!!!!0mgz!!!! Trent Williams finally showed up

[ntotoro]

11 minutes ago, MartinC said:

You would not need a very big room to hold a 'Redskins fans loyal to Snyder' rally. Snyder is NOT this franchise - he just happens to currently own it.

 

I would guess a Don's John in one of the parking lots at FedEx Field should suffice.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

 

 

[ntotoro]

Can’t have it both ways, T-Willy. You can’t have the FO responsible for someone you claim put you in a life-or-death situation. 
 

Other words, stop lying.

[carex]

1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

 

 

 

 

 

that makes no sense!  In this situation the medical staff is the problem.  You can view the front office as bad for hiring them, but in that case you want both groups of them punished.  wonder how long the players are going to keep supporting him when they realize in this scenario he wants them to be treated by a subpar medical staff

[kfrankie]

Here's how I see this, best explained by way of analogy:

 

In this setup, the Redskins are like a parent to the fanbase.  Trent is also like a parent.  The fanbase is like their 10 year old child.  There is a bitter divorce taking place, and one parent has decided to leave (Trent).  The fanbase senses that things have gone badly but want things to go back to how they were. But Trent has openly announced his desire to cheat with another franchise.  And he wants to leave the fanbase behind, get a condo, and start a new life with this new big-boobed franchise and forget about us.  So we hate him for that.  We're sticking with franchise.  

[SkinsFTW]

7 minutes ago, kfrankie said:

And he wants to leave the fanbase behind, get a condo, and start a new life with this new big-boobed franchise and forget about us.  So we hate him for that.  We're sticking with franchise.  

 

But Mom's dying of gonoherpacyphilaids and won't get out of bed.

[Destino]

On 11/5/2019 at 1:47 PM, MartinC said:

You would not need a very big room to hold a 'Redskins fans loyal to Snyder' rally. Snyder is NOT this franchise - he just happens to currently own it.

 

Wishing with all my heart that Snyder would sell and take Allen with him does not however mean I assume that they are 100% to blame for every situation that comes along.

Small room, indeed.  This town has strong feelings towards Dan Snyder, but it certainly isn’t a sense of loyalty.  I doubt he even feels comfortable walking down a street in DC at this point for fear of being jeered by some random passerby.  

 

 

[TSO]

15 hours ago, MartinC said:

 

I know you didn't ask me but the answer is no. And its important people understand this.

 

The training staff and strength and conditioning are Redskins employees and inhouse. As is typical the medical staff are private practice doctors who are contracted to work for the Redskins.

 

The inhouse training staff would have had zero involvement in a diagnosis for a skin growth.

This is mostly true, and I’ve tried to detail the differences multiple times in this thread so I can’t tell you how appreciative I am that you’re doing it here, but the last part of your statement (bolded) might not be the case. In fact, it’s very likely it isn’t. 
 

Athletic Trainers are absolutely involved in clinical diagnosis. Now, it varies in terms of what level of Athletic Trainer you have hired and what degree of education they’ve reached, but they’re definitely involved in this. 
 

Here’s more on what they do: 

 

Quote

What is athletic training?

Athletic training encompasses the prevention, examination, diagnosis, treatment and rehabilitation of emergent, acute or chronic injuries and medical conditions. Athletic training is recognized by the American Medical Association (AMA), Health Resources Services Administration (HRSA) and the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) as an allied health care profession.

 

Who are athletic trainers?

Athletic trainers (ATs) are highly qualified, multi-skilled health care professionals who render service or treatment, under the direction of or in collaboration with a physician, in accordance with their education, training and the state's statutes, rules and regulations.  As a part of the health care team, services provided by athletic trainers include primary care, injury and illness prevention, wellness promotion and education, emergent care, examination and clinical diagnosis, therapeutic intervention and rehabilitation of injuries and medical conditions.  The NATA Code of Ethics states the principles of ethical behavior that should be followed in the practice of athletic training.

 

Athletic trainers are sometimes confused with personal trainers. There is, however, a large difference in the education, skillset, job duties and patients of an athletic trainer and a personal trainer. The athletic training academic curriculum and clinical training follows the medical model.

