Burgold

Redskins receiving corp is beginning to shape up

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1 minute ago, Peregrine said:

I mean, not that one can predict the crazy decisions this staff makes, but considering how weak the receiving core has been for years, it would be beyond strange to ditch your #1 receiver right before the season starts.  That would literally leave a receiving core of 6 receivers who had a combined 330 yards last year, and 1 with more than 100 in his career. Talk about setting up a new QB behind an already depleted Oline up for failure.

 

When did we get one of those?

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Posted (edited)

I heard Galdi the other day name off Richardson's injury history... my lord.

 

Lets just say I am taking the under on whatever his expected games played is set at.   Who knows, maybe he starts the year on IR if he re-aggravates the quad in practice, or if he gets into any action this preseason, which fits all the kiddies safely in. AC last year (week 1, of ****ing course) and Quad more recently.

 

https://www.richmond.com/washingtonpost/sports/speedy-redskins-receiver-paul-richardson-jr-toeing-the-line-between/article_b61e54be-06ab-59f5-b4cf-ea86a7b70360.html

 

 

Edited by RandyHolt

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Wasn't there a rumor on here about Pitt being linked with Richardson? We also have Doctson being shopped in advance of being cut I would suggest. Plus we must have a major concern over Jordan Reed moving forward. How the hell is he going to absorb any substantial hits?

 

We have a handful of very promising young players. At some stage, we need a #1. Surprise trade or 2020 draft. We need one though.

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Posted (edited)

I feel like we are a few select injuries on offense from being the worse offense/team in the league.  Of course that can likely be said of many teams. But I wonder if many games lost by our skill position on offense over the recent year(s) is telling, relative to other teams. I will put Doc Sims Guice Quinn Reed and Richardson among the league leaders. And those are our "vets".  What team is counting on guys that lost more games than us. Honorable mention to our retained med staff.

 

Again, last year was a clear and obvious change in direction for the team. We had Mo Quinn and Sims on our opening roster and Davis just missed. I cannot ever recall a bigger youth movement and sure they all crashed and burned via injury but we went 6-2 baby. We wanted a youth movement and all signs point to that continuing. Jay will need to be on point in all he does to survive. Maybe starting our 5 best run blockers on the OL is a wise move :ols:

 

Case is a proven guy but I have a hunch Haskins and his big arm will be needed to get the most out of this WR group.

 

 

Edited by RandyHolt

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1 hour ago, KDawg said:

 

When did we get one of those?

Ever heard of a depth chart or are you new to the sport?  Just asking for a friend.

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19 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Ever heard of a depth chart or are you new to the sport?  Just asking for a friend.

 

Brand new to the sport. Please explain how it all works to me.

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Posted (edited)

Continuity and chemistry seem to be a thing between QB and WR but somehow I can complete passes in parking lot pickup games with drunk strangers so what do I know.

 

I feel like without high profile WR injuries in preseason week 3, that the near non existent trade market for Doctson officially totally dried up.  I just cannot fully digest starting him last week and cutting him as being smart moves. We should SEE more proof that he will likely be cut, not simply be told it, for all of us to buy in.

Edited by RandyHolt

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Chris Thompson is the kind of player that could help a good team be a great team, or a great team become even more dangerous.........except he can't stay healthy which severely devalues him. 

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I completely understand the argument against going into the season with a severe lack of experience at the receiver position.  With that said, I think practice matters.  If Doctson is getting outperformed in practice, how much does it really matter that the youngsters have less NFL production?

More specifically, if the young guys are blocking better, getting open more often, running routes better and catching the ball at a higher rate... how is it more important to hang on to Doctson?  

I would add Richardson, but he’s almost certainly too expensive to cut.  

 

And this is coming from someone who’s probably less down on Doctson than most.  

 

These guys are young, yes, but it’s Davis’ 3rd year, Quinn and McLaurin are surprisingly polished, Harmon has drawn rave reviews throughout camp, Kidsey is a steady Eddie type that can play anywhere, and Sims offers a similar skill set to Doctson.  I also question Doctson’s blocking and ability/desire to play ST.  

