Owls0325

!!!!0mgz!!!! Trent Williams finally showed up

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The longer this drags on, and the more that Trent Williams stonewalls, the more I'm convinced this was just an attempt to put the organization in a bad position to try and secure a new deal.  I'm not a Bruce Allen fan nor am I an apologist for the team (hate the mismanagement), but it just seems to me that Trent is not being completely forthright here.  

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4 minutes ago, nonniey said:

I guess I can (can't?) give a rats ass about what Trent did or didn't do. I just can't  get past what Allen did or didn't do. Total friggen ineptitude. Been more than a week since the trade deadline and am still steaming.

 

I'm with you. Players careers are short and they rarely have any kind of job that pays well that they can fall back on. I get that they have to get all they can while they are playing. 

 

It's the GM's job to focus on the short and long term results of the team. He's got to look at the situation for what it is, put his ego to aside then do what's best for the franchise. I've lost all faith in him doing that. 

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1 hour ago, JSSkinz said:

Definition of "Diagnose"

"identify the nature of (an illness or other problem) by examination of the symptoms.

 

Personally I wouldn't consider noticing that a player has enlarged or abnormally hard lymph nodes as a diagnosis but more of a recognition of a symptom that could be worrisome.

 

 


Sure, but doesn’t change a single thing about what I posted and really had nothing to do with it. Athletic Trainers are absolutely in a position to diagnose. They’re not totally uninvolved in it as was suggested earlier. We can get into the minutiae of the extent of their diagnosis or what happened in each specific case, but they are supposed to be trained in clinical diagnosis.

 

That is a fact to which was being disputed, which is what I was posting about. 

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12 hours ago, MartinC said:

If the condition persisted (which it clearly did) it would also be really strange if advice was not given (possibly by the athletic training staff) to seek a second opinion.


Yeah, that’s the part that really is intriguing. Even if they did at one point, they saw him many times after. Was it just a one time thing they didn’t keep on him about or did they stay on top of it? Was it mentioned passingly or downplayed when they’d tell him to get a second opinion or did they communicate how serious this could be?
 

We really don’t know.
 

And I don’t think Trent not wanting a medical review is a sure fire proof that he’d be in the wrong about it like many are suggesting. Again, it’s muddy. It sucks. 
 

Here’s what I do know. Larry Hess’s Training Staff has overseen a team with multiple times where it was highly questionable to allow a player to play or practice, only to see said player get injured, even re-injuring the same joint or muscle in the process. They’ve overseen a team with the highest amount of injuries two years in a row. Previous to that, they were almost always among the top of injury rates within the league. To think there’s no problem there, whether Trent is right or wrong, is naive at best. 
 

The problem with identifying them as the problem is just how murky each situation can be. There’s a million little ways they can do something wrong while it being technically (or legally) right. For instance, they can do all the tests that come back negative and proceed to tell a player that he’s fine to participate when he really shouldn’t be, yet. Say it’s his right knee that’s the issue. When said player injures his left foot because he was compensating too much, they can say, “well, it wasn’t the same leg prior to that, so we weren’t wrong”. 
 

How can one prove anything about that in terms of medical malpractice one way or another? It’s going to be damn near impossible. And that’s probably one of the clearest examples out of the many other, much more subtle, issues that can arise. 

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The way I see it, by disclosing information about his medical situation and accusing the team and its physicians of wrongdoing, Trent has opened the door to disclosure of his records (as a matter of fairness, and not in the legal sense).  These are very serious allegations and are sure to have a negative impact on the franchise and its ability to sign free agents.

 

This is akin to someone saying that they suffered severe injuries in car accident caused by the negligence of another driver, but then complaining when he is called upon disclose information that will likely confirm or refute the allegation of negligence.  He expects everyone to just take his word for it when there is objective evidence available.  Unacceptable when you have allegations like this.

Edited by kfrankie
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29 minutes ago, kfrankie said:

The way I see it, by disclosing information about his medical situation and accusing the team and its physicians of wrongdoing, Trent has opened the door to disclosure of his records (as a matter of fairness, and not in the legal sense).  These are very serious allegations and are sure to have a negative impact on the franchise and its ability to sign free agents.

 

This is akin to someone saying that they suffered severe injuries in car accident caused by the negligence of another driver, but then complaining when he is called upon disclose information that will likely confirm or refute the allegation of negligence.  He expects everyone to just take his word for it when there is objective evidence available.  Unacceptable when you have allegations like this.