 

Athletic trainers must graduate from an accredited baccalaureate or master’s program, and 70% of ATs have a master’s degree. Learn more about the education of athletic trainers.

https://www.nata.org/about/athletic-training

Notice here they mention that Athletic Training is recognized as an “Allied Health Profession”. Here’s what that means: 

 

Quote

Allied health encompasses a broad group of health professionals who use scientific principles and evidence-based practice for the diagnosis, evaluation and treatment of acute and chronic diseases; promote disease prevention and wellness for optimum health, and apply administration and management skills to support health care systems in a variety of settings.

 

The professions included as allied health vary from country to country; however, estimates have suggested that as much as 60% of the U.S. healthcare workforce may be classified as allied health.Allied health plays an essential role in the delivery of health care and related services in the U.S. and throughout the world.

 

Allied health professionals are concerned with the identification, diagnostic evaluation, and treatment of acute and chronic diseases and disorders; provision of dietary and nutrition services; rehabilitation services; and the management and operation of health systems. Allied health professionals apply scientific principles and evidence-based practice in order to optimize patient or client outcomes.  Allied health professionals must also attend to the prevention of disease and the management of patients with chronic disease. Thus, the scope of allied health practice extends to the individual, the family, the community and to public education; many allied health professions specialize in the promotion of optimum function and health and the improvement of health-related quality of life. In addition, heath care administration and health systems management are important components of allied health.

http://www.asahp.org/what-is

So they definitely are in a position for “clinical diagnosis”. Exactly how far they can go with that is going to be limited by their own education, but they can certainly give tentative diagnoses until a specialist confirms. 
 

If you look at the timeline for Eric Berry’s cancer diagnosis back in 2014, it’s extremely likely that the Chiefs Head Athletic Trainer, Rich Burkholder, was (at the very least) directly involved in the diagnosis and (at most) was the one who diagnosed it. It’s hard to tell, though, as no clear indication is given about it. At least not one I found.

Trent’s recent issue (right or wrong) seems to be exclusively tied to the Athletic Training Staff lead by Larry Hess. My opinion is he’s probably got a lot more he’s pissed about in terms of his injuries than this one, but this was the grand cherry on the top which set him off. But I digress... 

 

Everything he’s said (including the majority of second hand accounts we were getting before he spoke), indicates that’s where his issue lies. When he talks about the medical staff and the physicians Dan sent him to, it’s basically regarding them correctly diagnosing it and performing the required surgeries. 

 

This is definitely a muddy situation though. Athletic Trainers can have a wide range of qualifications, some pretty basic and some very advanced in terms of medical knowledge. That might actually be the problem in and of itself, in that Larry Hess or whoever is on that staff under him isn’t very qualified, yet talk to players like they are. 

[ClaytoAli]

7 hours ago, kfrankie said:

But Trent has openly announced his desire to cheat with another franchise.  And he wants to leave the fanbase behind, get a condo, and start a new life with this new big-booty franchise and forget about us.  So we hate him for that.  We're sticking with franchise.  

 

Fixed!

[Darrell Green Fan]

19 hours ago, veteranskinsfan said:

Sheehan said on his morning show today that he is starting to think that Williams has not been totally honest about what happened.

He cannot understand why Williams does not want his medical records examined by an independent group.   He is siding with Casserly

statements that Williams was told to get a second opinion three years ago.  He said the Skins training staff won an award for best NFL

training staff last year.

 

Yeah all of this has me reconsidering my position. I was in the camp that will always side with the player over this dumpster fire of an organization. But there are certainly a lot of questions here. Sheehan (who I'm really glad is back on 980) also pointed out if the team doctors were so negligent he would be suing for malpractice,  

[SkinsGuy]

51 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Yeah all of this has me reconsidering my position. I was in the camp that will always side with the player over this dumpster fire of an organization. But there are certainly a lot of questions here. Sheehan (who I'm really glad is back on 980) also pointed out if the team doctors were so negligent he would be suing for malpractice,  

 

I agree.

