Was Letting DJax Leave via FA a Mistake???

[bobandweave]

1 hour ago, beachboy757 said:

Are we gonna do this after every loss? Wondering if it was a mistake to get rid of D Jax, Kirk, Garcon, and McVay?  Comparing stats weekly? Ignoring they all left for more money and/or what they perceived to be a better situation for them? 

 

Truth is that if Snyder had a clue then the fact they let go so many difference makers in the league today - Scott, Desean, Sean, Pierre, Kirk - as well as refusing to sign difference makers like Wade Phillips as Defensive cordinator and to a lesser degree Dez Bryant, should be asked today.

 

Snyder opened himself up to this sort of criticism. He allowed these moves to be made, he decided to stand by and destroy one of the most explosive offensives this teams seen since 1991. And this decision of letting Desean go rests on his shoulders. He should be judged by these moves.

 

I bet that if Kirk wins the Super Bowl more of these types of questions will be asked about the fact he sat by and allowed this team to become a farm system for other teams and didn’t keep it together. It was his job to build AND keep it together. If he thinks he’s innocent he is wrong. He got one part right, he built it. But decisions like signing Josh Norman and Jordan Reed to expensive deals which had a rippling effect on the future of the team were bad moves he allowed to happen. 

 

We all know Bruce Allen is garbage but not enough say Snyder is the worst owner this teams ever had. It’s dereliction of his duty to build something and then throw it away. He has no leadership and he is the root cause of this

[Burgold]

Letting both go at the same time was a mistake. It was turning a strength into a question mark. You were gambling that both Doctson, a first rounder with no track record coming off an injury bad enough to erase his rookie year and a converted QB were good enough. I think they thought that Crowder, Reed, and Thompson were sure things enough. Clearly, because of injuries and other factors they were not.

[JSSkinz]

I think we wanted to go after Robinson or Landry but were caught off-guard when Landry was traded and then we were just too cheap to have a chance at signing Robinson.

 

I would have taken either one of those guys over DJAX based on age, talent, and size/blocking ability, that's the move we should have made especially after letting Kirk go and knowing we had the money.

[megared]

1 hour ago, Why am I Mr. Pink? said:

In his 7 seasons elsewhere, he cracked 1k yards 3 times.

 

I feel like we are over glorifying D Jax here a bit. Hes a nice piece, that we used as effectively as any time in his career .. but hes limited and aint worth 12.5M now or going forward.

 

That's cherry-picking. Of the 8 seasons he didn't miss substantial time, he was at or near 1k for 6 of those seasons.  He doesn't need to catch the ball 100 times/season if he's a league leader in yards per catch.  No one has ever confused him for a possession receiver.     

RECEIVING STATS
SEASON	TEAM	GP	REC	TGTS	YDS	AVG	LNG	TD	FD	FUM	LST
2008	PHI	16	62	121	912	14.7	60	2	43	1	0
2009	PHI	15	62	117	1,156	18.6	71	9	40	2	1
2010	PHI	14	47	97	1,056	22.5	91	6	33	2	1
2011	PHI	15	58	104	961	16.6	62	4	39	0	0
2012	PHI	11	45	85	700	15.6	77	2	30	1	0
2013	PHI	16	82	126	1,332	16.2	61	9	60	1	0
2014	WSH	15	56	94	1,169	20.9	81	6	35	0	0
2015	WSH	10	30	49	528	17.6	77	4	15	0	0
2016	WSH	15	56	100	1,005	17.9	80	4	35	0	0
2017	TB	14	50	91	668	13.4	41	3	36	0	0
2018	TB	2	9	9	275	30.6	75	3	8	0	0
Career		143	557	993	9,762	17.5	91	52	374	7	2

[Burgold]

20 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

 

I bet that if Kirk wins the Super Bowl more of these types of questions will be asked about the fact he sat by and allowed this team to become a farm system for other teams and didn’t keep it together. It was his job to build AND keep it together. If he thinks he’s innocent he is wrong. He got one part right, he built it. But decisions like signing Josh Norman and Jordan Reed to expensive deals which had a rippling effect on the future of the team were bad moves he allowed to happen. 