 

Exactly.  Trent threw this bomb into the front office and now he wants nothing to do with it.  To me, the team should have the right to clear its name in this matter, if possible.  Trent wanting to put it all behind him is almost tantamount to him admitting that he was advised to seek another opinion and chose not to follow through.

 

It'll be interesting to see what the next step for the team is with this matter.

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30 minutes ago, sempre_victrix said:

Exactly.  Trent threw this bomb into the front office and now he wants nothing to do with it.  To me, the team should have the right to clear its name in this matter, if possible.  Trent wanting to put it all behind him is almost tantamount to him admitting that he was advised to seek another opinion and chose not to follow through.

 

It'll be interesting to see what the next step for the team is with this matter.

 

That's exactly why the team opened an investigation into their practices.  

 

Trent was always going to be limited as to what he could say while he's a part of this organization.  Anything he does say, could reduce his market and lower his asking price for the next landing spot.  Or it could cause the Redskins FO to further dig in and refuse to deal him at all.

 

The investigation is pointless to him, because he just wants to move on.  Whatever the outcome may be, do you really think that's going to change his mind?  What validation would he get, even if they do find wrongdoing?

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Does Trent accrue the year or not since he reported by week 10? Or is this headed to a final showdown in the courts with the players union involved? He's not practicing and failed the physical and is on record as saying he'll never play here again. He must think he has a case. Is Trent's agent trying to create a landmark case here? I don't see how he gets credit for a year served at this point?

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13 minutes ago, megared said:

 

That's exactly why the team opened an investigation into their practices.  

 

Trent was always going to be limited as to what he could say while he's a part of this organization.  Anything he does say, could reduce his market and lower his asking price for the next landing spot.  Or it could cause the Redskins FO to further dig in and refuse to deal him at all.

 

The investigation is pointless to him, because he just wants to move on.  Whatever the outcome may be, do you really think that's going to change his mind?  What validation would he get, even if they do find wrongdoing?

 

He's not coming back and I have no illusion that he will.  I don't want him any longer.

 

But as I said, he made serious allegations about the team and, bless his heart, I am now siding somewhat with the FO until he cooperates with the investigation.  His claims could jeopardize the teams ability to sign FAs in the future, not to mention leave the team with an unjustified history of not taking care of its players health.   He probably knows that there is a record of him being told to follow up with another doctor that he blew off and, by making these claims, could trip the conduct detrimental to the team clause in his contract.

 

He should have come back, taken his physical, and left again, sans bomb throwing press conference.

 

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Reposting something from a Sports Illustrated article I posted after Trent's press conference of sorts (my thoughts in burgundy):

 

The Legal Significance of Trent Williams's Health-Related Battle With Redskins

The seven-time Pro Bowl offensive tackle doesn't believe Redskins doctors treated him with proper care when facing a serious health issue.

 

"As retold by Williams, Redskins medical staff downplayed the condition as “something minor” and just a “cyst.” His comments also suggest that the team’s medical staff declined to order tests that would have revealed the seriousness of the condition. Williams went on to explain that team medical personnel eventually had the excess skin removed. When the skin was examined, the team learned that the cyst had a cancerous growth. The Redskins then sent Williams to see a specialist. By that point, the growth was “far more advanced.”

 

- In all honesty, I'm baffled as to why Trent is concerned if anyone involved in the above ends up losing their job. But that's just me and how I know I'd be dealing with things. But also and as it's been said by others on this thread, the seriousness of Trent's claims can NOT be emphasized enough. Whether or not Bruce should have traded Trent pales in comparison to what Trent was conveying about the medical staff. It absolutely needs to be looked into and reviewed whether true or not, and no matter the outcome.

 

 

The Redskins need to conduct interviews and fact-finding

It will likely take time for the Redskins to secure records and witness statements to help them better understand how the team interacted with Williams about his health. While Daniel Snyder has owned the Redskins for 20 years, the team has experienced significant turnover in leadership under his watch.

 

[...]In short, there are many persons employed by the Redskins who might have important insight on Williams’s allegations. The team will need to speak with those employees as well as former employees and also locate emails and other relevant records. How were Williams’s annual physicals conducted? Were important and necessary tests ordered? These are the types of questions the Redskins will explore.