 

There is something not right here about Williams' position.

 

Why is he telling the NFLPA to not take part in an investigation and just drop the whole thing?

 

He felt strongly enough about it before to stage a very public holdout. Now he suddenly just wants it all dropped, and just "move on" from it?

 

It doesn't add up.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Trent Williams decides against a joint committee to review his medical records

Posted by Mike Florio on November 6, 2019, 9:58 AM EST

Getty Images

The NFL and NFL Players Association will not be conducting a joint review of Trent Williams‘ medical records, after all.

Via the Washington Post, the Washington left tackle has directed the NFLPA not to participate in the joint review. Per the report, the union never agreed the review, contrary to the prior proclamation from the TV network owned by the NFL that a joint committee would be convened.

The NFLPA dropped a clear hint that Williams could be inclined not to authorize the joint committee review process, based on the first line of a statement issued on Sunday morning: “In our multiple conversations with Trent and his agent, we have considered various options based on the facts, but we also understand that Trent wants to put this all behind him, not relive a painful experience when his life was in danger and move on with his career.”

On Monday NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith echoed the notion that Williams may simply want to move on during an appearance with The Junkies on 106.7 The Fan in D.C.

“If a player decides that he wants to move on and put stuff behind him we understand the situation and in many cases, abide by the player’s wishes, my only point is I don’t like a scenario where we believe, where we see private medical information being leaked into the media we don’t like disinformation about a player’s healthcare or any issue about a player’s healthcare being discussed by some other party,” Smith said.

Some will assume that Williams’ decision to move on flows from a concern that the truth will undercut his claim that team doctors negligently failed to diagnose and treat a growth on his skull that was cancerous. That position is boosted by the recent ravings of former Washington G.M. Charley Casserly, who insisted that Williams failed to schedule a biopsy three years ago and then claimed this is all about money. (As explained on Sunday, however, Casserly’s get-off-my-lawn logic quickly falls apart in light of the fact that Williams was regularly in the presence of team doctors and trainers in the three years after allegedly failing to schedule the biopsy.)

But consider this: What would Williams gain from a joint committee review of his medical records? Any discipline imposed on Washington would be in the form of a fine, and any disclosure of his medical information would carry with it the very real risk that someone with the team or the league would share, in general or specific terms, information (or misinformation) about the contents of Williams’ chart to NFL Network.

Also, the joint committee would give Washington and its doctors a great opportunity to engage in some advance discovery, in the event that Williams pursues whatever options may be available to him within the confines of the justice system. While the league and the team surely would enjoy immunity from a malpractice claim, team doctors are almost always independent — and thus potentially would have exposure regardless of any CBA protections that would encompass the franchise.

[zCommander]

12 hours ago, carex said:

 

that makes no sense!  In this situation the medical staff is the problem.  You can view the front office as bad for hiring them, but in that case you want both groups of them punished.  wonder how long the players are going to keep supporting him when they realize in this scenario he wants them to be treated by a subpar medical staff

 

Trent said that months ago. He wanted upper management for not getting him the help sooner or whatever (don't remember his exact words) and didn't want the medical staff losing their job because it was not their fault. The question is what did Trent want and Bruce didn't give him?

 

Don't think the medical staff is sub-par. 

 

 

[Mr. Sinister]

11 hours ago, Destino said:

Small room, indeed.  This town has strong feelings towards Dan Snyder, but it certainly isn’t a sense of loyalty.  I doubt he even feels comfortable walking down a street in DC at this point for fear of being jeered by the random passerby.  

 

 

 

Not gonna lie, I'd be tempted to go Dark Ages and throw a jar of piss/goats blood at him.

[MartinC]

6 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

This is definitely a muddy situation though. Athletic Trainers can have a wide range of qualifications, some pretty basic and some very advanced in terms of medical knowledge. That might actually be the problem in and of itself, in that Larry Hess or whoever is on that staff under him isn’t very qualified, yet talk to players like they are. 