 

The only real real compelling reason to keep Doctson, IMO, is in the hopes it all comes together for him and we get a comp pick when he leaves in FA.  

 

I’ll fully admit that my perspective is colored by potential.  Doctson has been given every chance to showcase his, and I think it’s time for these other guys to get the same treatment.

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34 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I completely understand the argument against going into the season with a severe lack of experience at the receiver position.  With that said, I think practice matters.  If Doctson is getting outperformed in practice, how much does it really matter that the youngsters have less NFL production?

More specifically, if the young guys are blocking better, getting open more often, running routes better and catching the ball at a higher rate... how is it more important to hang on to Doctson?  

I would add Richardson, but he’s almost certainly too expensive to cut.  

 

And this is coming from someone who’s probably less down on Doctson than most.  

 

These guys are young, yes, but it’s Davis’ 3rd year, Quinn and McLaurin are surprisingly polished, Harmon has drawn rave reviews throughout camp, Kidsey is a steady Eddie type that can play anywhere, and Sims offers a similar skill set to Doctson.  I also question Doctson’s blocking and ability/desire to play ST.  

 

The only real real compelling reason to keep Doctson, IMO, is in the hopes it all comes together for him and we get a comp pick when he leaves in FA.  

 

I’ll fully admit that my perspective is colored by potential.  Doctson has been given every chance to showcase his, and I think it’s time for these other guys to get the same treatment.

 

This is exactly where I stand. It's crazy risky but Jay has to win this year and needs to select the best players to do so, previous production be damned. This is the group that excites me and scares me the most lol.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Yep. It was a dumb signing in retrospect from my perspective.  I've been decent (more hits then misses) at calling good FA's and bad signings in advance.  Richardson is a big miss on my end.  I was tantalized by adding speed to a receiver corp at the time that had little of it.  He has good hands, too.   But his injury history, including 2 ACL tears was atrocious.  Then you add that the dude looks as thin as it gets -- its not hard to see why he gets hurt.

 

On another note, I listened to Finlay's podcast with Copeland and Keim about the roster.  As to receivers:

 

A.  They think Doctson likely makes the roster and if he doesn't it's unlikely to be a cut.  More likely a trade.

B.  They see C. Sims and Harmon as slam dunk making it.

C.  Combined they have mixed opinion about whether Davis makes it. 

 

Finlay said he asked someone in the FO if he thinks Doctson has a breakthrough season and they responded for which team?  Then Keim kicked in that people are mixed about Doctson in the FO.  Sheehan talked about what he heard about Doctson today and he said the prime beef with people at Redskins Park about Doctson is that he doesn't have that competitive-love football type of drive.

 

I think it was Keim (he didn't say this part on that podcast) among others who have said there are some in the FO who think Doctson is a good player but won't be a good player here from the combination of it not being a good scheme for him and he could use a fresh start.

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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@Skinsinparadise In your defense, we signed Richardson before Quinn, Sims, Harmon and McLaurin, and we had Crowder going into his final year and Doctson having not shown much of anything.  We were desperate for some talent.  

 

Having said that, giving that contract (particularly the guaranteed portion) considering his injury history was a pretty bad deal.  

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1 minute ago, skinny21 said:

@Skinsinparadise In your defense, we signed Richardson before Quinn, Sims, Harmon and McLaurin, and we had Crowder going into his final year and Doctson having not shown much of anything.  We were desperate for some talent.  

 

Having said that, giving that contract (particularly the guaranteed portion) considering his injury history was a pretty bad deal.  

 

Richardson was good in his FA year with Seattle so I was taken by that.  He's also relatively young.  And yeah we didn't have the receivers we got now.   But thinking about it now, I think lesson learned as to signing players with major injury histories.  Football is unpredictable so anyone can get hurt -- but guys who have been prone to get hurt throughout their career often stay on that track. 