 

The good news is that for the longest time, we recruited and drafted so badly that none of our castoffs were even good enough to be back ups on other teams. They just fell into obscurity. The bad news is... we've let a few too many good ones get away without replacing them with equal or superior options.

 

It's okay for the Chiefs to let a very solid Smith go if they have a Maholmes waiting in the wings.  It's not so good to let Jackson and Garcon go for... Pryor and Doctson. Mind you, part of this is hindsight, but if Doctson worked out then letting one of Jackson/Garcon wouldn't have looked so bad, but... again trading a known for a question mark (Garcon for Pryor) is pretty dangerous.

[beachboy757]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

No m, but the mistake we made with all if them is that we didn't need them enough to try to keep them.  That basically was the offense that got a playoff berth, and they all walked out the door while we claimed we di as good it better without them, and no plan B.

 

Discussion forum, btw, expected us to discuss the suck when we suck.

I get that it is a discussion board obviously. I think we all miss Garcon and D Jax but I don't see how it was a mistake? Unless you believe they would have carried us into the playoffs and Superbowl the last two seasons. 

 

This just seems reactionary and something that brings the fan morale down even more when we already are down about the loss. 

 

 

[ixcuincle]

The reason DJax was not retained was A) he was getting up there in age and B. people felt like he was not as much a threat in the red zone as he could have been. Remember, we were looking in that offseason for guys like Pryor and Quick who could jump up and catch the ball in the red zone. D Jax was good for long breakaway plays but red zone offense was sputtering and the team gambled that they might have to move on. 

 

I don't recall D Jax doing much in TB last year but this year man he had a 75 yard play from the start and everyone is like THERE HE IS well I want to see him do that more consistently. I don't know at this point if it's a good decision to let him go. 

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

49 minutes ago, megared said:

 

That's cherry-picking. Of the 8 seasons he didn't miss substantial time, he was at or near 1k for 6 of those seasons.  He doesn't need to catch the ball 100 times/season if he's a league leader in yards per catch.  No one has ever confused him for a possession receiver.     

RECEIVING STATS
SEASON	TEAM	GP	REC	TGTS	YDS	AVG	LNG	TD	FD	FUM	LST
2008	PHI	16	62	121	912	14.7	60	2	43	1	0
2009	PHI	15	62	117	1,156	18.6	71	9	40	2	1
2010	PHI	14	47	97	1,056	22.5	91	6	33	2	1
2011	PHI	15	58	104	961	16.6	62	4	39	0	0
2012	PHI	11	45	85	700	15.6	77	2	30	1	0
2013	PHI	16	82	126	1,332	16.2	61	9	60	1	0
2014	WSH	15	56	94	1,169	20.9	81	6	35	0	0
2015	WSH	10	30	49	528	17.6	77	4	15	0	0
2016	WSH	15	56	100	1,005	17.9	80	4	35	0	0
2017	TB	14	50	91	668	13.4	41	3	36	0	0
2018	TB	2	9	9	275	30.6	75	3	8	0	0
Career		143	557	993	9,762	17.5	91	52	374	7	2

 

Thats cherry picking. Changing the parameters of what I said to include "at or near" so you could add the 912 yd and 961 yd season as counting as a 1k or more. Using the same logic, someone could argue that the 1,056 yd and 1,005 yd seasons shouldnt count as 1k seasons and that just seems silly.

 

(im just having fun, dont want to micro analyze what "cherry picking" means in re to a non-skins player -- cheers)

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

I’m not going back 2 years with the woulda coulda shoulda game. The present is the most pressing matter. Deal with your situation as it currently stands and make the best of it.

[Renegade7]

46 minutes ago, beachboy757 said:

I get that it is a discussion board obviously. I think we all miss Garcon and D Jax but I don't see how it was a mistake? Unless you believe they would have carried us into the playoffs and Superbowl the last two seasons. 

 

This just seems reactionary and something that brings the fan morale down even more when we already are down about the loss. 

 

 

 

Considering we were right on the line last year, DJax probably does push us right up to maybe over the line for a wildcard.

