FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Cougarrick]

Coach - ok men we aren't going to be any good this year so we are are going to take our lumps and play Dwayne. Is that ok with you AP? And all you defensive players better suck it up because we don't want any easy touchdowns after Dwayne coughs the ball up on our end of the field. 

 

Or this- ok guys we are going to do our very best to try and win every game. We are all in this league to make a lot of money and we are going to do every thing we can for every player to see that we can all play and coach at our absolute best. 

[bowhunter]

34 minutes ago, Cougarrick said:

Or this- ok guys we are going to do our very best to try and win every game. We are all in this league to make a lot of money and we are going to do every thing we can for every player to see that we can all play and coach at our absolute best. 

Or (2019) "OK men, it looks like the most talented QB we have isn't going to play because he doesn't have any experience, Suck it up."

 (2020 "Ok men, it looks like the most talented QB we have STILL isn't going to play because he doesn't have any experience, Suck it up."

 (2021) "Ok men, it looks like the most talented QB we have STILL isn't going to play because he doesn't have any experience, Suck it up."

(2022) "Ok men, it looks like the most talented QB we have STILL isn't going to play because he doesn't have any experience, Suck it up."

 

There's one about experience, everyone can get it, unless they can't

[PartyPosse]

Dwayne is already taking tough shots with his starting LG and LT in there against very vanilla defensive schemes with many 2nd and 3rd stringers who may not even be on a roster come September. I'd love to see Dwayne come in and just take the reigns but I'd also rather have the QB in there that knows the speed of the game and makes the smarter play at this juncture of their careers. 

[Cougarrick]

Haskins can get his experience at the end of games and in practice just like every other QBs has. The cream always rises to the top. 

[HTTRDynasty]

The run game this preseason definitely isn't doing the kid any favors in terms of putting him in situations to succeed:

 

 

[PartyPosse]

1 minute ago, HTTRDynasty said:

The run game this preseason definitely isn't doing the kid any favors in terms of putting him in situations to succeed:

 

 

I'm actually ok with this as we haven't seen much of AP or any of Guice so it's not bad seeing how Haskins handles those third and longs knowing full well there's gonna be more pressure coming his way. 

[HTTRDynasty]

12 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I'm actually ok with this as we haven't seen much of AP or any of Guice so it's not bad seeing how Haskins handles those third and longs knowing full well there's gonna be more pressure coming his way. 

 

Good for his development.  Bad for his health. 

[ddub52]

As much as I’d love to see Haskins play, I’m in the “sit him til he’s ready” crowd. We’ve got a patchwork O line that’s not likely to have Trent Williams at any point in the season. I’d rather let them gel and let Callahan figure out the best starting lineup before we throw Haskins behind them. 

[Malapropismic Depository]

Imagine Case Keenum vs Kirk Cousins in week 5 and the storylines.

Which QB offers the greater advantage in knowing the opponent's offense and defense ?

[Veryoldschool]

14 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

Imagine Case Keenum vs Kirk Cousins in week 5 and the storylines.

Which QB offers the greater advantage in knowing the opponent's defense ?

 

They don't meet until week 8 but your point is well taken, each of them knows their opponent's offense.

 

  I just hope the Skins are doing well enough that we still care in week 8.

[zCommander]

4 hours ago, Mooka said:

 

You can't protect your QB if said O-lineman can't block said D-lineman.

 

There's no scheming around that.

 

Takes 1 play to get injured. 

 

For example, they let RG3 scramble and run the RO before he could protect himself. Dude couldn't slide and he injured himself scrambling around trying to get down. Career over.

 

This happened on week 14 game when we were on a playoff run. RG3 was not trying to scramble. He was trying to get the 1st down on a designed run play. He was diving forward to get the 1st down. While he was doing that Ngata comes from his right side to tackle him and ends up hitting his knee with his helmet. This was a freak contact injury, because if RG3 gets hit on his thigh then the injury might have been less. RG3 is still in the NFL and ironically playing for a team where he got hurt. So really not career over yet.

 

My point is you can't baby a player and tuck him away. The Skins don't have this luxury. They didn't draft Haskins to sit on the bench the whole year. If they had a long term plan then they would have waited for the 2020 QB rich draft.