 

Redskins officials will not automatically take the word of Williams. While his account might be accurate, he is not a neutral narrator of past events that involved him. Also, what Williams told the media in a brief locker room interview is not a complete record of facts.

 

 

- I'm wondering if Trent is more concerned with things like emails being discovered and leaked than by his health info being leaked.

 

 

Williams could sue the Redskins but would face several hurdles

Williams could explore the filing of a malpractice lawsuit against the Redskins. He could argue that the Redskins owed him a right to reasonable care, that he received unreasonable care and that he then suffered harm as a result of the team’s failure to satisfy its duties.

There would be several hurdles before a lawsuit could succeed.

 

As a starting point, Williams would need to first exhaust his potential remedies under his contract and the CBA. A court will not review a legal controversy until it is “ripe.” This obligates a plaintiff to first try to solve a perceived grievance through private remedies contemplated in contracts.

 

By seeking a review under the CBA, the Redskins have already begun a grievance process. This will need to play out before a court would likely consider any lawsuit by Williams.

 

- Ok, this part could be interesting...by refusing to take part in the independent review, does that mean Trent did NOT "exhaust potential remedies" under his contract and the CBA, and is basically giving up his right to sue?

 

 

Lastly, if the Redskins employ their medical staff as independent contractors, rather than as employees, Williams would have a more difficult time establishing liability on the part of the team. Although employer liability for independent contractors and employees is a complex topic, generally speaking, employers are not liable for the negligent actions of independent contractors whereas they are liable for such actions by employees, especially when those actions occur within the scope of employment.

 

- I keep thinking someone said the Skins' medical staff is independently run by a contractor and are not team employees. If so, I'm really confused as to what Trent feels Bruce's role in his healthcare would have been.

 

 

Here's the link for the article: https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/11/01/trent-williams-redskins-victim-medical-malpractice?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=themmqb&utm_medium=social

 

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10 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

 

 

- I'm wondering if Trent is more concerned with things like emails being discovered and leaked than by his health info being leaked.

 

 

This is a good point.  I've had a few clients in my career investigated for potential campaign law violations and some who were threatened with an investigation.    I am not sure how it works via the NFL but if its similar to my profession than the investigators have full access to your communications on said issues. 

 

I've never had a client found guilty of anything but 2 of them were raked through the coals publicly for emails that had nothing to do with the subject of the investigation.  Heck a colleague of mine in that process made the newspaper for making fun of a well known public figure's looks in a really graphic way.  😀

 

So yeah you can be talking about the subject in play but then go off on tangents, taking shots in the head of the moment (often in jest but no one knows it's in jest) or whatever.    Or you can get real personal about something that you don't want to go public.  On and on.  

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

This is a good point.  I've had a few clients in my career investigated for potential campaign law violations and some who were threatened with an investigation.    I am not sure how it works via the NFL but if its similar to my profession than the investigators have full access to your communications on said issues. 

 

I've never had a client found guilty of anything but 2 of them were raked through the coals publicly for emails that had nothing to do with the subject of the investigation.  Heck a colleague of mine in that process made the newspaper for making fun of a well known public figure's looks in a really graphic way.  😀

 

So yeah you can be talking about the subject in play but then go off on tangents, taking shots in the head of the moment (often in jest but no one knows it's in jest) or whatever.    Or you can get real personal about something that you don't want to go public.  On and on.  

 

 

Exactly, exactly, exactly lol...

 

And we're talking about Bruce and Dan here...nobody alive would be surprised by anything said about either of these guys in private emails. Hell, maybe even Callahan since he was Trent's position coach.

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9 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

 

Exactly, exactly, exactly lol...

 

And we're talking about Bruce and Dan here...nobody alive would be surprised by anything said about either of these guys in private emails. Hell, maybe even Callahan since he was Trent's position coach.

 

Yep.  I had one fellow consultant who hired a campaign lawyer to help settle a fairly minor investigation to avoid all the crazy things he said in email exchanges that would have gone public.  😀

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2 hours ago, sempre_victrix said:

But as I said, he made serious allegations about the team and, bless his heart, I am now siding somewhat with the FO until he cooperates with the investigation

 

There's absolutely zero upshot to him cooperating.  None at all.  Even if he validates why he wants out, and the Redskins get fined...he's now a persona non grata to front offices, medical staffs, etc.  How would that help him achieve his next mega deal?