 

Why does every discussion on players we debate on getting come back to "do they take us over the top or make us a playoff team"?  It's a 53 man roster, talent is accumulative, we shouldn't be looking at these moves in a vacuum. 

 

We're in win now mode without win now talent, asking DJax outs us over the to is the wrong question because he's only one player.  His contract doesn't look like it was so unreasonable that we couldn't get other players, and better believe we need more players if DJax caliber to get in the conversation.

 

You got a lot of nerve talking about fan morale right now.  If you got some good news to build after that loss, go start your own thread.  I already said this thread may be early, but I enjoy talking with y'all about this and wanted to see if anyone felt the same way.  Obviously we do.

[megared]

26 minutes ago, beachboy757 said:

I get that it is a discussion board obviously. I think we all miss Garcon and D Jax but I don't see how it was a mistake? Unless you believe they would have carried us into the playoffs and Superbowl the last two seasons. 

 

This just seems reactionary and something that brings the fan morale down even more when we already are down about the loss. 

 

 

 

Isn't that the goal of the front office?  Had the FO not positioned themselves for winning now, it would actually be an understandable position.  "We want to rebuild, so ~$11 M/per is too much". 

 

But have we rebuilt the position since they departed, or allocated that money smartly elsewhere?  No, we picked up a bunch of never-have-beens and had to listen to our FO imply nothing was lost.  Well that savings isn't translating into a better team.

 

Don't talk about D Jax's age then not acknowledge that your opinion is currently looking to be on pretty shaky ground.  Nothing this guy is showing indicates he's slowed down.  As a matter of fact, the people that were hesitant on giving him another contract were wrong...because the Bucs can cut ties after this season with zero cap penalty.  If not, next season is the last year of his current deal, and he'd make a reasonable $10 M.  We on the other hand, are stuck paying P-Rich until 2023.  

 

Everyone that said it was a bad decision to let him go are being vindicated for two reasons:

 

Our WR group appears to be one of the worst in the NFL

Jackson is looking dominant

 

[beachboy757]

11 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

You got a lot of nerve talking about fan morale right now.  If you got some good news to build after that loss, go start your own thread.  I already said this thread may be early, but I enjoy talking with y'all about this and wanted to see if anyone felt the same way.  Obviously we do.

Not sure why you are being aggressive and telling me to start my own thread? I was only asking if this is something we will do with each loss and was stating my opinion that it felt reactionary. 

 

I actually like your insight on the board even though I don't agree with it all. So I'm just gonna back out of this discussion and watch. 

[Renegade7]

6 minutes ago, beachboy757 said:

Not sure why you are being aggressive and telling me to start my own thread? I was only asking if this is something we will do with each loss and was stating my opinion that it felt reactionary. 

 

I actually like your insight on the board even though I don't agree with it all. So I'm just gonna back out of this discussion and watch. 

Sorry about that, I don't think I took it the way you meant it. 

 

I know I have no intent on starting a new thread on something else I'm upset about every week, I jus also know someone else will and there really isn't another place to it (extremeskins, remember? : )

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, ixcuincle said:

.....this year man he had a 75 yard play from the start and everyone is like THERE HE IS well I want to see him do that more consistently. I don't know at this point if it's a good decision to let him go. 

 

He had quiet a few long yards here too. We were all like can't believe the Eagles let him go. And then there were time where Kirk would over throw to him on a long bomb and we be like damn that was a TD. Maybe he wanted out because he was not getting the ball as much as he wanted and didn't trust Kirk anymore. 

[bobandweave]

1 hour ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

I’m not going back 2 years with the woulda coulda shoulda game. The present is the most pressing matter. Deal with your situation as it currently stands and make the best of it.

 

The discussion will not end anytime soon imo. The better that the Rams do the more stupid it looks we let Sean go. The more 75 yard TDs Desean catches the same. The more wins Kirk gets and the more losses the Redskins earn the same. 

 

I agree to an extent with what your saying. Nothing can be done to change anything now so it is talking spilt milk.