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, Cougarrick said:

Haskins can get his experience at the end of games and in practice just like every other QBs has. The cream always rises to the top. 

 

Because the Skins have a starting caliber QB to sit behind? Lol

[Mooka]

49 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

This happened on week 14 game when we were on a playoff run. RG3 was not trying to scramble. He was trying to get the 1st down on a designed run play. He was diving forward to get the 1st down. While he was doing that Ngata comes from his right side to tackle him and ends up hitting his knee with his helmet. This was a freak contact injury, because if RG3 gets hit on his thigh then the injury might have been less. RG3 is still in the NFL and ironically playing for a team where he got hurt. So really not career over yet.

 

Sounds a little off. Was definitely a pass where Robert was flushed out of the pocket.  (2-minute drill could've been both) 

 

But he's nowhere near a first down and plows head first into 2-3 defenders, all 3 of whom were in his vision. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkknStbIGcs 2:01:00) 

[Malapropismic Depository]

1 hour ago, zskins said:

 

Because the Skins have a starting caliber QB to sit behind? Lol

 

If you take the aggregate of our 3 QB's...then, yes.

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

6 hours ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

1. God, I hate it when people call young players "kid." You aren't weathered vet nor is this WWII. Let's all relax.

 

Come on Sandy, baby, loosen up, your too tight.

John Riggins

🥃Here’s to relaxin!

[Conn]

Jay is so close to a breakthrough but will never get there. 

 

He recognizes that his QB is put in a tough spot with 2nd- and 3rd-and-long situations. 

 

Doesn't see the correlation with his awful habit to run up the gut for 2-3 yards or less on 75% of first downs. 

[Malapropismic Depository]

7 hours ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

1. God, I hate it when people call young players "kid." You aren't weathered vet nor is this WWII. Let's all relax.

 

 

 

You have a suggestion on what we should call them, instead ?

[HigSkin]

 

[RandyHolt]

What I don't fully grasp is folks are worried about him getting hit too much. It will ruin him. We all understand that school of thinking.  But all things equal young players, should be more than able to take hits.  When a young RB gets stuffed up the gut over and over, does that ruin them? No.   Pummeled and swarmed over by half the D early and often. Heaven forbid a 230 pound 22 year old QB gets hit by one guy a few times a game, or popped 6 times every 7 days.

 

I feel like hits are overly blamed for making a QB fail. Playbook size and coach turnover seemingly goes completely un-scrutinized.  Dumbass play calls hurt many careers. Basically every position on the field has failed rookies yet hitting is never blamed for their failures. ALL QBs take their lumps every year. A Marino or Rypien aside.

 

Here's the thing. OLs suck everywhere outside of some elite programs. Chances are most every if not all QBs have dealt with crap pass pro low snaps blown blocking assignments 3rd and forevers their entire lives.  And gotten their clocks cleaned. Yet weren't ruined, right?   If they make it to the NFL chances are they have passed the hit test.

 

Check out Magic!

https://twitter.com/Ihartitz/status/1162563777952460800?s=20

[Veryoldschool]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

What I don't fully grasp is folks are worried about him getting hit too much. It will ruin him. We all understand that school of thinking.  But all things equal young players, should be more than able to take hits.  When a young RB gets stuffed up the gut over and over, does that ruin them? No.   Pummeled and swarmed over by half the D early and often. Heaven forbid a 230 pound 22 year old QB gets hit by one guy a few times a game, or popped 6 times every 7 days.

 

I feel like hits are overly blamed for making a QB fail. Playbook size and coach turnover seemingly goes completely un-scrutinized.  Dumbass play calls hurt many careers. Basically every position on the field has failed rookies yet hitting is never blamed for their failures. ALL QBs take their lumps every year. A Marino or Rypien aside.

 

Here's the thing. OLs suck everywhere outside of some elite programs. Chances are most every if not all QBs have dealt with crap pass pro low snaps blown blocking assignments 3rd and forevers their entire lives.  And gotten their clocks cleaned. Yet weren't ruined, right?   If they make it to the NFL chances are they have passed the hit test.