 

All good information and as you say muddy. It is possible an athletic trainer noticed the initial skin condition - but at that point I would be amazed if he was not referred to one of the teams contracted medical staff for a further examination and likely a scan of some kind. At that point this would be in the hands of the medical team not the athletic training staff. I would also be very surprised if an outside specialist was not involved in the final diagnosis. I am reasonably sure that no member of the athletic training staff would have been involved in that final diagnosis.

 

If the condition persisted (which it clearly did) it would also be really strange if advice was not given (possibly by the athletic training staff) to seek a second opinion.

5 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Not gonna lie, I'd be tempted to go Dark Ages and throw a jar of piss/goats blood at him.

 

Just make sure its cold. Would not want to provide any warmth.

[MartinC]

56 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

That position is boosted by the recent ravings of former Washington G.M. Charley Casserly, who insisted that Williams failed to schedule a biopsy three years ago and then claimed this is all about money. (As explained on Sunday, however, Casserly’s get-off-my-lawn logic quickly falls apart in light of the fact that Williams was regularly in the presence of team doctors and trainers in the three years after allegedly failing to schedule the biopsy.)

 

We should probably consider some kind of rule about quoting Florio on this board - he rarely adds any value and his positions are normally transparently anti the team. (Only joking @BatteredFanSyndrome - this was perfectly reasonable to quote).

 

But let's just examine the section above. First - 'ravings'? I think we can sense where this is heading from that pejorative start. Then lets pick apart Florios logic - he is inferring that the fact that Williams was at the team for three years after failing to follow alleged advice to seek a second opinion somehow means it's not possible that advice was given. Really?

 

How does that work as a logical position? Do players (or anyone) always follow the advice given by medical professionals? No. Do the team doctors or the team have the ability to compel Williams to seek a second opinion? No. Florios position here is nonsense.

 

He raises a reasonable point about what would Williams have to gain from an independant review. The obvious answer is confirmation he is telling the truth but these things tend to get muddy and its entirely reasonable for the player and his agent to feel that there really is not much to be gained. But then wouldn't it also be reasonable - and balanced - to ask what does Williams have to lose (assuming he is telling the truth that is).

 

In summary a typical Florio hit piece on the Redskins which adds no new information and even less logical thought to the subject.

[Nerm]

I don't really have an opinion about the validity of Trent's claims, or what blame falls on him vs the medical staff.  But, I don't think his desire to avoid an evaluation of the medical issues automatically indicates that he is not being truthful.  I talk with a lot of people that have changed medical providers because of misdiagnosis or failing to address various medical conditions.  I almost never see those people want their former doctors to be disciplined or lose their jobs.  The patient usually just wants to switch to a doctor they trust more, not to have the past medical decisions to be evaluated by a commission.  I just don't see his failure to sue or have people punished as an admission that Trent is making stuff up.  It may be that he just wants to move on to someone he trusts more, just like 95% of other people who switch doctors because they were not happy with their treatment.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

"But consider this: What would Williams gain from a joint committee review of his medical records? Any discipline imposed on Washington would be in the form of a fine, and any disclosure of his medical information would carry with it the very real risk that someone with the team or the league would share, in general or specific terms, information (or misinformation) about the contents of Williams’ chart to NFL Network."

 

We don't know what discipline would be imposed on "upper management" though, because we don't know what it is upper management is supposed to have done. And we can't know that without a 3rd party review of Trent's case. Which he doesn't want.

 

As of right now, nobody has even bothered speculating with any real seriousness exactly what Bruce's role was in Trent's medical issues, if anything. We know what his role is in terms of salary negotiations and trade talks. But what does he do in terms of player health decisions?

 

And as of right now, we've heard three different reasons for Trent not wanting to go through with the 3rd party review:

- he doesn't want to relive a painful and frightening experience and just wants to move on with his career (NFLPA)

- he doesn't want doctors and the "little people" on the med staff to lose their jobs (WaPo guy)

- he doesn't want to chance having his private medical records leaked to NFL Network (Florio)

 

Since NFL players seem to ALWAYS have their medical and health problems discussed publicly (I detailed some of the stuff written just about Alex Smith and his broken leg several pages ago), if I were Trent that third reason given by Florio wouldn't keep me from seeing those who should be held accountable get scrutiny for their actions. And it's not as if Trent hasn't already publicly discussed his bout with cancer and what needed to be done. I'd better understand his reluctance to revisit the episode or fear of having his health issues made public if he had come back to the Redskins and only said "I'm wanting to move on from this and put it in my past, and get on with my career."  But as we all know, he said a ****-ton more than that.