 

However this topic underlines how badly this teams been run under Bruce Allen and Snyder’s leadership which is the core of the problem. Since the core is rotten until they are discarded the less butts in seats they will have which is the only way to get the attention of the owner. This is the process for change, not saying what’s done is done so move on. The fan base has to keep talking about this or it will never change Imo

[Chachie]

17 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

 Saying we weren't winning, man, there was a lot of factors to that.  As a piece of the puzzle instead of supposed to be saving the franchise, he's perfect, and that's what he's doing in Tampa.  Evans is their #1.

 

 

I see your point.

 

My "we weren't winning" comment was just meant to express that we were so mediocre that he alone could not save us, even as a piece of the puzzle. Our problems were (and are probably STILL) to great to worry about having him around now. 

 

I wanted DeSean when we first got him. I defended him here on ES when others hated him. I grew over time to see their points about his worth or lack there of. He wasn't setting Tampa on fire with Winston so he's probably benefitting from Fitzpatrick's presence. However, like Fitz does everywhere he goes, his magic will fade after the Bucs name him the true starter. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

It wasn’t a mistake to let them go because you don’t give aging and declining WRs as much money as they both wanted when we had other holes to fill. 

 

The mistake was how we planned on replacing their production which was an outright failure. Fortunately we had a QB that was still very good -> great without a stellar supporting cast but we let him go too. Now we have an average QB and below average talent at WR 

 

Letting DJax go was the right decision and it’s one competent and forward thinking franchises do. It’s just once in a blue moon that we do something that smart so we used up all our good ideas there and had nothing left afterward 

[nonniey]

19 hours ago, tshile said:

Can smith even get Jackson the ball?......

Well that is related to a whole other bigger snafu that we've beaten to the bone.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

I've always thought letting him go was the right move, still do.  We were not in a position to pay what the market would dictate, and given his injury history and age, it made sense.  What did not make any sense was letting Garcon walk too, specifically because he wanted us to negotiate a contract with him and we definitely could have afforded to bring him back.  

 

I loved DJax here and hated he left, but that's just business.  And for the record, drafting Doctson was horrible and waste of a first round pick.  I was against that pick from the start and still hate it.  We could have grabbed Kenny Clark at NT or other players better than 50/50 2.0.

[Leonard Washington]

We barely knew how to use him when we had him. I think he’s happy to have someone who will toss it up. Kirk and Alex aren’t those type of QBs. 

[Renegade7]

3 hours ago, Chachie said:

 

 

I see your point.

 

My "we weren't winning" comment was just meant to express that we were so mediocre that he alone could not save us, even as a piece of the puzzle. Our problems were (and are probably STILL) to great to worry about having him around now. 

 

I wanted DeSean when we first got him. I defended him here on ES when others hated him. I grew over time to see their points about his worth or lack there of. He wasn't setting Tampa on fire with Winston so he's probably benefitting from Fitzpatrick's presence. However, like Fitz does everywhere he goes, his magic will fade after the Bucs name him the true starter. 

 

I haven't watched them play yet, the highlight are jus him getting open and Fitz getting him the ball.  Alex could do that.  I don't think what Fitz is doing matters, Winston will be back in before he cools off, them we see if that offense can keep it up.  The point being, he's still flying by people and catching bombs.

 

For the people that stand by the decisions because of the money, would y'all not give DJax the contract the Bucs gave him?  It's a valid question on where did the money go, we walked into this season with close $10 million in cap space.

[SkinsFTW]

Did anybody miss him last year? Even when Jordan Reed went down for 14 games and Crowder was fumbling everything and Thompson missed games with the entire OL out somehow the offense kept on working better than the one we saw Sunday. This receiving "corpse" was supposed to be shaping up. Just look at the epic thread on the topic.

 

Now we have a QB that can't make anything at all happen without elite receivers and our need of elite receivers becomes the major sticking point with the offense. Oh and the OL sucks too.

 

But they saved money at qb. Which they really didn't do that either. They just overpaid for Alex.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

15 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

But they saved money at qb. Which they really didn't do that either. They just overpaid for Alex.

 

It’s the only thing we’ve been good at over the last 25 years. We excel at making a bad decision and then continuing to make that one decision exponentially worse and worse until everything implodes  

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

Duh.....

[Est.1974]

I think Grudens scheme misses him. However, he was way overpaid so he was not going to be able to justify the deal he eventually got.