 

Check out Magic!

https://twitter.com/Ihartitz/status/1162563777952460800?s=20

 

I can't agree with you.  Let's start with the fact the quarterbacks are wearing smaller, lighter shoulder pads than running backs, that alone makes a difference.   Then, of course, the running back is moving forward crouching over in a protective posture and is attacking and picking the angle of contact with the slower more cumbersome linebacker, safety, lineman he hopes to buck and roll off unlike quarterback who is standing tall looking downfield for his receivers and is in a very vulnerable position when defensive linemen or blitzing linebackers crash into him.  A quarterback is at the mercy of the onrushing defenders if his protection fails. 

 

Finally, your running back comparison is misguided in another very important respect, a running back can sustain more injuries before their performance degrades.  As long as their legs are healthy enough to run and they can hold a ball they can play.  They can play with severe bruises, a gimpy ankle, jammed fingers, sprained wrists, sore shoulders and the like, in fact being bruised and sore is the norm for them even in high school.  Not so with the quarterbacks whose accuracy degrades with sprained wrists, jammed fingers, sore knees and the like.  It's not that QBs are softer guys than the running backs it takes real courage to trust the OL and focus downfield but as tough as they are to accurately throw the ball requires a relatively healthy body and a mostly clean jersey.  Not to mention their focus down the field evaporates the more they get hit and their effectiveness with it. 

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

QB’s either sink or swim, I’m not a believer in the ability to ruin a qbs psyche or ability because he played too early and didn’t have success or was sacked a lot or got hurt. It’s football he’s gonna get sacked and hit and throw picks and potentially get hurt.....If said experiences do result in a QB flaming out, he was never the one imo.

 

If you wanna take it a little slow as a precaution ok no problem, I can dig it.  But he clearly has the most talent in the QB room and he should be playing sooner than later. No later than week 4. I’d be totally fine starting him week one and going from there.  No better teacher than actually doing it, over and over and over.  #gonnaBsurprisedbySimba #intheplayoffmixyear1

#goodjuju

 

 

 

[RandyHolt]

7 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

I can't agree with you. ...

 

I suspect you are a victim of PRS (Patrick Ramsey Syndrome).  Almost suffering the same issue you fear all young QBs are at risk of, as a result of watching a terrible coach he endured.  Gun shy and thus remain veryoldschool in your thinking.  Times have changed, and significantly so. Coaches got tired of getting fired and became flexible. Maybe owners collectlively told coaches play the QBs the fans want to see, and figure out how to do it. Something changed and it started with Cam Newton.

 

Young QBs can now play and thrive, as they all absorb hits. They really can.  Those that survive took the same hits the ones that don't, did.  Nature over nurture, nature always wins.

 

If hits = failure we would have very easily compiled stats by now, proving it all out. The mystery of why some QBs sink and others swim, solved.

[KillBill26]

10 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

I feel like hits are overly blamed for making a QB fail.  

 

Yet weren't ruined, right?   

 

David Carr vehemently disagrees with you.

 

I agree with @Veryoldschool, a rb able to lower a shoulder at the point of contact and is able to recognize when contact is coming is different than a QB who is a sitting duck.  I know it's easy to say that it's vital for a QB to stand strong in the pocket and not hear the footsteps, but if a young QB is constantly getting hit, you absolutely do run the risk of it both mentally and physically affecting him negatively.  And with how poor our oline is going to be this year, it is not a factor that should be taken lightly in my opinion.

 

The sad thing is we all know it's very likely that the decision whether to play Haskins this year could be based on marketing / ticket sales rather than a purely football decision.  I wish Snyder would realize as long as you build a winning team, people will come.  So do it the right way, instead of throwing your shiny new toy into the fire prematurely.  I understand the argument that game reps helps a young players development, but when protection is weak and weapons are lacking, I think another year to work on footwork / protections / etc is best.  Hopefully next season he has a better surrounding cast along with aforementioned improvement on his end.

 

And as far as the times have changed argument since Carr and Ramsey were in the league, I know the NFL has more of a spread feel to it with quicker releases in general, but I don't feel the offenses we have seen in recent years from jay reflects an ability to shield the lack of protection for a young QB.  He will get hit and hit often.