 

Casserly (who I often don't agree with) said it well not long ago which is the Redskins more than most teams have too many key players being injury prone who are also vital ones to their success. 

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1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

I completely understand the argument against going into the season with a severe lack of experience at the receiver position.  With that said, I think practice matters.  If Doctson is getting outperformed in practice, how much does it really matter that the youngsters have less NFL production?

More specifically, if the young guys are blocking better, getting open more often, running routes better and catching the ball at a higher rate... how is it more important to hang on to Doctson?  

I would add Richardson, but he’s almost certainly too expensive to cut.  

 

And this is coming from someone who’s probably less down on Doctson than most.  

 

These guys are young, yes, but it’s Davis’ 3rd year, Quinn and McLaurin are surprisingly polished, Harmon has drawn rave reviews throughout camp, Kidsey is a steady Eddie type that can play anywhere, and Sims offers a similar skill set to Doctson.  I also question Doctson’s blocking and ability/desire to play ST.  

 

The only real real compelling reason to keep Doctson, IMO, is in the hopes it all comes together for him and we get a comp pick when he leaves in FA.  

 

I’ll fully admit that my perspective is colored by potential.  Doctson has been given every chance to showcase his, and I think it’s time for these other guys to get the same treatment.

If a WR can run, catch and get open I don't over value the experience factor. That's the coaches job to figure out how to get them comfortable and productive in a hurry. Doctson has lots of NFL experience but doesn't seem to have a leg up on any of our young guys. Coach em up and run them out there....they will be fine if they have the skill set. Can't wait to see McClaurin, Sims, Simms Jr, Davis and Quinn do their thing. 

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Posted (edited)

Heads will explode if an unproductive Doctson retains the starters job all season.  Starting with mine.

 

I cannot recall a more perplexing roster decision. Old school thinking says you need some vet WRs.  And healthy ones at that. Last year Rich Sims and Quinn all got hurt in the first game. Mo Harris concussed PSWK4.  Davis injured right before that. So without overthinking it he was our only healthy WR all year. And until someone proves otherwise, it points to a good idea to retain him. 

 

All that is complicated by the fact we said we don't want him in 5 months. And we drafted 2 WRs that we obviously like a lot. And, we find out we have been trying to trade him for 2 years?? I have never heard of such a thing.  If there is no demand for a guy, why do we want him?  And why in the world does Bruce keep trying??

 

WR is a mess and it starts with not even knowing if we want our #1, or not.  We don't know if we will cut him, trade him, or make him Case's top target. The Dyskinsfunction Express is rolling early this year.

Edited by RandyHolt
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Article about Haskins that has a nice plug for McLaurin

 

https://beta.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/08/28/dwayne-haskins-isnt-ready-start-redskins-coaches-are-happy-with-where-hes/

Sometimes you want to push him to show some emotion,” O’Connell added. “[You want him] to show some of those young guys in the huddle with him that it’s okay for you to lead that group, it’s okay for you to lead by example.”

O’Connell pointed out that in college, Haskins had players like wide receiver Terry McLaurin, whom the Redskins drafted two rounds after Haskins, to help with leading his Ohio State teammates. In the NFL, O’Connell said, the pressure will be on Haskins to lead Washington himself. So much power is placed in the quarterback’s hands, they have no choice but to display it.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

WR is a mess and it starts with not even knowing if we want our #1, or not.  We don't know if we will cut him, trade him, or make him Case's top target. The Dyskinsfunction Express is rolling early this year.

 

Our #1 what? I was only half joking earlier in the thread when I asked if we had one...

 

#1 is such a vague term. There are technically 3 actual receiver positions in the NFL: Flanker, Split End and Slot. All are fairly vital to modern offenses. When you go 4 or 5 wide you start getting into the depth chart a bit more. But ideal you have, from a pure depth chart perspective, 3 #1 receivers. a #1 X, a #1 Z and a #1 H.