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

19 minutes ago, MartinC said:

We should probably consider some kind of rule about quoting Florio on this board - he rarely adds any value and his positions are normally transparently anti the team. (Only joking @BatteredFanSyndrome - this was perfectly reasonable to quote).

 

Wouldn't citing anything that Charlie Casserley says be of the same vein, only being Pro-Skins?

 

Every time I see that dude on television, there is some pro-Skins spin to whatever it is he's talking about or 'reporting' on.

[MartinC]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

Wouldn't citing anything that Charlie Casserley says be of the same vein, only being Pro-Skins?

 

Every time I see that dude on television, there is some pro-Skins spin to whatever it is he's talking about or 'reporting' on.

 

Totally fair - consider the source is always a good thing to do. 

[Unbias]

15 hours ago, carex said:

that makes no sense!

 

I think Trent is just trying to create a massive headache for Bruce Allen. He met with him before training camp, let him know his wishes (trade/released) and when Bruce choose to go a different direction now Trent is going nuclear. As fans this is probably the most frustrating, but there are many recent situations that come to mind: 

 

Khawai in San Antonio - I think this was the tipping point for the modern day hold out. Different sport, but has relevance especially with the medical staff linkage to Trent. 

Bell in Pitt - Sat out, forced team to cut him

Brown in Pitt - forced trade

Brown in OAK/LV - forced team to cut him

Brown in NE - Got too good at getting cut. Got cut again. 

Thomas in NO - forced early extension

Zeke in Dallas - forced early extension

Clowney in Hou - forced trade

Ramsey in Jack - forced trade

 

Anyway, my point is that players are using their leverage in ways where they don't care too much about the short term financial/brand pain. We as fans are constantly confused and eventually just want it all to go away. In this situation Allen isn't giving in, which some feel is noble, but ultimately we all have to start looking forward as to what's best for the future. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, Nerm said:

I don't really have an opinion about the validity of Trent's claims, or what blame falls on him vs the medical staff.  But, I don't think his desire to avoid an evaluation of the medical issues automatically indicates that he is not being truthful.  I talk with a lot of people that have changed medical providers because of misdiagnosis or failing to address various medical conditions.  I almost never see those people want their former doctors to be disciplined or lose their jobs.  The patient usually just wants to switch to a doctor they trust more, not to have the past medical decisions to be evaluated by a commission.  I just don't see his failure to sue or have people punished as an admission that Trent is making stuff up.  It may be that he just wants to move on to someone he trusts more, just like 95% of other people who switch doctors because they were not happy with their treatment.

 

 

How many of those people you talk with, though, have also talked with the media about their medical issues and how they almost died because of them and the distrust that has formed as a result? If Trent had kept things to himself I'd be more inclined to your way of thinking...

[nonniey]

I guess I can (can't?) give a rats ass about what Trent did or didn't do. I just can't  get past what Allen did or didn't do. Total friggen ineptitude. Been more than a week since the trade deadline and am still steaming.

[JSSkinz]

8 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

it’s extremely likely that the Chiefs Head Athletic Trainer, Rich Burkholder, was (at the very least) directly involved in the diagnosis and (at most) was the one who diagnosed it.

Definition of "Diagnose"

"identify the nature of (an illness or other problem) by examination of the symptoms.

 

Personally I wouldn't consider noticing that a player has enlarged or abnormally hard lymph nodes as a diagnosis but more of a recognition of a symptom that could be worrisome.

 

 

[PartyPosse]

If Trent isn't being truthful then I’d do whatever to get a review of the whole situation. As it looks now it reflects badly on the organization and undoubtedly would have a major effect on future players wanting to come here.