 3 2012 QBs, the real talent was Kirk Cousins, not Grossman or Griffin as Kirk has proven.  If there had been a fair and open QB competition to run Shannys WCO in 2012 Cousins would have won it.  As it was Cousins did beat out Grossman but Kirk wasn't allowed to compete with Griffin who was cast as the starter like a leading man in a movie, apparently, you didn't learn a thing from that sorry experience and want to repeat that mistake.

It worked out exceptionally well, actually.  The Shanahan's tailored their system to fit the QB they drafted, and he had as good a rookie season as could have been expected because of it. 

 

It turned out Griffin was both fragile physically and mentally, so his body broke and his mind exploded.  In fact, when he went to the Shanahans and said, "I'm not running the 50-series (read-option) stuff, that's when Griffin started to really struggle BECAUSE he couldn't do all the other things.  If Griffin hadn't been an obnoxious know-it-all who knew nothing, and had just stuck with the program, he probably would have had the best success if Mike and Kyle had stuck around.

 

However, Griffin decided he didn't want to do what he was good at, then Jay tried to force him into his offense, and the combination was just complete failure.  

 

2 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

The Skins went all on Griffin and cobbled together simplified offense he could run until the inevitable happened, the running QB got hurt.  I don't want to go down that road again.  I'd like to see the Redskins be patient and play the QB that is best prepared to win on opening day and if that isn't Haskins allow Haskins the time learn defenses and call protections from the film room and the sidelines until ready to protect himself.

 

 

Haskins clearly can operate some of an NFL offense, I think the early returns are encouraging.  I want to see him brought along intelligently.

I don't think that it's inevitable.  Wilson runs a ton, he hasn't gotten hurt.  

 

And in no way am I suggesting the tailored offense for Haskins would resemble in any way the tailored offense for Griffin.  It SHOULD be drastically different. 

 

What can protect a pocket passer with limited mobility?  As far as I can tell, 4 things:

 

1. Being unpredictable.  If you let the defense get into a groove, then you're screwed.  This means NOT running with the same play on every first down.  It means mixing things up.  Do things that keep the defense guessing.  If they don't KNOW what is coming, then it gives the QB a beat of extra time.

 

2. Move the pocket.  A LOT.  Haskins has some mobility in the pocket.  So use it.  Roll him in one direction or the other Peyton Manning, who's about as mobile as the statue of liberty, won 3 or 4 NFL MVPs by running the same zone-stretch play-action play a million times.  It has several benefits: a. It gets the defense moving in one direction, giving the opportunity for a cut-back, 2. it moves the QB off the spot so anybody trying to the get to the QB has to cover more ground, and 3. it seemlessly incorporates your running game with your passing game.  Do something like that.  Move the pocket. 

 

3. Go hurry-up.  It's easier.  Trust me.  Defenses are more vanilla and you can keep the personnel group the same.  It really simplifies what the defense can do to you, which is good for a QB.  Again, I go to Manning early in his career.  He brought the Colts up to the LOS very quickly, that got the defense set.  Then he would adjust from there at the LOS.  This was in yea 1 and 2.  As he progressed, he did more switching and stuff, but the reason they had Peyton do it to start out with is because it simplified the defense for him early on.  And as Peyton got better and better, they evolved the offense.  

 

4. Run the ball, but not always on first down.  Also, if your first down run is stuffed, try not to run it on second down and und up with a 3rd and 8+ because you are stubborn. The caveat to that is while they SHOULD run the ball a lot, they also SHOULD mix in quick-game a bunch which actually almost counts as a run.  And Haskins is pretty good at that.  He did a ton of it at Ohio State.  

 

If you do those 4 things, you can simplify the offense, put pressure on the defense, and bring Haskins along slowly while he's playing.  Also while not getting him killed.  

 

44 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Yeah he did look pretty decent. But to be honest I'm not all that surprised that he's looked a bit better/more consistent than both Haskins and Murray at the beginning. Jones came from a team that ran a relatively pro-style offense with a QB guru coach who could help him prepare for the NFL. He also consistently faced pressure so is more or less used to it.

Haskins is also being asked to do a lot when he's out there.  Jay is challenging him to run the entire offense. 

 

I get the feeling Jones is being asked to do less, based on what I've seen and heard.  They've installed stuff where he has to make less decisions.

 

I actually like the way Jay is handling this, if true, more, because it forces Haskins to learn.  However, when it comes time to play, then you can simplify some things for him so it can be easier.

[Voice_of_Reason]

17 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Absolutely possible.

He's a lot smarter than people give him credit for.

It's easy to judge a person by their most obvious mannerisms, like his "awe shucks" attitude or whatever people want to call it. But you can see it in his wit and quick-witted responses off the fly, for example. Wit isn't just an indication of humor ; it is also a sign of intelligent life.

I don't know that anybody is judging Jay at this point on "awe shucks." At least not around here.  I think there is 5 years worth of "stuff" to look at, in terms of game planning, preparation, execution, etc.

 

I said a while ago I think the first down run thing was going to get corrected this year.  Let's see if it does.

 

My concern with Jay, and in some ways it's the same with a lot of really smart coordinators (Al Saunder's and that Ram's OC/Head coach who's name I can't remember who was the greatest show on turf guy) is that they SO COMPLETELY believe that if they can just get players to execute their scheme, there's 100% chance of success.  And they really don't want to deviate from the plan.  And, to be fair, the plan is pretty good to exceptional when it is well executed.  

 

But you can't run Al Saunder's offense which he ran in KC with Trent Green and a bunch of WRs when you have Mark Brunell/Jason Campbell and a bunch of jabronis at WR. This is a key reason 2006 just stunk.  

 

We'll see. I hope Jay and the coaches can be creative and unpredictable, because it would make execution easier.  