 

Typically, people like to say #1 receiver to mean the best receiver on the team - but if this is the case - why do people even remotely consider Doctson to be the best receiver on the team? Just experience? If so, I'd give the nod to Richardson. Veteran status with the Skins? Okay. Fine. But why does that make him the best receiver?

 

I'm not trying to nitpick you, Randy. You're a guy who understands the game, for sure. I just would love to understand why people think Doctson is a number 1 receiver on this team other than his depth chart position in his specific receiver slot (and he may not even be that!)...

Edited by KDawg
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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Our #1 what? I was only half joking earlier in the thread when I asked if we had one...

 

#1 is such a vague term.

 

I understand.  I think James Thrash was our #1 for a few years. Slim Pickens.

 

#1 to me is the go to WR when the game is on the line, and you need 10 yards. It is the widely accepted best overall WR on the roster.  When you go 13 or 22, its him out there.

 

To me a #1 is never a low volume deep threat. And short of a being a QB favorite or target beast, it's not a slot guy. Our's hasn't even had 10 career catches :ols:

 

I keep saying it my fantasy advice guy says Doctson is someone to watch on our roster (value factored in).  Basically, the only one to watch - Guice/AP aside.

 

Edited by RandyHolt

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I understand.  I think James Thrash was our #1 for a few years.

 

#1 to me is the go to WR when the game is on the line, and you need 10 yards. It is the widely accepted best overall WR on the roster.  When you go 13 or 22, its him out there.

 

To me a #1 is never a low volume deep threat. And short of a being a QB favorite or target beast, it's not a slot guy. Our's hasn't even had 10 career catches :ols:

 

I keep saying it my fantasy advice guy says Doctson is someone to watch on our roster (value factored in).  Basically, the only one to watch - Guice/AP aside.

 

 

If this is the case though, Jamison Crowder, a slot guy, would have been our number 1 receiver last season. 

 

And, to me, if you're giving it to the best go to guy, it's more about pass catcher than it is receiver... and at that point I'd say: Jordan Reed, Vernon Davis, Chris Thompson are all currently higher on the list. If you're just going receiver, I'm not sure we have  #1 in the definition you gave. I think that's something you can gauge better when you have a returning QB... But we have two new QBs so really, at least in my opinion, I'm not sure we have a #1 guy at the moment until we see the chemistry get established.

 

This is why the guy is totally expendable. He hasn't really had chemistry with any of the 800 QBs we've had here. 

Edited by KDawg

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

If this is the case though, Jamison Crowder, a slot guy, would have been our number 1 receiver last season. 

 

And, to me, if you're giving it to the best go to guy, it's more about pas catcher than it is receiver... and at that point I'd say: Jordan Reed, Vernon Davis, Chris Thompson are all currently higher on the list. If you're just going receiver, I'm not sure we have  #1 in the definition you gave. I think that's something you can gauge better when you have a returning QB... But we have two new QBs so really, at least in my opinion, I'm not sure we have a #1 guy at the moment until we see the chemistry get established.

Yep - all good points.  Despite my preference I refuse to call Jordan Reed or CT receivers but I wish they lined up there the lions share of the time. I call them 'hands guys'.

Calling him #1 adds emphasis to the insanity that many are projecting us to cut who is projected to be a starting WR.   Here is one sites projected fantasy points.... Trey Quinn is our preseason #1!

 

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Edited by RandyHolt

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31 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Richardson was good in his FA year with Seattle so I was taken by that.  He's also relatively young.  And yeah we didn't have the receivers we got now.   But thinking about it now, I think lesson learned as to signing players with major injury histories.  Football is unpredictable so anyone can get hurt -- but guys who have been prone to get hurt throughout their career often stay on that track. 

 

Casserly (who I often don't agree with) said it well not long ago which is the Redskins more than most teams have too many key players being injury prone who are also vital ones to their success. 

The whole desperation angle is the key point for me.  It’s why we got Richardson, and why guys like Whitehurst and Osweiler were given big contracts.  Should be a cautionary tale for anyone.   