 

2 hours ago, sempre_victrix said:

 

His claims could jeopardize the teams ability to sign FAs in the future, not to mention leave the team with an unjustified history of not taking care of its players health.   He probably knows that there is a record of him being told to follow up with another doctor that he blew off and, by making these claims, could trip the conduct detrimental to the team clause in his contract.

 

He should have come back, taken his physical, and left again, sans bomb throwing press conference.

 

 

Players know.  There's a reason teammates were supporting him while he was speaking.  Regardless of the outcome of THIS particular situation...look around.  I can think of at least two other glaring examples in the past season, that would not give me a warm & fuzzy about how well the training/medical staff are doing their jobs.  

 

Trent needed to say it, at this point.  And he could've gone public earlier.  It might've actually gotten him traded earlier. 

 

Or he could've shown up week 1 to collect a paycheck and still not play (I'm guessing the helmet discomfort would've precluded him then also).  

 

His actions to me speak of someone that wants to be done with the situation. 

 

I don't get with how badly everything else is managed with this organization, it's out of the realm of possibilities that they messed up here too.  Maybe not legally...but that's not the only threshold.  I guess I'd like to think a team I root for does right by the guys on the team.  Especially someone of his caliber.    

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3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yep.  I had one fellow consultant who hired a campaign lawyer to help settle a fairly minor investigation to avoid all the crazy things he said in email exchanges that would have gone public.  😀

 

I can only imagine lol...

 

I haven't experienced anything like you have, but I did go through a brief period 10 years ago where a client of mine was afraid that something in our emails might get used against him in an upcoming case. All of a sudden I'm combing through my emails and finding **** that made me go "Oh, damn" lol...Thankfully it never came to that.

 

 

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I have no idea what to think anymore. All I know is the fans are screwed. Again. The best player on our team has not played and will be traded for dimes on a dollar and we will never know why.  

Edited by Darrell Green Fan
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On 11/5/2019 at 4:40 AM, goskins10 said:

 

Blame is typically appropriate for both sides in most of these things. But the hate a vitriol headed towards Trent is gross. The name calling and hatred towards Trent has been disgusting. 

 

Not directed at you, just using this post as start off:

Fans seem to take it personal when a player does anything but make plays on the field. If they are not perfect humans then they are ridiculed and trashed beyond reason. On this thread the names Trent has been called are again, pure hate and ignorance. 

 

Until you have walked in the mans shoes you have no idea what he has gone through. Is he 100% innocent? No, of course not. But he is not some evil POS who has destroyed the team. That title has been very well earned by the FO - more specifically dan and bruce. 

I think that Trent is getting backlash because he is forcing us to defend the incompetent front office because of his outlandish claims. If things were as he said, everyone would be so willing to attack BA, but instead we have to defend because Trent's behavior is so off.

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28 minutes ago, Gerald362 said:

I think that Trent is getting backlash because he is forcing us to defend the incompetent front office because of his outlandish claims. If things were as he said, everyone would be so willing to attack BA, but instead we have to defend because Trent's behavior is so off.


I have to admit, it causes me a bit of confusion to actually defend the team in this case because it worries me that Brucie will try to somehow use it to defend his existence... even if this has zero to do with him other than TW wanting more money (which is what I’m sure this is ultimately about). 
 

If someone or some doctor misdiagnosed me or told me to walk it off or rub some dirt on it, and I legitimately had cancer I’d want that individual to never, ever, ever practice medicine again. As in never, whether for myself or to make sure no one else ever got mistreated by that individual. That’s why I think TW is lying and blowing this into something it’s not. It has been about money all this time. He knows it’s his only shot and the ‘Skins can’t legally counter publicly. It’s also why he won’t participate actively in any investigation, because he’s lying.

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If it was me and I was diagnosed with a deadly cancer after the team doctors said no biggie........think about that. You are looking at dying and leaving my family without a father, I am crushing that team doctor and suing the team for everything. No way I say "all good, nevermind lets move on". GTFOH.

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From what I have read about the condition he has (not TW specifically but the general condition itself), in its early stages it doesn't show up anything that would concern a doctor.  It can easily be mistaken for a simple 'skin condition' and it is only after some time that it shows up in such a way that diagnosis indicates that it is a cancer.  I can see that as how the FO and any medical support involved will argue this.  Very messy.

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