[volsmet]

Wilson definitely takes more unnecessary hits than nearly anyone, he’s been fortunate with injuries. Dak.... ooof.

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Wilson definitely takes more unnecessary hits than nearly anyone, he’s been fortunate with injuries. Dak.... ooof.

 

 

I think that's actually because Wilson actually hangs in the pocket longer than most folks realize trying to play on-schedule, and at times just get's burried. 

 

Dak just hold the ball forever because he's not good.  Watson also holds the ball, just completed his second season as a starter.  Mahomes just finished his first season as a starter.  Tribs just finished his second season as a starter.  Anything under 8 or 9, who cares.  That's 8 plays over an entire season where maybe the QB goofs.  Over 500 snaps,-ish, it just doesn't matter.  

 

These are sack numbers, I think.  These are not hits based on Wilson leaving the pocket and turning into a runner.

 

I have watched quite a bit of the seahawks over the years.  It's so fantastically different watching him vs. Griffin.  Wilson almost never seems to take a direct shot.  He gets sacked here and there, however especially when he breaks the pocket, hr rarely takes a direct shot.  Whereas it was almost as though Griffin was searching out the largest guy around who could blow his ass back to Texas.

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 8/16/2019 at 2:31 PM, Mooka said:

You can't protect your QB if said O-lineman can't block said D-lineman.

 

There's no scheming around that.

Yes there is, actually.   In fact, Bill Walsh would beg to differ because he created an offense SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE his OL in Cincy couldn't block a 4 year old.  They couldn't run and couldn't pass because they were B-A-D.  So what did he do?  he invented what is now known as the WCO where the QB can get rid of the ball in less than 3 seconds, which essentially renders the pass rush useless.  

 

You can't block Fletcher Cox 1:1?  So don't block him 1:1.  Run at him, run away from him, double him, throw a few screens in his direction so he has to think a little bit about what is going on.  

 

I agree.  If you play it "straight up" and announce to the defense what is coming, and then try and do it, unless your players are better than there players, you're going to struggle. 

 

So be creative.  Run some misdirection.  Some boots.  Some jet sweeps.  Jet sweep action.  All of these things were INVENTED in order to slow down a pass rush because nobody can block everybody.  

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Haskins is also being asked to do a lot when he's out there.  Jay is challenging him to run the entire offense. 

 

I get the feeling Jones is being asked to do less, based on what I've seen and heard.  They've installed stuff where he has to make less decisions.

 

I actually like the way Jay is handling this, if true, more, because it forces Haskins to learn.  However, when it comes time to play, then you can simplify some things for him so it can be easier.

 

I just re-watched every Jones snap from the Bears game a couple of times to refresh my memory and I think that's a pretty fair point. He seemed to have quite a few predetermined reads and the route progressions were relatively straightforward. I also didn't really see him do much at the line regarding protections. Though there were a couple times I saw him go through multiple reads pretty well. He also had those two fumbles which continues to seemingly plague him from his college days. 

 

So yeah, overall a fair point. Haskins is being pushed harder by Jay and I agree with you that it's good. 

[bakedtater1]

Didn't even look like haskins said sorry to the poor fella..

[mistertim]

31 minutes ago, bakedtater1 said:

Didn't even look like haskins said sorry to the poor fella..

 

Wasn't that him saying "My bad" at 6 seconds in?

[bakedtater1]

34 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Wasn't that him saying "My bad" at 6 seconds in?

Maybe so I didn't hear it haha..as he just walks by him

[RandyHolt]

5 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

It is, to be sure, an opinion.  However, based on his history, his arm strength, his performances to date, and current reporting, it seems like the most likely scenario.  And when I say "most likely scenario" I mean about as assured as gravity.  

 

That's not the relevant question.  The relevant question is: Are you going to win 10+ games and make a playoff run with Keenum.  If the answer is no, then what's the difference between winning 4-7 games with Keenum and 2-7 games with Haskins? You know Keenum is a stop-gap.  Haskins is the future.  Play the future.  ......

 

Post of the day, easily. Bravo.

 

Thanks for pointing out something I never thought of despite being a hurry up (less) cheerleader for 2 decades - hurry up keeps things simple for the QB as he doesn't have to worry about constant personnel groupings changing with every damn snap. On both sides of the ball. Give him the best 10 players we have and find plays to use them. Hell, script a set.

 

I love that you stressed moving the pocket and moving him around, and Indy's simple yet effective stretch. There are ways to use a young QB and not risk ruining him forever. And I love running fat DL sideline to sideline, stretch right stretch left, repeat. You know they ****ing hate it. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Post of the day, easily. Bravo.

 

Thanks for pointing out something I never thought of despite being a hurry up (less) cheerleader for 2 decades - hurry up keeps things simple for the QB as he doesn't have to worry about constant personnel groupings changing with every damn snap. On both sides of the ball. Give him the best 10 players we have and find plays to use them. Hell, script a set.

 

I love that you stressed moving the pocket and moving him around, and Indy's simple yet effective stretch. There are ways to use a young QB and not risk ruining him forever. And I love running fat DL sideline to sideline, stretch right stretch left, repeat. You know they ****ing hate it. 

Thanks! 

 

I think everybody who likes offense should go back and watch the offense young Peyton ran in 1999-2000.  He was still a young QB who made mistakes.  But they did EVERYTHING you can imagine to make things simple for him.  It really wasn’t that complicated an offense. I’m not saying Haskins can be Peyton.  But you can learn a ton of how to develop a pocket passer by watching what the colts did with Peyton.  

 

In fact I think one of the reasons the patriots defense had their way with Peyton early on is because the offense was actually fairly simple and Bellichick figured it out.  But he was one of the only ones to figure it out...