 

Good point about injuries of course.  It’s funny, but even though we have a bunch of receivers that have dealt with injuries, I don’t really care that Doctson was our healthiest (this point goes to @RandyHolt too).  If we cut Doctson, and any of these guys go down, I don’t see such a drop off in talent (as of yet).  Next man up.  

29 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

If a WR can run, catch and get open I don't over value the experience factor. That's the coaches job to figure out how to get them comfortable and productive in a hurry. Doctson has lots of NFL experience but doesn't seem to have a leg up on any of our young guys. Coach em up and run them out there....they will be fine if they have the skill set. Can't wait to see McClaurin, Sims, Simms Jr, Davis and Quinn do their thing. 

Yeah, that’s the bottom line for me.  Is Doctson demonstrably better than the other guys?   Ok, yes, he has more NFL production, but it’s not ‘good’ production.  If the others are more intriguing to coaches or look better in practice, then I don’t see a reason to stick with a Doctson.  Particularly as he’s a FA after the season (and our 2nd highest paid receiver I presume).   

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I'm comfortable saying we haven't had a #1 WR since Garcon was in his heyday.  Still dont have one.

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I've said it multiple times, but still think it's a bit perplexing that Doctson has outproduced every Redskins draft pick since Rod Gardner (from 2001) but one (Crowder) and people want to run him out of town when he's still on a cheap rookie deal. Yeah I somewhat get it, Doctson hasn't live up to being a first round pick. Fine. But I think people vastly overestimate any young WRs based their "potential". Technically every young WR has "potential", but even on the sliding scale of potential, the Redskins' receivers aren't exactly oozing with it. 26 WRs were drafted before Robert Davis in 2017, 32 before Quinn in 2018, 33 before Sims in 2018 (and potentially more since he was undrafted), 11 before McLaurin in 2019, and 22 before Harmon in 2019. There's a lot of other young WRs on other teams that the league viewed as having more potential. And most of them will bust.

 

And yeah, I get that not everything is dictated be draft position. Doctson alone proves that. And people can point to some late round WR successes over the years - Marvin Jones as a 5th rounder, Stefon Diggs as a 5th rounder, Adam Thielen as an undrafted player, Antonio Brown as a 6th rounder, or Julian Edelman in the 7th. So it does happen. But those guys are the exception rather than the rule. You can look at the graveyard of failed picks here: http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?position=WR&type=position. It's like thinking because Tom Brady was a 6th round pick that anyone can find a franchise QB in the 6th round every year. It could happen, but it probably won't.

 

I state Doctson's production not so much to defend Doctson, but temper expectations on young WRs. People act like Harmon or Sims or Davis or McLaurin are solutions and not a single one of them has taken an NFL offensive snap. No one know if they're any good if they haven't taken an NFL snap. Quinn has barely taken NFL snaps between a bevy of injuries. Ditto for Richardson on the injuries. It's entirely possibly all of these players never pan out and/or are injured. And that a 500 yard season would be a career high. Obviously, as a fan, i hope that's not the case. That someone or multiple people emerge. But, if I'm basing my expectations on realism and history, odds are that most of these young guys flame out. So I wouldn't be quick to throw away a semi-proven guy. Or, you know, i can believe that Bruce Allen has outsmarted everyone and all these young late round picks are just studs in the making and we can dump Doctson for nothing. One seems realistic, the other an opium fueled pipe dream that basically relies on Bruce Allen finding late round gem after late round gem at historic levels.

 

If the team cut Doctson, he'd be claimed off waivers in a heartbeat. Probably by Arizona. And for a team that might have the worst WR corps in the league, it shouldn't be cutting WRs that other teams are claiming off waivers.

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Doctson has no passion for the game! And probably no love for this team. Trade him or cut him! No need to have this dude wasting a roster spot when his heart ain't in it. Let one of the hungry young guys take that spot and see what we have. 

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McLaren, Harmon, Quinn, Simms and Davis. Those are the guys I want to see. They don’t have experience but there is at least an unknown about them. Doctson and Richardson do nothing for me.

 

 

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