[Veryoldschool]

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

 But he clearly has the most talent in the QB room and he should be playing sooner than later. No later than week 4. I’d be totally fine starting him week one and going from there.  No better teacher than actually doing it, over and over and over.  #gonnaBsurprisedbySimba #intheplayoffmixyear1

#goodjuju

 

Most talent in the QB room?  That is our hope but all we really know now is he has the strongest arm, that much is evident.   How much he is actually seeing and processing correctly we don't really know.  It appears to me he is understanding what he is seeing and in stark contrast to a QB we had in recent years who would drop back and stare down the field until he saw a guy break open because he wasn't able to process the field.  Haskins seems to be properly going through his progression but only the coaches know for sure.

 

I like what I see thus far it is very encouraging.  I want him to get opportunities in the preseason to play and apply what he has learned but I don't want to see the coaches rushing him to start before he has all the necessary knowledge to run the offense as designed.  If that means the coaches start him later in the year or wait until next year that is fine with me.

[Skinsinparadise]

20 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

How many first rounders even sit their rookie seasons?  Over the last 15 years, I bet we can count that group on the fingers of one hand.  Change the criteria to first rounders who sat for half the games their rookie seasons and it's still a very small number.  First rounders start as rookies because teams that pick QBs in the first round are almost always desperate for a body to be even remotely presentable as the starter for the upcoming season.  The majority of times it's a regime in their first year and there is no decent incumbent and there isn't even a real competition for the job.

 

Haskins's situation is different.  He got picked by a regime going into its sixth season. 

 

I posted the study a few pages back, I am too lazy to dig it back up, I don't recall if it was first and 2nd rounders, etc but I do recall it was more than a handful as to whatever criteria they used.   I was repeating Sheehan's argument not my own.   Otherwise here you are making the same point I did on this front.  I flat out said the context is different with Haskins than the standard college QB coming to the NFL.   And said so specifically to that study. 

 

There was some discussion in this thread about Cooley's take.  So I gave my impression of his argument and threw in his pal Sheehan into the mix too because they've discussed that study before together.  Cooley's point though had nothing to do with that study.   Cooley is of the school that quarterbacks learn from their ups and downs. And they can handle mentally the down moments and if they can't they aren't mentally tough enough to be franchise QBs anyway.  And he's met Haskins and thinks he's mentally tough.   Cooley wasn't in love with Haskins' tape from Ohio State but digs him more now than he did then because he thinks highly of his personality and mental make up.  

 

20 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Point is this situation that Haskins walked into is unique.  There is no prior analogous situation to reference or copy.  We need deal with Haskins's career and development on its own terms.  We do not have to succumb to the pressure to start Haskins early.  

 

As for people arguing pro or con starting Haskins -- I don't think succumbing to pressure is an operative point to either argument.  That's more of a side media narrative about whether Dan is going to feel compelled to sell tickets and push this forward.  I don't think that's guiding anyone's point in this discussion one way or another.

 

20 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

And beyond that, Dwayne hasn't earned the job in preseason and camp.  It'd be one thing if he had come into camp and killed it and displaced the vets in front of him naturally like Russell Wilson did.  But he didn't and he doesn't look ready in game action. 

 

One of your points is about how this situation is different.  I agree for the most part.  But there is some quirky context here that's also arguably different. 

 

Haskins hasn't according to most looked hot in training camp but neither has the other 2 QBs.  It's not like Case or Colt are burning up camp.  The other 2 QBs are more consistent in camp.  But Haskins has flashed more.  You can argue the same as to the first 2 preseason games.  Haskins naturally hasn't grabbed the reigns.  If you listen though to people covering camp, all three of them have had poor camps.  It matched what I saw too in camp. The difference is Haskins has an excuse for it since he's learning.  The other two?

 

My point is if Keenum or Colt struggles during the season.  And I expect they likely will.  And if Jay thinks Haskins is ready enough.  I'd start him in the Dolphins game which is in late October.  You are talking about playing him in December.  So I gather our difference is the span of 4 games as to when I'd start him -- depending on context at the time.  So our bottom line isn't far apart.  Your disagreement then would be more with Cooley who would like to start him much sooner than later.